Did Yoda's lightsaber battle diminish his credibility?

To me, art is art for art's sake, not for the audience.

I don't mean to be rude, but this sounds like a great topic for another thread.

Unless you are arguing that Yoda should have given up the lightsaber for a paint brush, I guess it's a bit too offtopic to be in this discussion.

 

^^LOL I know, I know! My fault, I'll take responsibility for this one. Please, continue....

 

Actually it's a great discussion, I think you should make it into a thread (add something Ep. II related) to it so we can keep it here. I have very strong opinions on that one (artist and audience reaction).

 

If you want to discuss art, I'd suggest that you visit The Amphitheatre, which is described as the following:

Discuss and debate music, art, literature, dramatic works (film, theater, TV) and cultural topics with your fellow Jedi Council members. Please visit the Welcome Thread before posting.

 

augusto...

A warrior should use the most effective weapon available. For the "enlightened" Jedi the most powerful weapon they have is the Force itself.

Notice the progression of the Sith lightning attacks in AOTC. Anakin, the most inexperienced of the three, gets the smackdown from the lightning. He has no clue how to defend himself against it. Obi-Wan uses his saber to deflect the bolts. Finally, there is Yoda. No lightsaber needed. He uses his internal power to block the attack.

BTW, this is by far the best discussion I have been a part of for many a moon. Thanks.

 

"You mean like George Lucas, who strives to create the films he sees in his head within a budget that will not break the bank?"

Yeah, but he also admits he's unrestricted. $120 mill is not exactly a modest budget, and I'm not holding it against him, the money is definitly all on the screen and then some. I just wish it was on the page a bit more.

I was more just making an example.

 

"they are everywhere, when it comes to making a film, not just with the budget. What I'm trying to say is that GL has got plenty of obstacles. Whether it be with the script, the actors, the FX, anything. I'm sure they were poping up everywhere."

Agreed, I thinkt he thing is for me, that GL doesn't have to make a great SW film for it to be a huge hit, so there's less pressure nagging him. Not that the PT is junk, but even if it was it would still sell at least $200 mill.

Plus he doesn't have to answer to anyone. I just find its better for the filmmaker to be the rebel instead of the establishment.
ANd GL is rebelling in his own way, but its all technical, with his digital evolution. Which is why the sfx are easily the best part of the PT, while the story suffers IMHO.

"To me, art is art for art's sake, not for the audience. When I write, I write what I like. If others like it, I'm happy. If no one wants to read it... well, that sucks, but I don't change it."

agreed, I write same way. But some of the recent projects I've worked on, as editor and DOP, we always workshop the script endlessly, right into the editting, and I don't reallyg et that sense from the ranch. Since Gl can grenlight his own scripts before they are even finished. I mean, no matter what stage the script is in, GL can push the go button and make SW if he wants to, does that make any sense.

 

Ok, to wrap up one of my world famous triloy posts I'm going to steer back on topic.

I would jsut like a consesus, would those of you who like the yoda fight and see know problem with it have any objection to a palpatine saber battle in ep3?

If not, why?

 

A warrior should use the most effective weapon available. For the "enlightened" Jedi the most powerful weapon they have is the Force itself.

OK, we can all agree that for all Jedi, the most effective weapon is the force.

Where we disagree is in your interpretation that use of a lightsaber is a less enlightened form of force usage, than "using the force". But what does using the force mean? It means a lot of things. The main one is, "trusting the force", "following one's feelings" (guided by the force).

So tossing an object via the force, and skillfully using a lightsabre are "usages" of the force.

The best thing an "enlightened" Jedi must do is to TRUST the Force, as was releaved in the OT.

As I said before, trusing the force means different things. In ANH, it meant not using the targetting system and letting the force help Luke aim. In lightsabre battles, is to let yourself be guided by the force, instead of your sight.

In AOTC, it mean Yoda tossing objects, catching lighting with his hand, and then using a sabre.

Yoda trusted, and used the force in AOTC. I don't see what you mean. Maybe you mean Dooku takes out the lightsabre, and Yoda tosses his? What does Yoda do then, just stand there and get killed like OB1 in ANH?

I don't think that makes much sense.

Again, Luke's situation was VERY different from that of Yoda in AOTC. I think the conclusions you reached about the force after you watched ROTJ, where just the wrong ones.

 

Just a quick correction. I said:

[Yoda] fails to take advantage of moments when he could have crippled Dooku or damaged his ship, and fails to stop Dooku from escaping.

To which Durwood replied:

You're just assuming that it would be easy to cripple a ship. For all we know, a blast of Sith lightning could have harmlessly glanced off the hull.

Simple mistake, Durwood. The phrase was "cripple Dooku". I was refering to times during the lightsabre duel when he could have crippled Dooku. As for "assuming" that the Sith lightning could have damaged the ship, I'd say that wasn't a huge assumption, but that is beside the point. The point is that Yoda didn't even try to do it. So I'm once again left asking the question of why the duel shows that Yoda is " a master" when Yoda fails to stop Dooku leaving, fails to land a single blow on Dooku, fails to take advantage of numerous chances to stop Dooku and doesn't even attempt to damage his ship?

 

I am not saying that if you lay down the lightsaber, you are not going to fight.

My philosophy of the Force comes from Lucas' statements about SW being about not depending on technology, but using your inner strentgh to overcome obstacles. He speakes extensivly about this in the documentary "From SW to Jedi". He specifically uses the trench scene as an example. All I have done is extend that thought onto the lightsaber, which is, in fact, a piece of technology.

The problem I have is that the PT has made the Jedi seem much more dependent on the lightsaber.

OBI-WAN: "This weapon is your life!"

In ESB, Luke is never shown being trained with a lightsaber, even though I'm sure he was. Lucas focused more on the spirtiual side of the training. This is a storytelling choice that says to me, "Look, this is the important part of the training. This is what it is all about."

Look, I LOVE the lightsaber as much as anybody else, but at the end of the day, it is simply a man-made tool. In a story that is supposed to be about freeing yourself from the bonds of technology, it bothers me that the most heroic people are so dependant on a piece of technology.

 

Did Yoda's lightsaber battle diminish his credibility?


How the hell can Yoda saving two fellow jedi diminsh his credibility? [face_shocked]

 

I think a better way to put would be, "did it really add anything?"

 

Did Yoda's lightsaber battle diminish his credibility?


How the hell can Yoda saving two fellow jedi diminsh his credibility?

Sigh. Because he failed to stop Dooku? Because he failed to land a single blow on Dooku? Because he had opportunities to injure Dooku and instead chose to do a little spin instead? Because he failed to damage Dooku's ship? Because he didn't even attempt to damage Dooku's ship, even when he had a handful of Sith Lightning? Because he had recently landed on the planet with a army of clones and ships but choose to turn up alone when he faced Dooku?

Actually, why the hell did he go there alone? How did he get there? Did he fly his own ship? Did he not think it might be useful for clone ship to be there that could attack the Dooku's ship whilst he fought with Dooku?

His credibility is dimished in my eyes because I was always under the impression that he was a wise Jedi, whilst his duel with Dooku shows him to be rather thick.

 

whatever floats your boat JenX.

 

"I would jsut like a consesus, would those of you who like the yoda fight and see know problem with it have any objection to a palpatine saber battle in ep3? "



You know, m'lady, he couldn't fight anybody with a lightsaber. Its not in his character.

You bet your sweet bippy Id have a problem with it, man. Why? Because seeing Yoda wield a lightsaber didnt diminish his credibility. What did, is the fact that even busting out the lightsaber didnt score him a win. I loved that he fought with a saber. I hate that it didnt accomplish anything.

Whereas, just seeing that Sidy even CARRIES a lightsaber WOULD diminish HIS credibility.

 

What I mean is, I think a lightsaber is an absolute last resort for Yoda. The situation got so intense that he, the most powerful jedi, was actually forced to reach for his saber.




And he still didnt win.
So is he really that powerful after all? The way he wielded his saber makes it seem that way. Awesome!

But he lost.

and that = diminished credibility.

 

Why is it so hard to accept that Yoda learned from his mistakes in the PT?We all go through a learning process which spans from the day your born to your death.At one point in time Einstein couldn't calculate 2+2 but his credibility isn't diminished because of it.

"Because he had recently landed on the planet with a army of clones and ships but choose to turn up alone when he faced Dooku?"

Dooku is Yoda's former padawaan, so maybe the fight was personal for him,and he didn't want any interference from a ST.

I distinctly remember Obi doing the same thing in ANH."I must face him ALONE."

 

Why is it so hard to accept that Yoda learned from his mistakes in the PT?We all go through a learning process which spans from the day your born to your death.At one point in time Einstein couldn't calculate 2+2 but his credibility isn't diminished because of it.

I don't have a problem with people learning from their mistakes. I have a problem with a 900 year old Jedi Master who is supposed to be wise being shown to be quite stupid.

>>"Because he had recently landed on the planet with a army of clones and ships but choose to turn up alone when he faced Dooku?"<<

Dooku is Yoda's former padawaan, so maybe the fight was personal for him,and he didn't want any interference from a ST.

Okay, let's ignore all the other points I raised and focus on this one. If what you say is true then wise 900 year old Jedi Master Yoda is prepared to risk failure (which will lead to galactic war) because he feels the fight is personal??? And that doesn't diminish his credibility?

And he could still have his personal duel with Dooku whilst the clones take Dooku's ship to pieces.

I distinctly remember Obi doing the same thing in ANH."I must face him ALONE."

OB1 didn't do the same thing at all! OB1 was on a gigantic battlestation filled with Stormtroopers, and had a group of people with him who had to get the plans to the Death Star to the rebels. Darth Vader can sense his presence. There's no point in bringing anyone else along with him; they'll only hinder the main objective (getting the Millenium Falcon off the Death Star). In fact, when it looks like his duel with Darth Vader might hamper their escape (when Luke sees the duel and it looks like he might stay to intervene) OB1 stops fighting.

Whereas the opposite is the case with Yoda. He has to stop Dooku from escaping. Having other people around that could do damage to Dooku's ship would be an advantage!


It's scary...your explainations just make him look even worse! Maybe some questions are better left unanswered.

 

"I don't have a problem with people learning from their mistakes. I have a problem with a 900 year old Jedi Master who is supposed to be wise being shown to be quite stupid."

Well maybe he's not so wise in the PT.What I'm saying is your always learning.It doesn't matter if your 60 your still learning.

"There's no point in bringing anyone else along with him; they'll only hinder the main objective (getting the Millenium Falcon off the Death Star). In fact, when it looks like his duel with Darth Vader might hamper their escape (when Luke sees the duel and it looks like he might stay to intervene) OB1 stops fighting."

No point?Your chances of winning the duel would dramatically increase.Obis duel was personal.He could have gone with them to save leia, but he decided to resolve his issues with vader instead.They still could have escaped if he didn't duel vader.

"Whereas the opposite is the case with Yoda. He has to stop Dooku from escaping. Having other people around that could do damage to Dooku's ship would be an advantage!"

I just thought of something.Why didn't Vader take a band of ST with him?It would have been to his advantage.Also why didn't the ST shoot obi?They could of killed him, but they just decided to be spectators instead.

 

>>"I don't have a problem with people learning from their mistakes. I have a problem with a 900 year old Jedi Master who is supposed to be wise being shown to be quite stupid."<<

Well maybe is not so wise in the PT.What I'm saying is your always learning.It doesn't matter if your 60 your still learning.

Yes, maybe Yoda is still learning, but I'd still expect a wise Jedi Master to be intelligent enough to realise that using Sith Lightning on Dooku's ship might damage it. Or be intelligent to realise that having a few clone troopers around to damage the ship might be useful.

>>"There's no point in bringing anyone else along with him; they'll only hinder the main objective (getting the Millenium Falcon off the Death Star). In fact, when it looks like his duel with Darth Vader might hamper their escape (when Luke sees the duel and it looks like he might stay to intervene) OB1 stops fighting."<<

No point?Your chances of winning the duel would dramatically increase.Obis duel was personal.He could have gone with them to save leia, but he decided to resolve his issues with vader instead.They still could have escaped if he didn't duel vader.

Okay, read my last post again. OB1 primary objective is to get the Millenium Falcon out of the Death Star. Whilst he recognises the inevitability of having to face Darth Vader, his first concern is to deavticate the tractor beam. Being on a gigantic enemy battlestation this objective will be more easily achieved by sneeking around, something which is easier done when you are alone, rather then part of a group.

Furthermore if the group went, not only would they be more easily spotted, they would also have to go all the way back to the Millenium Falcon without getting caught. OB1 going off by himself means that, even if he gets caught on the way back, the others can still escape.

Also, dueling Darth Vader provided an obvious distraction to the troops who were near to the Millenium Falcon, allowing the others to escape. Go and watch ANH again if you don't believe me. And when OB1 sees that Luke might try to intervene, OB1 stops fighting.

Furthermore I think your recollection of ANH is faulty. If I remember correctly OB1 leaves Luke and the gang before R2D2 discovers that Leia is being held on the Death Star, so he didn't choose to settle his issues with Vader over saving Leia.

Editted to add:

>>"Whereas the opposite is the case with Yoda. He has to stop Dooku from escaping. Having other people around that could do damage to Dooku's ship would be an advantage!"<<

I just thought of something.Why didn't Vader take a band of ST with him?It would have been to his advantage.Also why didn't the ST shoot obi?They could of killed him, but they just decided to be spectators instead.

Well, I'd say that Darth Vader, having been almost totally consumed by the dark side, was eager to kill OB1 personally. Also being on a gigantic battlestation filled with soliders who would obey him meant that he felt kind of secure enough as it was.

But Yoda isn't consumed by the dark side, and he realises the consequences of letting Dooku escape, so I don't think equating his choices to those made by a Sith and a bunch of stormtroopers is particularly helpful (in fact, it just further diminishes Yoda if he makes the same choices as an arrogant hate fueled Sith).

 

"Why is it so hard to accept that Yoda learned from his mistakes in the PT?"

Because he's 900 years old!

"I dont care if your 60, youre still learning."

Yeah, but by 900 you should pretty much be experienced enough. There shouldnt be that much "learning from one's mistakes" between ages 900 and 930.

 

"Furthermore I think your recollection of ANH is faulty. If I remember correctly OB1 leaves Luke and the gang before R2D2 discovers that Leia is being held on the Death Star, so he didn't choose to settle his issues with Vader over saving Leia."

So you don't think Obi sensed that she was on the DS?Well if he didn't, then that certainly diminishes his credibility.

 

>>"Furthermore I think your recollection of ANH is faulty. If I remember correctly OB1 leaves Luke and the gang before R2D2 discovers that Leia is being held on the Death Star, so he didn't choose to settle his issues with Vader over saving Leia."<<

So you don't think Obi sensed that she was on the DS?Well if he didn't, then that certainly diminishes his credibility.


So, you admit your recollection of ANH was faulty, right?


Okay, well, the Death Star is the size of a small moon, so I'm not going to be too critical of OB1 if he can't sense Leia ( a person who he wasn't looking for and was of tertiary concern to him at the time). Furthermore he was trying to free the Millenium Falcon whilst trying to avoid drawing attention to himself, particularly the attention of a Sith Lord who happens to be his ex-apprentice and who can feel his presence.

Adding to that the other 7 points which apply to the Yoda/Dooku duel that don't apply to OB1 on the Death Star and I find that OB1 comes out of things with credibility intact.

None of which actually answers any of the points I raised about the actual topic, that being Yoda and the Yoda/Dooku duel. I'm sure that you will find the time to answer those points rather then continue to draw this thread onto a debate best held on the Classic Trilogy forum.

 

Why didn't Luke have Han come with him to fight Vader at Endor. Or Leia, for that matter. What about Chewie? Just because it was personal my butt. What a moron. Why didn't Qui-gon let the others help take out Maul? And look what it got Qui-gon, dead as a door nail. Obi-wan could've took Luke with him to shut off the tractor beam, or at the very least Han, who had combat experience. Talk about moronic and illogical thinking on his part. Dooku was Yoda's responsibility and he was going to take care of it. The Clones would've been wasted, hence his not using them.

The point of the duel was to show that Dooku was an expert swordsman. We already know that Dooku is the master of Form II and can out fight both Obi-wan and Anakin. His standing up to Yoda highlights that he is an opponet that's not easily beaten. Thus showcasing Anakin's desire to beat him in order to prove himself, was well as cementing his transformation into Vader.