Did Yoda's lightsaber battle diminish his credibility?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Anakin_Kenobi, Nov 27, 2002.

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  1. Anakin_Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 1
    I've heard a lot of complaints about this. Sure, it was all fun to see and all, but was it really needed? Some say yes, and some say no. I really can't decide right now, so I'll let the discussion aid in my decision.
  2. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    Well, I could see the story working without Yoda battling Dooku, but I loved the scene. Yoda's Bruce Lee pose, the speed, I loved it all. It was alot of fun to watch. And I did indeed see why Yoda was the Master. Of course, that was only contributed to the fact that he could deflect force lightning :D
  3. Anakin_Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 1
    I don't know about us being shown him as a master; I mean, he didn't even get a hit on Dooku, who was obviously stalling and just wanted to get out of there. Some of Yoda's hits didn't even connect with Dooku's saber, and no matter how much spinning he did, Dooku didn't even seem phased, even though he battled twojedi just before. Besides, after the fight, Yoda looked disappointed, and I'm sure it wasn't just because he let Dooku escape.
  4. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    Yoda trained Dooku personally, which would make him automatically stronger in the force. Plus he had 10 years of Sith training, which only added to his skills. He was once on the Jedi council as well. I could see why Dooku would be a good match for Yoda.

    But if you recall, even though Dooku wanted to leave, he was willing to fight his old Master. He could have run off, but he chose to fight Yoda. In the end, Yoda wore him down after only a minute, and Dooku "cheated" his way out of the duel by putting Obi-Wan and Anakin at risk to escape.
  5. Anakin_Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 1
    *looks around*

    Is anyone else going to reply here? Geez.....

    LOL

    Anyway:

    "In the end, Yoda wore him down after only a minute, and Dooku "cheated" his way out of the duel by putting Obi-Wan and Anakin at risk to escape. "

    Actually, if you remember, it was Yoda who had to take a breath after saying "Fought well, you have"; Dooku seemed full of energy, giving the fact that he used the force to collapse the collum and ran to his ship. Besides, Dooku said that this "was just the beginning", meaning that he knew(Dooku)didn't have enough time to fight him, because the Clone Army was advancing, and he couldn't fight them all on his own.
  6. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "Yoda trained Dooku personally, which would make him automatically stronger in the force."

    not nessesarily, obi-wan was more powerful then qui-gon, and anakin more powerful then obi-wan.

    Personally I do think it takes away from Yoda character, I've take a ot of heat on this which is why I was hesitant to post. But to me we need not see yoda fight, and it jsut makes the whole thing seem jokey to me, a cheap attempt to pander to the common audience who like fear factor and Armageddon. Sure yoda probably has fought in his career, but do we need to see it? Not in my opinion, its better left mysterious. Now I'm worried were oging to get some ridiculous palpatine saber duel in ep3. :(


    You can explain away Yoda sudden speed with the saying he's using hte foce, but that just seems like a cop out to me. The force has become to much of an excuse for ridiculous physics in the PT, the so called 'SW physics' were not nearly as present in the OT. If the fight had remained a wizards battle it would have been better but in general the fight seems out of context, it doesn't really make a satisfactory ending to the movie because yoda is not the main character.
  7. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    <<If the fight had remained a wizards battle it would have been better but in general the fight seems out of context>>

    Out of context???

    The scene takes place after two OTHER lightsaber duels! It could not be MORE in context.

    -Otis
  8. Ret Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 1999
    star 6
    Hopefully Palpy will just stick to the lightning.
  9. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
    I don't think it ruins his character at all.So what he spins around when he fights.Oh no why god why!!!That's how he fights big deal.
    The duel wasn't needed, but I think it was quite entertaining and informative.

  10. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    not nessesarily, obi-wan was more powerful then qui-gon, and anakin more powerful then obi-wan

    How do you know Obi-Wan was more powerful than Qui-Gon? :confused:
  11. Anakin_Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 1
    "How do you know Obi-Wan is more powerful than Qui-Gon?"

    I guess because he beat Darth Maul and is still alive. But some say that Obi tapped into the dark side to beat him, while Qui-Gon stayed in the Light Side throughout the battle. It can be argued both ways, though.
  12. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    Well I just meant that qui-gons fighting style seemed a bit more rigid and tired, which naturally progresses to old ben in ANH,

    but now we have dooku who is older then old ben and yoda who is even older who both fight better then anyone else, so the whole getting old thing doesn't really apply any more.

    "Out of context???"

    Yoda coming in to fight dooku makes as much sense as Mace coming in, they are secondary characters, with only a hand full of scenes which are also secondary to the main story.It would make more sense for padme to show up and help them. (dramtically speaking) As a viewer the first pay-off i'm looking for in the story is to see ob1 kill Jango, and the second is to see anakin, or anakin adn obi-wan fight dooku. Yoda doesn't even figure into it, its not his story
  13. JediScott Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 1
    Maybe Lucas is setting us up for Ep. III. It is possible he needed to show Obi-wan and Anakin getting beaten by Dooku to set up the Ep. III battle for Anakin and Dooku. However, had he left Anakin and Obi-Wan by themselves, Dooku would have killed them. So, Yoda needed to come in and save them.

    If you look at it from that point of view, Yoda fighting is not only in context, it is NECESSARY.
  14. ksid Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2002
    star 4
    Not neccessarily, I'll give you an example, in Empire, Darth Vader fights Luke, injures him (Chops his hand off) and then Luke comes back again to fight him in Rotj.

    If we're talking about recurring themes, A similar thing could have happened with the Dooku -> Obi-Wan -> Anakin triangle.

    Although, I do understand what many of the fans of the scene are talking about as well.

    It's just that I'm of the opinion with Rebelscumb, that the fight didn't have to be.

    It's just that the Emperor and Yoda are two of the most powerful force users in the galaxy, it would have been better to retain their mystique.

    Just MHO. I respect yours.
  15. Darkwish Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2001
    star 4
    Not at all. It was a great scene.

  16. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    thanks ksid, I agree, it would have been better to wonder 'what if?'
  17. JediScott Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 1
    ksid

    Your point is well taken. Perhaps Padme could have shown up with a bunch of clone troopers and Dooku would have been forced to leave.

    I guess I am biased because it was cool seeing Yoda fight. I guess we can only hope Lucas makes it fit somehow in the next movie.
  18. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    Yeah, thats my point as well, its not that as its own thing it isn't cool, but does it serve the story?
  19. ksid Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2002
    star 4
    JediScott and Darkwish I agree with you it was a good scene to watch.

    We're just speculating here.

  20. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    Had Lucas filmed two different version of the Yoda fight: one with the wild one, and another with a more restrained, yet powerful Yoda style, I think more people here who are gushing over the wild Yoda would also like, (or love even more) the more restrained one.

    Thematically, I agree if Yoda's fight was scrapped in favor of developing Anakin further, it would definitely improve the story. I found Dooku and Yoda way too underdeveloped in AOTC. I know there's an EP3, I just wanted a little more substance to them in this film.

    And the reason people love the Yoda/Dooku fight is because Yoda was well-devloped in ESB and ROTJ. Had the OT not existed, the impact and "excitement" of seeing the Yoda fight with Dooku would lessen dramatically. "Huh -- why is this tertiary character coming in? He just teaches Jedi Kids how to fight and acts way too smugly in TPM. What does he know?"
  21. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    The fact that half of the audience broke into applause when Yoda made his appearance before Dooku (during an IMAX showing) and one guy cried out, "All right, Yoda!", only leads me to believe that his lightsaber battle DID NOT diminish Yoda's credibility.
  22. ksid Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2002
    star 4
    Time will tell....

    That was also my momentary reaction when I saw the scene for the first time.

    We're all in agreement that it was a cool scene to watch.

    If you read the opening post to the thread, it says "but was it really needed?"

    We're just discussing here, what could have been and how it could have been.

    No need to call the AOTC defence force ;) :p :)
  23. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    I could have done without the Bruce Lee pose, that was stupid.

    Ciou-See the Sig
  24. Destined-to-Fall Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2002
    star 2
    First of all I loved that entire scene. And I do think it was a pretty important part of the story. Right from the begining Anakin had thought he could out match Yoda, and inside I think a lot of us agreed with him. After seeing him fight with Dooku however, we all know there is no way he could compete. (YET) I think this scene was to show us how powerful Yoda really was because before this time, we had never really been witnesses to his abilities. In our minds we would think, 'sure, Yoda's the man because everyone told us he was the greatest master ever.' but know we have been shown it and we really do believe.
    Am I making sence? I don't think so, so I am just going to stop now...

    Chosen to Rise - Destined to Fall
  25. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "The fact that half of the audience broke into applause when Yoda made his appearance before Dooku (during an IMAX showing) and one guy cried out, "All right, Yoda!", only leads me to believe that his lightsaber battle DID NOT diminish Yoda's credibility."

    but do remember that 80% of the average movie going audience is made up of idiots. People who watch lame game shows and soap operas, and play the lotto every week in desperate attempts to flee their crappy jobs. Most of these people are not SW fans, and they are just as much laughing at SW as they are with it. They don't care how the saga comes together as a whole they only care about 2 hours of enjoyment. Heck a lot of people thought Jake Lloyd was suppose to be young luke in TPM.

    By brother in law works at a blockbuster video store, and he says he gets more complaints about AOTC then any other movie, people bringing it back and calling it "compelte crap" and wanting their money back. He knew I was a SW fan and felt it important to tell me this, for some reason.

    Giving people what they want is not nessesarily for the good of the movie as a whole. If GL took a poll and asked "how many people want to see C3P0 rap in ep3?" I'm sure at least 50% would vote yes. General audiences not fans. "Who wants to padme fight like the matrix?" again, at least 50%. and to me thats what yoda fighting feels like. Maybe it does fit with his character, I don't agree, but giving it the benefit of the doubt, even if it wasn't the intent it jsut feels like another crouching tiger/matrix parody ala Shrek, scary movie and a dozen other films.
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