Did Yoda's lightsaber battle diminish his credibility?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Anakin_Kenobi, Nov 27, 2002.

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  1. Mech-E_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 2
    What a good thread. Lots of room for debate here.

    Keep the comments coming Lemon and JenX. I'm on your side.

    Perhaps it's noteworthy to describe what I
    did imagine as the most powerful Jedi master.

    Given a little thought, the most powerful Jedi master would have no need for any physical weapons. Yoda alludes to this in ESB (" . . . not this crude matter.") This means that he would be able to fight and subdue someone who is attacking him with a lightsabre, defending himself with whatever is around - a rock, a stick, a box. He would be able to channel the Force into these objects and thereby block a lightsabre, a blaster, Sith lightning.

    If I let my mind wonder - I can imagine someone far more powerful than we've seen - yet I digress and stray from the subject.

    To me, (IMHO), the Jedi Master I believed Yoda to be is far different that the Jedi Master I was shown. Ergo, to me, his credibility is diminished.





    . . . just another drop in the bucket.
  2. DarthWeenie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2002
    star 4
    First of all, Id like to say Im pretty new to this discussion and Ive read all 10 pages. Oy!

    The way I see it is this:
    Yoda is the most potent force user in the galaxy at the point of epII. He has so much power at his disposal he probably hasnt been in a situation where it was actually neccesary to physically draw his saber. When he does, you KNOW its time to get down and get funky! He probably hasnt pulled it out (except for practice) in 100 years.

    When he does finally iginite it, it meets or exceeds what you would expect the most potent force user in the galaxy to be. So the fact that he yanks it out, (ahem, the lightsaber that is) doesnt diminish his credibility. We have never seen him in action before, and we never will again. Let him have his 28 seconds. (I timed it).

    Im much happier with those 28 seconds IN the SW saga, than I would be without. Im glad we got to see him in action, otherwise I always would have wondered what could have been...


  3. DarthWeenie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2002
    star 4
    If anything though, I think it diminishes GL's credibility. Episodes 1 and 2 are seem to be little more than the ultimate in fanfilms. GL isnt really doing whats right for the story, hes giving the audience what they want.

    The story calls for an ex-Jedi to be the Sith Apprentice(for reasons we'll see in ep3.) But WE the fanboys, have always wanted to see a double bladed saber. So he gives us Darth Maul real quick. REAL quick.

    We always wanted to see Yoda in action, Yoda comes out of nowhere, for no reason and kicks butt for 28 seconds. Did it change anything? Did Yoda make a dent in the badguys plans at all? Nope.

    We always wanted to see Boba Fett actually DO something. So he gives us Jango. Does it fit with the story? No, but it does give us a little more Fett action.

    The prequels are filled with tons of dues ex machinas (look it up if you dont know) that come out of nowhere and serve no purpose, and disappear within seconds. Literally a few seconds.

    All these EU ideas that we like as the fans, and kind of wanted to see. Like the two sabers at once, the double bladed saber, all the gadgets in the Fett armor, Yoda fighting, the list goes on and on.
  4. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
    "None of which actually answers any of the points I raised about the actual topic, that being Yoda and the Yoda/Dooku duel. I'm sure that you will find the time to answer those points rather then continue to draw this thread onto a debate best held on the Classic Trilogy forum."

    Those 2 duels have alot incommon and thats why I brought them up.

    Lets compare them shall we.

    Yoda and Vader both sense their former master/padawaans presence.

    They search for their former master/padawaan.

    They opt to fight them alone even though they have an ample amount of troops at their disposal.They both could destroy the former master/padawaans ship but they choose not to.

    So is Vaders credibility also diminished?He seems like a pretty intelligent guy but not landing a blow on your former master who is 60 something(when he killed him that doesn't count because obi let him do it)is inexcusable.

    There seems to be a double standard here.I'm sure JenX, that you'll come with a reason why that isn't so right?



  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Maul's saber was to do the duel differently. Makes doing a two on one fight, easier to choregraph (sp). Show's that the Sith are unconventual in their way of thinking, they don't conform. Dooku wasn't conforming when he designed his saber to have a curved handle and use a style that was no longer in use. Having a double-bladed saber had nothing to do with Maul's creation. Maul was to show us how Sidious gained control of Anakin. Evoultion with the rule of two in place.

    Lucas was the one who wanted to use Yoda like that. It's his idea, like everything else in the PT is his idea. A fan idea is thousands of Jedi and Sith fighting like in Braveheart. Not going to happen. A fan idea is Boba Fett leading the Mandalorians in an attack on the Jedi. Not going to happen. Lucas said that he is surprised by the popularity of Boba Fett from the OT's eu. His story was already in his mind since ESB, just needed to connect the dots.

    As to Yoda's statement about "not this crude matter", he's refering to muscles. Not using a Lightsaber. He told Luke that muscles do not make a Jedi, the Force does. Note that he also had Luke working out his muscles as well, so that there is a contradiction on his part. A Jedi is powerful without a saber, but even more so with one. Anakin had to surrender when Jango and the Geonosians had him in the crosshairs. Sure he could try to fight without it, but he would've wound up dead, along with Padme. Luke found out right away that he missed having his Lightsaber in the Rancor pit, but was able to make do without it as the Rancor was unarmed. Funny how Anakin and Padme don't need a weapon, but Obi-wan has to use a spear on the Acklay.
  6. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I was refering to times during the lightsabre duel when he could have crippled Dooku.

    As TheWombat so competently explained on page 9 of this thread, those opportunities to cripple Dooku that are so "obvious" are anything but. You say, "Yoda could have just ducked in and capped him in the kneecap," but that's assuming Dooku would just stand there and let him do so. Sure, Yoda could have darted in Dooku's apparent lapse in defense, but he could just as easily have gotten his head chopped off in the process.

    As for "assuming" that the Sith lightning could have damaged the ship, I'd say that wasn't a huge assumption, but that is beside the point. The point is that Yoda didn't even try to do it.

    Possibly because Yoda knew there was no point.

    As for why Yoda didn't run in with a bunch of clonetroopers armed to the teeth, it's because Dooku would have high-tailed it out of there for sure. By engaging Dooku in one on one combat, Yoda actually stood a better chance of defeating or at the very least stalling Dooku.

    So I'm once again left asking the question of why the duel shows that Yoda is " a master" when Yoda fails to stop Dooku leaving, fails to land a single blow on Dooku, fails to take advantage of numerous chances to stop Dooku and doesn't even attempt to damage his ship?

    Was the point of the duel necessarily to show that "Yoda is the master!"? That's what our good friend Rick McCallum said, sure, but he's an el-slicko Hollywood producer type and they tend to say things like that so I wouldn't go putting too much stock in it.
  7. ksid Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2002
    star 4
    Sure the Jedi are the Guardian's of peace and Justice in the Galaxy.

    And sure they might even be a religious order.

    But having Yoda fight with a lightsaber, just reduces him to the lowest common denominator.

    GL seems to be just giving the fanboys exactly what they want.


  8. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    <<GL seems to be just giving the fanboys exactly what they want.>>

    Or maybe he's telling the story HE wants.

    -Otis
  9. MJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2000
    star 2
    "I'm going to regret this." - C3P0.

    My 2 cents in defense of Yoda...

    Yoda blocked AND directed Dooku's Sith lightning back at him, except Dooku blocked it as well. So, you can't say that he didn't do anything.

    If we were to believe that the Dark Side is "stronger" (as told by GL in the commentary), then Yoda proves that the Light Side can be, at least, equally powerful.

    As for Yoda using his lightsaber, Dooku said: "It's obvious that this contest cannot be won by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with the lightsaber." So there was no other way for the two to fight except by using their lightsabers.

    During the Obi-Wan vs. Dooku duel, when their sabers were locked, Dooku was able to move his saber to overpower Obi-Wan and injure him. When it came to Yoda, when they locked sabers (I think this is the part when Yoda says, "Powerful you have become. The Dark Side I sense in you."), Yoda is the one that was able to move his saber to overpower Dooku. I don't know how much strength you would need to do this saber maneuver, but it seemed like a great effort for Obi-Wan, while it seemed like nothing for Yoda.

    I think the fact that Dooku had to distract Yoda by letting the pillar fall on Obi-Wan and Anakin meant the Dooku didn't think he could win the duel. That's how I see it.

    Bottom line: For me, it does not diminish his credibility.
  10. DARTH_ABBADON Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2002
    star 4
    Why would Yoda want to kill Dooku? He needed Dooku to find out more about A)the sith B)the sepratist movement. If Yoda just stood still and let Dooku come at him, sure Yoda might be able to use the Force and creat a force field around himself, or force push him away, etc. But Dooku's not an idiot either. Once Dooku figured out he was getting no where he would just get in his ship and leave. Yoda was stalling. He knew the only way Dooku would come with him was if he could stall enough in time for the troops to get there. If Yoda's credit is diminshed for any reason, it's mearly because he didn't account for Anakin and obi-Wan being in danger during their battle.
  11. ksid Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2002
    star 4
    Exactly the point of the scene isn't to kill Douku.

    It's just to show off Yoda with a Lightsaber.

    GL only wanted to please the fans and the fanboys.


  12. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    <<GL only wanted to please the fans and the fanboys.>>

    And perhaps he wanted to please himself, as well.

    BTW . . what's the difference between a fan and a fanboy?

    -Otis
  13. ksid Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2002
    star 4
    Personally I don't know, I learnt the term fanboy after I came to these boards.
  14. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
    I feel the use of the word fanboy hurts your IQ.
  15. ksid Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2002
    star 4
    True, I agree with you.

    Fanboy - the boys who are fans?


  16. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    Fans are those who wait in lines for SW tickets.

    FanBOYS are those who wait in lines for the newest SW action figures at Toys R US.

    :D

    Ciou-See the Sig
  17. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "Whereas, just seeing that Sidy even CARRIES a lightsaber WOULD diminish HIS credibility."

    But I think a few years ago people would've said the same thing about yoda fighting. Why would it damage palpy's image and not yodas?


    And I still don't believe that all jedi would have to learn saber techniques.

    What about an alien jedi with no arms? Surely there must be a blob jedi somewhere. why can't it just eb there are some jedi whose physical attributes don't lend themselves to saber combat and are jedi academics and mystics, and healers etc, and other jedi are jedi knights.
  18. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "Well maybe he's not so wise in the PT."

    So yoda the idiot trained jedi for 800 years, then in his last 20 learned a world of wisdom, then died.

    Thats pretty weak.

    There need to be some constants in the GFFA. The droids need to bicker, palpatine must be pure evil, and yoda should be the wise sage.
  19. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    Surely there must be a blob jedi somewhere

    [face_laugh], come on! Now you're just getting carried away! ;)
  20. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "So you don't think Obi sensed that she was on the DS?Well if he didn't, then that certainly diminishes his credibility."

    why? he's not god. Obi-wan knew it was a one way trip. "he's not dead" looks to the stars "not yet anyway" he knew when he left Luke that was it for him, if vader could sense him he had to lead him away from luke and the others and get the tractor beam knocke dout while he had a chance.

    "Why didn't Luke have Han come with him to fight Vader at Endor. Or Leia, for that matter. What about Chewie? Just because it was personal my butt. What a moron. Why didn't Qui-gon let the others help take out Maul? And look what it got Qui-gon, dead as a door nail."

    come on, they had other jobs too do to succeed in the mission, trying to redeem vader isn't anywhere on the rebel agenda, it was a personal quest of lukes. As for qui-gon and maul, same story, the queen had to reach the viceroy which was more important in the greater scheme of the battle.
  21. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "Episodes 1 and 2 are seem to be little more than the ultimate in fanfilms. GL isnt really doing whats right for the story, hes giving the audience what they want."

    agreed 100%, the pT seems like its pandering to the audience.


    "Those 2 duels have alot incommon and thats why I brought them up.Lets compare them shall we.

    Yoda and Vader both sense their former master/padawaans presence."


    Except that the vader/old ben relationship is not only one of the main plots of ANH but the whole saga, where as the yoda/dooku connection was tacked on at the last minute and has no bearing on anything. The vader/ob1 relationship is clearly established early in the movie and the duel is the pay off. Yoda, nor anyone except padme of all people even mentions dooku until they are fighting.

    "They search for their former master/padawaan."

    He went to help Ob1 and anakin. again the dooku/yoda connection was added well into post.


    "They opt to fight them alone even though they have an ample amount of troops at their disposal.They both could destroy the former master/padawaans ship but they choose not to. "

    These situations are so completly different as JenX as aptedly pointed out. It comes down to the fact that ANH has a tight well written script, and AOTC doesn't.

    So is Vaders credibility also diminished?

    No.

    "Show's that the Sith are unconventual in their way of thinking, they don't conform. Dooku wasn't conforming when he designed his saber to have a curved handle and use a style that was no longer in use. Having a double-bladed saber had nothing to do with Maul's creation. Maul was to show us how Sidious gained control of Anakin. Evoultion with the rule of two in place."

    How do u people find such deep meanings in the most trivial things? just admit that they thought a double saber would be cool and ran with it.

    yet you conviently make statements like this:

    "As to Yoda's statement about "not this crude matter", he's refering to muscles. Not using a Lightsaber."

    People get balmed for what they thought the PT was about based on the OT, yet how is thsis any different?

    "Was the point of the duel necessarily to show that "Yoda is the master!"? That's what our good friend Rick McCallum said"

    actually GL has said it on numerous occasions.

    "Or maybe he's telling the story HE wants."

    well then the story has problems.
  22. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
    "So yoda the idiot trained jedi for 800 years, then in his last 20 learned a world of wisdom, then died."

    Who said he was an idiot.I'm just saying hes not as wise as he is in the OT.That doesnt make him an idiot.

    "why? he's not god. Obi-wan knew it was a one way trip. "he's not dead" looks to the stars "not yet anyway" he knew when he left Luke that was it for him, if vader could sense him he had to lead him away from luke and the others and get the tractor beam knocke dout while he had a chance."

    You have a point, but I still think Obi should have gone with them until Vader finally caught up with them.

    BTW, can someone please tell me why vader didn't take a band of ST with him?LenX complains about Yoda facing dooku alone when he had 1000s of troops at his disposal.But why is it ok for vader not to take a squad of troops with him?It would have given him a huge advantage.

  23. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "As for Yoda using his lightsaber, Dooku said: "It's obvious that this contest cannot be won by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with the lightsaber." So there was no other way for the two to fight except by using their lightsabers."

    But if you took away dookus line the fight could of just gone on escalating. Its not like this is a documentary it can be written any number of ways.

    "Yoda was stalling. He knew the only way Dooku would come with him was if he could stall enough in time for the troops to get there."

    But that makes no sense, because Yoda was with the troops and someone had to fly him to the hanger, so why not bring 20 troops with him?


    "You have a point, but I still think Obi should have gone with them until Vader finally caught up with them."

    But they weren't going anywhere, they found out leia was on the deathstar after he left. they were suppose to stay in the control booth and wait, so if benhad stayed there vader would of showed up and killed them and the tractor beam would remain active. They didn't go to the deathstar to rescue leia, it was lukes crazy idea. The main objective was to escape with the plans.

    "BTW, can someone please tell me why vader didn't take a band of ST with him?LenX complains about Yoda facing dooku alone when he had 1000s of troops at his disposal.But why is it ok for vader not to take a squad of troops with him?It would have given him a huge advantage."

    Because he wanted to privately resolve a 30 year grudge. Because there was no chance of kenobi escaping. Because Vader didn't know about luke or han, he thought ben was alone, and strategically for the empire there was no real loss in kenobi escaping, and little chance that he could considering there were ST everywhere. Vader had personal business with Ben. Where as Yoda had professional business with dooku, he needed to stop him from escaping to prevent the war, their old connection is contrived and has no real effect on why yoda had to duel dooku, dooku had to be stopped, end of story.
  24. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
    "These situations are so completly different as JenX as aptedly pointed out. It comes down to the fact that ANH has a tight well written script, and AOTC doesn't."

    No,no difference!Both of the scripts are flawed imo.There was no reason for vader to face obi alone.Unless you subscribe to my theory, which is the duel was personal and he didn't want any interference from STs.Same theory applies to the yoda/dooku duel.
  25. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
    "Vader had personal business with Ben. Where as Yoda had professional business with dooku, he needed to stop him from escaping to prevent the war, their old connection is contrived and has no real effect on why yoda had to duel dooku, dooku had to be stopped, end of story."

    One could argue that the Yoda/Dooku duel was also personal.Maybe Yoda also needed to settle a gudge.

    Vader had to stop obi because he could create havoc for the empire.So vaders buisness with obi was also profesional.I think it was a bad move on Vaders part, but not a costly one.If I was him,I would have taken a squad with me to insure victory,but I guess Vader isn't as bright as I previously thought he was.
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