Did Yoda's lightsaber battle diminish his credibility?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Anakin_Kenobi, Nov 27, 2002.

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  1. ksid Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2002
    star 4
    Is Form II even canon? as is 3,4,5,6,7 and 8?

    Btw, Ben was already in the belly of the whale, figuratively.

    There was no escaping for him. While Yoda went to catch Douku.


  2. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "There was no reason for vader to face obi alone.Unless you subscribe to my theory, which is the duel was personal and he didn't want any interference from STs.Same theory applies to the yoda/dooku duel."

    Because there was no chance of obi-wan escaping, the ST are with Vader, they are down every corridor, its ST central, han and luke couldn't go anywhere with out seeing them.
  3. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
    "Btw, Ben was already in the belly of the whale, figuratively."

    Well figuratively Han,Leia,luke,chewie,and the droids were to, but they managed to escape.Also obi put him self in that position he could have escaped with the others but he chose to die.

    "There was no escaping for him. While Yoda went to catch Douku"

    No,Yoda went to save ani and obi.Of course one of his objectives was to capture Dooku, but I think he let his feelings get the best of him(saving ani and obi instead of capturing dooku).So do you see that's the leason that he learned.Save your friends, unless by doing so means you put the lives of others at risk.
  4. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "One could argue that the Yoda/Dooku duel was also personal.Maybe Yoda also needed to settle a gudge."

    If thats the case then GL failed, because that certainly doesn't come across.

    "Vader had to stop obi because he could create havoc for the empire.So vaders buisness with obi was also profesional.I think it was a bad move on Vaders part, but not a costly one.If I was him,I would have taken a squad with me to insure victory,but I guess Vader isn't as bright as I previously thought he was."

    Think about what your saying, there is no way that AotC is possibly in the ame league in terms of script as ANH. Not even close, AOtc has one of the most sprawling, gaudy, sloppily put together scripts I've ever seen.
  5. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
    "Think about what your saying, there is no way that AotC is possibly in the ame league in terms of script as ANH. Not even close, AOtc has one of the most sprawling, gaudy, sloppily put together scripts I've ever seen."

    Did I say it was in the same league?Why are you bringing the script up?I disagree with your obviously negative opinion about the script,which is unreasonably harsh.
  6. augusto Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 4
    Please let's not turn this into another tired AOTC is the worst script ever discussion.

    Anyways, this is a post from Lemon which I was not able to answer today;


    I am not saying that if you lay down the lightsaber, you are not going to fight.

    So what was Yoda to do? He fought with moving and deflecting things with the force, then Dooku pulled a lightsaber. You wanted Yoda to just stand there and hurl stuff at Dooku while he advanced with his sabre swining at him? If Yoda did that, he'd be pretty stupid.

    The point is, it was Dooku who chose to fight with a lightsabre. If you want Yoda to "use the force" and fight him in this case, please come up with a plausible (and interesting) scenario.


    My philosophy of the Force comes from Lucas' statements about SW being about not depending on technology, but using your inner strentgh to overcome obstacles. He speakes extensivly about this in the documentary "From SW to Jedi". He specifically uses the trench scene as an example. All I have done is extend that thought onto the lightsaber, which is, in fact, a piece of technology.


    False conclusion. The reliance of technology in the trench, is the targetting system, Luke's use of the force is to let it help him aim. Yet he's using the X-Wing to fly through the trench and firing a laser torpedo into it, so he's using technology. The point here is that the force guided him. That's the most important use of the force.

    When Yoda pulls a lightsaber, he's using the force by letting it guide him to execute all his moves. The lighsaber is just a tool, like Luke's X-Wing and torpedoes where tools.

    I'm sorry, but this point is too imporant to pass up. And the trench example can not be used to say the highest level Jedi should not use lightsabers.

    In a story that is supposed to be about freeing yourself from the bonds of technology,

    I'll repeat it again, the Jedi are not Amish.
  7. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    I think the lightsaber battle increased Yoda's credibility. He was challenged to a duel and he oblidged. So far all Jedi have used sabers. I see no problem with Yoda using a saber. He didn't kill Dooku because we needed to see Dooku with Palpy at the end of the movie. Yoda also had to save Obi-Wan and Anakin from that falling column.
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Loose canon. It was established in the cut scene, which you must decide for yourself, where Obi-wan learns more about him. Jocusta Nu told Obi-wan that he was a great fighter and studied a rare form of combat, if I recall. Point is, Dooku was able to beat two Jedi and match up to his Master.

    So it's a ok for Luke and Vader to have a personal misison, but not ok for Yoda? Riiiiiiight. Each duel was personal in nature. In TPM it was Jedi vs. Sith, natural enemies battling it out for Naboo. In AOTC it was Obi-wan vs. Dooku, the "father/son" plot point from Campbell's work. Dooku was the "father" to Qui-gon, who was the "father" to Obi-wan. Dooku was trying to use the legacy for his "son" to tempt Obi-wan. It didn't work and thus they fought. Anakin, who sees Obi-wan like a "father", rushes to defend his life. This here will set up a duel for them. Yoda was Dooku's "father" and thus the fight between them is personal. Dooku was his Padawan all the way through. His conversion to the Dark Side saddened him and thus it was his responsibility to face him.

    Obi-wan and Anakin fight with the "father/son" thing hanging over them. Obi-wan wanting to turn his "son" back, but Anakin was rebeling against his "father". The Luke/Vader fights were the same way in ESB and ROTJ. Only now, they are related and the fight is just as personal for both. Add in Palpatine who has become "like a father" to Vader and we have a more complex plotline.

    Yoda's fight is hardly a fanboy thing, since he had it in his mind in 78. Way before the public knew there would be another Jedi Master alive.
  9. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    *DEEP BREATH*


    George15

    >>None of which actually answers any of the points I raised about the actual topic, that being Yoda and the Yoda/Dooku duel. I'm sure that you will find the time to answer those points rather then continue to draw this thread onto a debate best held on the Classic Trilogy forum.<<

    Those 2 duels have alot incommon and thats why I brought them up.

    Lets compare them shall we.

    Yoda and Vader both sense their former master/padawaans presence.

    They search for their former master/padawaan.

    They opt to fight them alone even though they have an ample amount of troops at their disposal.


    Before I start, I honestly think that it would be better if we judged Yoda's credibility based on his actions. I don't really believe that talking about the Vader/OB1 duel serves any real purpose. Pointing out that other characters also did stupid things doesn't make Yoda's actions any less stupid. However, I've been asked to comment on it, so I will.

    Right, I actually pointed out the crucial differences in the two duels, but I'll do it again for the sake of clarity. Darth Vader is on a gigantic battle station filled with troops that are on his side. He has troops around him that can step in at any moment if he so wishes. He is a person that has been almost completely consumed by the dark side, by hate, anger and the first for vengeance. These are negative qualities. Yoda, on the other hand, is supposedly an intelligent Jedi master, who uses the light side of the force. Focusing on settling a personal score to the detriment of the greater purpose is damaging to the credibility of someone who is supposed to be a wise Jedi master.


    Contrast it with the duel in ANH. OB1 makes sure he achieves that his immediate goal first (that of shutting down the tractor beam) before he duels Vader. And, once again, note that OB1 uses the duel to distract the troops who were surrounding the Millennium Falcon...he is still trying to achieve his primary goal (getting the Millennium Falcon off the Death Star). OB1 continues to duel to distract the Stormtroopers, but as soon as he sees that it has also distracted Luke, thus hampering the escape of the Millennium Falcon (because Luke might try to aid him) OB1 stops dueling.


    They both could destroy the former master/padawaans ship but they choose not to.

    Wow, so you think that Yoda could have destroyed Dooku's ship (either under his own power or with the help of clones) but chose not to??? And you don't think that damages his credibility? You don't think that was a bit...stupid?

    I mean at least Darth Vader's decision is understandable. The Millennium Falcon is presently housed on a battlestation the size of a small moon, filled with StormTroopers, after being captured by a tractor beam. I'd say he has a lot more reason to believe that the ship is going nowhere then Yoda does.


    So is Vader?s credibility also diminished?He seems like a pretty intelligent guy but not landing a blow on your former master who is 60 something(when he killed him that doesn't count because obi let him do it)is inexcusable.

    A few separate points here. Firstly, old age isn't as great a disadvantage as you seem to suggest. Secondly, whilst I certainly agree that OB1 let Vader kill him, you can't say that "that doesn't count". It ends the duel. Vader takes advantage of a chance to strike OB1 down and does so.

    Please note that it isn't Yoda's failure to land a single blow in itself that's a problem, it's his failure to land a blow when he had the opportunity to that is a problem.

    There seems to be a double standard here.I'm sure JenX, that you'll come with a reason why that isn't so right?

    Well, it isn't a double standard, as I hope you can see. You have to look at the people dueling, the setting of the duels and the objectives of the combatants. If Yoda was a none-to-bright Sith then his actions in the Dooku duel wouldn't diminish his character...but he isn't. He is a wise Jedi master who must stop Dooku escaping.
  10. Lemon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 1999
    star 1
    augusto, glad to hear from you.

    Anyway, what should Yoda have done in the battle besides using his lightsaber? Here is a possiblilty. The Jedi are supposed to use the Force for defense, never for attack. The Sith have the special power of Force lightning, which seems to be a release of their inner Force ability (an ability which does not come from technology). It is very much an attack move. The Jedi are supposed to be defensive warriors and perhaps they have a similar release of the Force.

    Dooku whips out the saber and charges Yoda. Oh my God! What's Yoda doing?! He's just standing there! Dooku swings his saber, but the blade stops short of Yoda's head. It has been blocked by a Force shield surrounding the little guy. Dooku slashes away to no avail. His anger rages. Yoda stands quiet and unmoving inside the shield. Dooku's saber is ripped from his hand and flies across the room. He is lifted from the floor and hangs in mid-air, captured. However, as a last ditch effort, he is able to break Yoda's bonds long enough to bring down the pillar toward Anakin and Obi-Wan. Yoda must release Dooku to save the Jedi and we are back to what we see in the film. As a side note, I think it would have been much more interesting if Yoda clearly had Dooku in a HELPLESS state and he RELEASES him to save the Jedi.

    With this scenario, you have Yoda, the calm, collected warrior and Dooku, the reckless, aggressive warrior. Perfect examples of the two differing philosophies.

    Now, on to the Amish Jedi.

    Luke and Artoo approach Daggobah.

    LUKE: ?I?m not picking up any cities or technology, but there?s some massive life-form readings, though.?

    Now, I assume that Yoda is living on Daggobah because he wanted to avoid detection, so he stayed as far away from civilization as possible. Whatever the reason, this is the STORY explanation for having Daggobah be uncivilized. However, the THEME explanation is that this the pure Jedi training ground for Luke. No technology, just an untouched, natural place.

    The Death Star: the greatest technological achievement in the universe.

    Daggobah: the most uncivilized planet in the galaxy.

    Check out Yoda?s living conditions. Not exactly the height of technology. In essence, he is Amish on Daggobah.

    Finally you are correct, augusto, when you say that Luke had to use is photon torpedoes and X-Wing to destroy the Death Star. He was not ready for more. The most he can do is guide the torpedoes with the Force. His first step on the road to enlightenment is turning off the targeting computer.

    Are you saying that a Jedi who had reached the highest level of Force understanding could have stopped the Death Star using no technology? Yes I am. There is no spoon. There are no limits to the power of the Force.

    Why then didn?t Yoda take out the Death Star? Perhaps Yoda had not reached the highest of the high points yet. Perhaps no one ever has, but it is what the Jedi are striving for. However, I believe that Yoda was by far the most enlightened of the Jedi and should have been past the point of using his lightsaber. This would have just been a physical representation of the fact that Yoda was currently the greatest Jedi. Something to set him apart from the others.

    In AOTC, we are not SHOWN that Yoda is the greatest Jedi. The only amazing thing he does is deflect and catch the Force lightning, but Dooku deflects it also. If Dooku had dived out of the way when the lightning came back at him, that would have made Yoda more impressive. But, it does show that Yoda does have SOME power that Anakin and Obi-Wan don?t have. So that?s why it was such a huge let down for me when he whips out the saber. We have a great build up with a new level of Force strength from Yoda, then he just whips out his lightsaber... like EVERYBODY else. He needs to be separated from the common Jedi.

    All the Jedi treat Yoda with awe and respect, but if we look at the series as a whole, we need to be SHOWN that he is the greatest somewhere. Basic storytelling: show, don
  11. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Please note that it isn't Yoda's failure to land a single blow in itself that's a problem, it's his failure to land a blow when he had the opportunity to that is a problem.

    This point has been refuted several times, yet you keep pressing it like it has some teeth. If you are going to argue that Yoda had obvious opportunities to land a blow on Dooku then please give us a detailed break down of the duel and show us exactly how Yoda could have landed a blow and why Dooku would have been unable to avoid it, parry it, or land a decisive blow of his own in the process.

    Well, I always find that if you are going to reply to someone else?s points, it helps if you actually read what they said. Now, if you can find a post of mine where I said that "Yoda could have just ducked in and capped him in the kneecap" I'd be very grateful, but you won't be able to because I never said that.

    You made up that quote, Durwood, one that could be easily countered, and then tried to pass it off as if I had said it. I'm disappointed, but not totally surprised as you have done it before.


    Oh, give me a break. I was paraphrasing one of your ealier arguments but used some tongue-in-cheek street slang in an attempt to be humoreous. Needless to say, I'm hardly surprised that you take such grave offense at a little good natured ribbing. Lighten up, will ya! Sheesh!

    Is there any reason to believe that the lightning wouldn't have damaged the ship? Has Yoda spent much time testing the effects of Sith lightning on spaceships?

    Since even direct blaster hits aren't always enough to destroy or even disable a ship, I'd say that it's a pretty reasonable conclussion that Sith lightning would have a similiar effect.

    Firstly, lets just assume that Yoda did come in with a troop of clone troopers "armed to the teeth". If Dooku does turn and attempt to "high-tail" it out of there then he'd have to be able to run, enter his ship, fire it up and fly out of there whilst simultaneously protecting himself and his ship from the clones who are shooting AND Yoda.

    When I say "high-tail it out of there" I mean exactly that. As soon as Yoda enters with the clonetroopers, it's not like Dooku is going to just stand there and let them draw a bead on him. And besides, it has been clearly established that even concentrated fire from multiple opponents can be easily deflected by a skilled Jedi. Furthermore, you are now saying that you would have expected Yoda to immediately go on the offensive when the entire debate surrounding the Yoda duel is the fact that he went offensive at all.

    He could have engaged Dooku in a duel and had the clone troopers enter and attack the ship whilst Dooku had his hands full. He could have had a clone ship waiting outside the hanger, blocking off the exit or it could have fired whilst the ship was berthed or after it had started up.

    Well, that's pretty much what he was doing, but the clonetroopers didn't get there in time.

    But now you're walking on thin ice as you're trying to find logical explanations for every single event in the movie. By applying that same kind of scrutiny to the entire saga, you'll find that the original films will similiarly fall apart (for instance, why did the Rebel pilots let their comrades in the trench play sitting ducks for the Imperial fighters when they could have easily come in behind the TIE's to provide defensive cover? More to the point, why was Han Solo the only one clever enough to think to do so? Or why did Luke enter Jabba's palace defenseless? It seemed a terribly risky plan to hope that R2 would be in just the right place at just the right time to yield Luke's weapon. I mean, suppose Jabba had ordered R2 to stay at the palace? Luke would have been S.O.L then!).

    There comes a point in every story when you just have to accept the events as portrayed despite the lack of explanation. Keep pushing and you're only going to break things for yourself, and where's the fun in that?
  12. Mech-E_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 2
    First, there have been some really good posts here. Lamentably, there have been some posts of poor taste, degrading almost to the point of name calling. Let's keep the discussion elevated.

    OK, next, I proffer my interpretation of the primary issue, then I'll record other quotes to support this thinking.

    It seems to me, that there are really two transcending arguments. Either, 1) a true master of the Force, as we are supposed to see in Yoda, relies on nothing but the Force, or 2) we are to interpret the power of the Force as limited.

    1) Those like myself, JenX, Lemon, et al, imagine the Force as having no limits and are thereby disappointed that Yoda keenly demonstrates his limits and thus his credibility is diminished.

    2) Others, interpret his actions as mastery of the Force, dismissing the point that the Force is limited. In other words, if the Force is limited in its power, then Yoda's credibility is established because he uses the Force to the limit.

    So what thinking can we show to support point 1?

    darth-sinister
    As to Yoda's statement about "not this crude matter", he's refering to muscles. Not using a Lightsaber. He told Luke that muscles do not make a Jedi, the Force does. Note that he also had Luke working out his muscles as well, so that there is a contradiction on his part. A Jedi is powerful without a saber, but even more so with one.


    This demonstrates a differing interpretation of the script. When Yoda refers to " . . . this crude matter." I see him pointing to Luke's muscles but hear him refer to all physical matter.

    MJedi
    As for Yoda using his lightsaber, Dooku said: "It's obvious that this contest cannot be won by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with the lightsaber." So there was no other way for the two to fight except by using their lightsabers.


    This is just terrible dialogue. Why are using the Force and using a lightsabre separated? I always thought that you had to use the Force in order to use a lightsabre. Darth Vader never says, in ESB, "Well, Luke, looks like you can keep up with me and my lightsabre - so let's STOP using lightsabres as I use the Force to hurl heavy things at you?" -- hopefully you see my point.

    augusto
    So what was Yoda to do? He fought with moving and deflecting things with the force, then Dooku pulled a lightsaber. You wanted Yoda to just stand there and hurl stuff at Dooku while he advanced with his sabre swining at him? If Yoda did that, he'd be pretty stupid.

    The point is, it was Dooku who chose to fight with a lightsabre. If you want Yoda to "use the force" and fight him in this case, please come up with a plausible (and interesting) scenario.


    Please read all of Lemon's post on page 12 - (to which I very much agree. Well said, Lemon.) And consider this quote:

    Mech-E_Jedi's post at the top of page 11

    Given a little thought, the most powerful Jedi master would have no need for any physical weapons. Yoda alludes to this in ESB (" . . . not this crude matter.") This means that he would be able to fight and subdue someone who is attacking him with a lightsabre, defending himself with whatever is around - a rock, a stick, a box. He would be able to channel the Force into these objects and thereby block a lightsabre, a blaster, Sith lightning.

    If I let my mind wonder - I can imagine someone far more powerful than we've seen - yet I digress and stray from the subject.


    Lastly, I offer this line from ANH, said by Vader himself, "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force." That is a very telling statement in support of this thinking.

    Therefore, because of this thinking, because I imagine the Force as having no limits, when I see Yoda stoop to the level of other Jedi by relying on his Sabre, his credibility is thereby diminished.




    I apologize for the
  13. TheWombat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 2002
    star 4
    A warrior should use the most effective weapon available. For the "enlightened" Jedi the most powerful weapon they have is the Force itself.

    Wait a minute, we've forgotten one of the basics of Jedi 101... A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack. Never for attack. Even before the PT, I've always taken that to mean that using the Force to atack someone, whether it be throwing things, force-choke, sith lightning... that is of the Dark Side. The lightsaber was what a Jedi used when he went on the offensive. (And yes I can see where you could say that the Force guides the saber and that's using the Force to attack... it's a grey area, but to me there's a difference). So how would Yoda win a fight without using a lightsaber? In my interpretation of that Jedi code, there is no way.

    JenX - you keep bringing up this thing about why didn't Yoda try to destroy Dooku's ship? Did you read what I wrote about how Yoda had no idea if anyone was on the ship? What if Yoda destroyed the ship, and took out 6 hostages at the same time? Not very wise if you ask me. And it also falls into the attacking with the Force category from above.

    As far as GL failing to show that the Yoda/Dooku duel was personal? It seemed very personal to me, from the moment they greeted each other.

    "Master Yoda"
    "Dooku"

    Man, I felt all kinds of bad mojo going on there. The way Yoda says Dooku's name.. it was like "I taught you right, how dare you turn to the Darkside. I brought you into the Order, now I'm about to take you out, period."
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The Jedi have no equal to Sith Lightning, as it's summoned by the dark emotions.

    Dooku's line about settling this contest, was in reference to his being smug that he was superior to him. Dooku had since the beginning of the final fight, made reference to his being stronger than the Jedi now. Yoda proved that he could match him toe for toe, with Force powers alone. Not with sabers. When he said that it can only be settled with Lightsabers, it's the only way for him to beat Yoda. Since he is the master of an anicent for of combat and feels he can beat anyone. Including his former Master. Yoda was more than happy to oblige him and gave him a run for his money. Yoda is also wise in the ways of combat and knows it's better to ware down your opponet, instead of being reckless.

    You automatically assume that Yoda had Clonetroopers with him. But we did see the Clonetroopers with Anakin and Obi-wan were destroyed when they arrived at the hangar. Not to mention that there were Battle Droids in the hangar when Dooku first arrived. It's logical to assume that when Yoda arrived, they ran into resistance and Yoda entered, without being stopped. And who is to say that Yoda needed the clones to pilot the gunship? He could've chosen to go on his own, without using the Clones.

    One more thing, something that Lucas has said about the episode which can extend to AOTC. He said that we're going to see everyone in a different light, going into the OT.
  15. Lemon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 1999
    star 1
    How about this...

    There are three lightsaber battles in the OT. The good guys win all three fights. However, they don?t win by being great swordsman, they win because they DON?T use their sabers.

    Obi-Wan is taken down by Vader in ANH, but I think we can all agree that he wins the fight. He DOES accomplish part of his mission with his lightsaber. He distracts Vader long enough for Luke and the DS plans to escape. But the real victory comes when he raises his saber and allows Vader to strike him down. He knew he could not be any further use to Luke in his physical form, so ceases fighting with his saber and bye-bye Obi-Wan.

    Luke loses his saber (and his hand) in ESB, but he still wins the fight. Vader?s goal in the battle is to either turn Luke to the Dark Side or kill him. If Luke had continued fighting, Vader surely would have destroyed him. However, Luke was also able to avoid being turned. Therefore, Vader does not accomplish his mission and Luke wins.

    Finally in ROTJ, Luke?s victory comes when he lays down his saber and doesn?t kill Vader.

    We can see that true victory came in the OT fights from laying down the saber.

    But now look at the PT...

    In TPM, the Jedi lose the fight. Sure, Obi-Wan whacks Maul in half, but the fight is really over when Qui-Gon is taken out. Anakin has lost his master and now must be trained by Obi-Wan and we all know how that turns out. Perhaps if Qui-Gon had lived... who knows? The point is that this is the first time we have seen a saber battle resolved solely with a saber.

    In AOTC, once again the Jedi lose. Dooku escapes. Yoda resorts to the saber and attempts to resolve the conflict through force. Dooku gets away and the Clone War begins, which we know doesn?t turn out good for the Jedi.

    Everything will come full circle in EP 3 with Anakin. IF he kills Dooku and takes his place at Palpy?s side, he will most likely do it with a lightsaber. Then there is the battle with Obi-Wan. Anakin will be the fallen hero in this scene, but still our HERO. We still believe there is a chance Obi-Wan can bring him back, but it won?t be the case. Anakin will be so furious with Obi-Wan he will attack, attack, attack. The way of the Dark Side. Anakin loses.

    Yes, I believe that Yoda using a lightsaber does diminish his credibility. But perhaps that is what is supposed to do. Perhaps that is Lucas? plan.
  16. DarthWeenie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2002
    star 4
    "A fan idea is Boba Fett leading the Mandalorians in an attack on the Jedi. Not going to happen."

    I think it will.

    "Lucas said that he is surprised by the popularity of Boba Fett from the OT's eu. His story was already in his mind since ESB, just needed to connect the dots."



    He introduced Boba and Jango to give fanboys a little Fett action they had always been dreaming about all the time. He didnt fit in with the story. He was MADE to fit in.

    You really think GL planned to have Vader also be the father of C3p0? Please.

    GL is a genius. But dont elevate him to Sidious' level of genius, by saying that he planned it all from the beginning. All he had from the beginning was episode 3.

    Sorry, I just had to vent. I hate when people do that to GL.
  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Boba Fett was created during the script writing of ESB. Early on, Lando was a clone left over from the Clone Wars. Then it was switched to Boba Fett, when he was initially created. That he was part of the Shock Troopers that fought in the Clone Wars and now a bounty hunter for hire. His armor was originally white, like the Clone/Stormtrooper armor. Then it was colored up and his popularity took off from the expanded universe and action figure's early release.

    Lucas has said that he has always saw Boba Fett being connected to the Stormtroopers, but didn't know how until he began working on AOTC.
  18. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    you keep bringing up this thing about why didn't Yoda try to destroy Dooku's ship? Did you read what I wrote about how Yoda had no idea if anyone was on the ship? What if Yoda destroyed the ship, and took out 6 hostages at the same time? Not very wise if you ask me.

    There's also the fact that exploding ships are generally pretty spectacular affairs in the Star Wars universe. Let's say Yoda did redirect the Sith lightning at the ship and blew the thing to hell. In all probability, it would have killed everybody in the hanger.
  19. Hector Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2001
    star 3
    "Did Yoda's lightsaber battle diminish his credibility?"

    Absolutely. Yoda was incredible.

  20. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    So why didn't yoda stand on the ramp of the ship and block dooku from entering?
  21. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    So why didn't yoda stand on the ramp of the ship and block dooku from entering?

    Because Yoda had to go through Dooku to get to the ship.
  22. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
    "Darth Vader is on a gigantic battle station filled with troops that are on his side. He has troops around him that can step in at any moment if he so wishes. He is a person that has been almost completely consumed by the dark side, by hate, anger and the first for vengeance. These are negative qualities. Yoda, on the other hand, is supposedly an intelligent Jedi master, who uses the light side of the force. Focusing on settling a personal score to the detriment of the greater purpose is damaging to the credibility of someone who is supposed to be a wise Jedi master."

    Well,Vader is supposedly an intelligent sithlord,but Vaders decision to fight Obi alone cost the empire not only the DS but also the civil war.It also shows that Vader isn't as intelligent as we once thought.If Vader would have ordered a squad of troopers to kill Obi,instead of settling a score with Obi they would have won the war.Vader was fully aware of the others on board and he must have known that his duel with OBi would serve as a distraction and alow the others to escape.

    "Contrast it with the duel in ANH. OB1 makes sure he achieves that his immediate goal first (that of shutting down the tractor beam) before he duels Vader. And, once again, note that OB1 uses the duel to distract the troops who were surrounding the Millennium Falcon...he is still trying to achieve his primary goal (getting the Millennium Falcon off the Death Star). OB1 continues to duel to distract the Stormtroopers, but as soon as he sees that it has also distracted Luke, thus hampering the escape of the Millennium Falcon (because Luke might try to aid him) OB1 stops dueling."

    Obiwans duel with Vader was unnecessary imo_Obi could have gone with Luke instead of resolving his issues with vader.A jedi master could have easily slayed the inaccurate ST.Obi could have used a mind trick on the ST and achieved the same goal with out sacrificing himself.

    "Wow, so you think that Yoda could have destroyed Dooku's ship (either under his own power or with the help of clones) but chose not to??? And you don't think that damages his credibility? You don't think that was a bit...stupid?"

    Not anymore stupid than Vaders decision on the DS.

    "I mean at least Darth Vader's decision is understandable. The Millennium Falcon is presently housed on a battlestation the size of a small moon, filled with StormTroopers, after being captured by a tractor beam. I'd say he has a lot more reason to believe that the ship is going nowhere then Yoda does."

    Vader should have known that the tractor beam would be shutdown.They believe Obis there to save the princess, so how is he going to rescue the princess if the tractor beam is operational.

    "Well, it isn't a double standard, as I hope you can see. You have to look at the people dueling, the setting of the duels and the objectives of the combatants. If Yoda was a none-to-bright Sith then his actions in the Dooku duel wouldn't diminish his character...but he isn't. He is a wise Jedi master who must stop Dooku escaping."

    So if yoda was a "none-to-bright sith"(like vader)his actions would have been excusable, and his character wouldn't be diminished?






  23. augusto Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 4
    Lemon;


    Yoda stands quiet and unmoving inside the shield. Dooku's saber is ripped from his hand and flies across the room. He is lifted from the floor and hangs in mid-air, captured.

    I'm sorry, that might be a good battle for Magneto or Jean Gray. The force battle is already played out, it would seem to me that if you turn to the Dark side as an experienced Jedi, nobody is going to immobilize you with the force. If not, there is no point turning to the dark side.

    As a side note, I think it would have been much more interesting if Yoda clearly had Dooku in a HELPLESS state and he RELEASES him to save the Jedi.


    Well Yoda was too much for Dooku, so he had to "cheat". I like the way it ended up being.


    With this scenario, you have Yoda, the calm, collected warrior and Dooku, the reckless, aggressive warrior. Perfect examples of the two differing philosophies.


    Actually, you're scenario while less entertaining, would make Yoda seem dishonorable. It seems to me that if somebody challenges you to a lightsaber fight (as Dooku does), you fight him with a ligthsaber, not pull out a bazooka.

    The shield stuff is cheap. You also said a of the highest level, could destroy the Death Star by only using the Force.

    No thanks.

    This is the type of thinking that makes the old Superman in the old JLA cartoon, come up with a new power all the time. It's too cheap of a way to solve things, boring, and too absurd.

    If Yoda had to destroy the death star, we would have trusted his feeling and shot the thing were he was supposed to, not crushed it by the use of the force. If that were so, Palpatine would be able to do it, and hence no Death Star. Hence boring movie.


    Now, I assume that Yoda is living on Daggobah because he wanted to avoid detection, so he stayed as far away from civilization as possible.


    You assume too much. :)
    I'll wait for Episode III to explain that one.

    However, the THEME explanation is that this the pure Jedi training ground for Luke. No technology, just an untouched, natural place.

    I don't think that's what the story says about Dagobah at all. You're pretty much "inserting" that. To me, from the movie, there's not much meaning to Dagobah, except that it's a weird place to find a Jedi Master. I think that's about it for the meaning of Dagobah in ESB.
    His first step on the road to enlightenment is turning off the targeting computer.


    In your movie, Jedi would just float around naked through the universe wishing things away. C'mon, is that fun? Of the highest level Jedis are just basically God. Not fun.


    Are you saying that a Jedi who had reached the highest level of Force understanding could have stopped the Death Star using no technology? Yes I am. There is no spoon. There are no limits to the power of the Force.


    Sorry, wrong movie. This is not a computer simulation, it's a galaxy far away.
  24. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "but Vaders decision to fight Obi alone cost the empire not only the DS but also the civil war."

    How do you figure? Tarkin let Han, Luke and leia escape to track them to yavin, the duel didn't even figure into it, if vader had tried to catch them he could of, they only sent 4 fighters after them so they could get away.

    "If Vader would have ordered a squad of troopers to kill Obi,instead of settling a score with Obi they would have won the war."

    But the troopers were everywhere, if Vader got into trouble they would've jumped in. And Vader had no idea the whol war was at stake, he didn't know about Luke or a million other variables that would come into play. The empire at the time seemed invincible.

    "Vader was fully aware of the others on board"

    How do you figure that? And don't say he sensed them with the force, thats become quite the over used copout.

    "and he must have known that his duel with OBi would serve as a distraction and alow the others to escape."

    Again how do u derive that, not to mention he wanted the others to escape.


    "Obiwans duel with Vader was unnecessary imo."

    Strategically yes. Dramatically no. Where as in the yoda battle makes sense strategically not dramatically.

    "You assume too much.
    I'll wait for Episode III to explain that one."


    I'd say you'll be dissappointed if I thought that was possible ;)
  25. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
    "How do you figure? Tarkin let Han, Luke and leia escape to track them to yavin, the duel didn't even figure into it, if vader had tried to catch them he could of, they only sent 4 fighters after them so they could get away."

    Ok I admit it was Tarkins fault.But Vader still should have ordered the ST to kill Obi.

    "But the troopers were everywhere, if Vader got into trouble they would've jumped in. And Vader had no idea the whol war was at stake, he didn't know about Luke or a million other variables that would come into play. The empire at the time seemed invincible."

    There were 5 STs in the hangar when they dueled.That isn't nearly enough to kill a JM.They were assigned to guard the ship, so they really weren't baking up vader.


    "How do you figure that? And don't say he sensed them with the force, thats become quite the over used copout."

    "THEY must be here to save the princess"Unless they is singular I believe I'm right.

    "Again how do u derive that, not to mention he wanted the others to escape."

    In the end that was a bad decision to let them escape, because it cost them the DS and the war.

    Off the topic

    BTW, Leia suspected that they were being tract so why didn't they try to locate the tracking device and destroy it?



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