Did Yoda's lightsaber battle diminish his credibility?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Anakin_Kenobi, Nov 27, 2002.

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  1. RassyDreas Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2002
    star 1
    No. I believe that he was like the old, venerable kung fu masters who instruct the pupils and yet can kick some serious butt! Just look at him move; he has the grace and style that only comes from experience. And on top odf that, I'll never laugh at Yoda ever again.
  2. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    ".But Vader still should have ordered the ST to kill Obi."

    Why? "Escape is not his plan, I must face him alone" Vader wanted to finish what he started.

    "There were 5 STs in the hangar when they dueled.That isn't nearly enough to kill a JM."

    How do we know? If two droid dekas can neutralize qui-gon and obi-wan, and battledroids can wipe the floor with the 30 jedi in the arena, why not? The troopers are supposedly supperior, and Kenobi was old and weak.


    ""THEY must be here to save the princess"Unless they is singular I believe I'm right."

    True, but at that point the villans were ahead of the heros, they didn't even know leia was there, rescuing her wasn't on the agenda until after Kenobi left.


    "In the end that was a bad decision to let them escape, because it cost them the DS and the war."

    Yes, imperial arrogance was at fault. But with Yoda it was different, he knew dooku could not be allowed to escape, its not like he let him go so they could track him.

    "BTW, Leia suspected that they were being tract so why didn't they try to locate the tracking device and destroy it?"

    Good point. Probably because it was on the outside of the ships hull and they'd have no way to remove it without landing, at which point the empire would jsut catch them again.

    Another thing occured to me today, why did dooku even have to go to the hanger? Why not keep his solar sailor with the viceroys ship, I figured he wanted to lure Anakin or Obi-wan to that other location so he could catch Anakin and take him to Palpatine (which was what I thought the ending would be) but since his plan was just escape, why not keep his ship close by? He was after all anticipating the clone attack, since that was his and Sidious' plan, you can even see the look on his face when the gunships leave the arena, a look of satisfaction. SO why did dooku go to the hanger at all?
  3. augusto Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 4
    SO why did dooku go to the hanger at all?

    They ran out of parking space, he got there late to the party.
  4. DARTH_ABBADON Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2002
    star 4
    ^^ I hate it when that happens.
  5. JediMasterGantoris Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    answer this: if the yoda fight was not important to the story, or should have been cut out, how would anakin and obi wan survive, because if they died, there would not be so much to the story of the next movies, would it?
  6. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    Yoda walks in with Padme and the troopers, dooku quickly uses the force to knock over the pillar and while Yoda is catching it Dooku gets int he ship and flies off.

    Or dooku takes off anakins arm, gives his fallen opponents a little 'better luck next time' nod and exits. Since we don't for sure that dooku is truly evil, he did look regretful after 'disarming' anakin.
  7. augusto Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 4
    Yawn.

    We have a lot of aspiring plotters/writers here. I wish they would all get together and write the ultimate AOTC, I'd put money that it would just suck.

    Anyways, that version of the story is extremely boring, no thanks. Judging by the reaction of the audience at all viewings I got, they loved seeing this scene. Glad the movie is about pleasing the general audience while advancing the story, and not catering to disgruntled fans. :)
  8. JediMaster41589 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2002
    star 3
    No. it showed me that he is more than a gimpy old elf that talks strange.
    all i can say is-YODA ROCKS!
  9. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Vader: "I must face him alone."

    Gee, you said it yourself. He had unfinished business. So did Yoda with Dooku. It was important to him to face Dooku alone. Yoda was arrogant in thinking that he could stop Dooku on his own. This works well, as Yoda realizes that he cannot defeat Sidious. That if he tried to face Sidious and Vader, he'd lose. Thus he must rely on Luke to get the job done.
  10. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    I trust there's no Episode III spoilers here. Right?
  11. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "We have a lot of aspiring plotters/writers here."

    Well someone asked how ob1 and ani would live without yoda fighting I was just providing an option.


    As for Yoda and dooku having unfinished business, what was it? Since them having any connection with each other wasn't even mentioned until that scene, he was Yoda's padawan, so what. We see at the beginning of the movie that yoda teaches every jedi at one stage or another, its no big deal. ANd if the fight was going to be personal why not set it up earlier in the film? Why not have Yoda make mention of dooku in other scenes?
  12. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    If the duel was about Yoda settling an old score with Dooku then I agree that it wasn't terribly well set up. But I think there's a bigger picture to that final duel.

    I believe the theme of Attack Of The Clones is failure. All throughout the movie the protagonists are set back by failure after failure: Anakin fails to impress the woman of his dreams, Obi-Wan and Anakin fail to get information from Zam, Obi-Wan fails to capture Jango, the Jedi fail to forsee the creation of the clone army, Anakin fails to save his mother, Anakin and Padme fail to rescue Obi-Wan, Padme fails to keep her resolve to not fall in love with Anakin, and finally, Obi-Wan and Anakin fail to stop Dooku. Enter Yoda, the cream of the Jedi crop, a master swordsman, a wise sage, a formidable warrior: he is the best the Jedi have to offer, and when he first enters the scene, there is a moment of exhiliration. "Now Dooku's going to get what's coming to him. Yoda's going to show him who's boss!" But when the scene ends, we see that even Yoda has failed, the symbolic "last hope" for the Jedi. In the final scene, he's not hopeful or confident but regretful and full of doubt.

    So in the end, Yoda's scene makes perfect sense and fits in with overall theme of Clones.
  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    No, no spoilers here. What I was refering to was that Yoda didn't go after the Sith, following the Purge. Why he didn't challenge their rule during the 20 year interm and waited for Luke and to a lesser degree, Leia.

    As to the issue of failure that Durwood was talking about, he's on to something. But it's not just AOTC that has failure as a repeated theme, but the saga itself. Think about it. Obi-wan made light of his failure with Anakin in all three OT episodes. That his student, someone he promised to Qui-gon that he'd train to fulfill his destiny, had become "an agent of evil". This also translate to Yoda as well. He had trained Dooku, not just the early years but all the way to Knighthood. And in the backstory, Dooku had too much of a curiousity for knowledge of the forbidden arts. He had tried to keep Dooku from following the dark path and in the end, he still did. That's tantamount to seeing your child abused drugs and alcohol, even though you've done everything in your power to prevent it, it still wasn't enough to stop that from happening. This is the issue that drives their duel, even though it's not expressed as such. Yoda failed to keep his greatest student from becoming "an agent of evil".

    And there's also a strong possibility that they had strong words, when Dooku turned his back on the Jedi ten years earlier. This was his responsibility and he had to take care of it.
  14. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "I believe the theme of Attack Of The Clones is failure."

    An interesting thought which I won't refute.

    Whether it this works on a creative level is debateable but yes I agree with durwoods point. Basically the jedi masters have to come in and clean up the mess that the ani and obi made.
  15. Jedi_Waster Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2002
    star 2
    Too..much..irony..must..stop..reading..
  16. Loyal-Guard Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2002
    star 1
    I agree with Durwood's point completly! One of the reasons that the fact that Yoda's fight with Dooku dosn't really go anywhere didn't bother me was that I saw it as just another failure of sorts for the good guys.

    Yoda, for all his immense power and speed, could only duel a former older jedi master, one who might be a bit weakened from having just fought with two other jedi seconds before and using the whole lightening thing, to a draw.

    Granted, Dooku is the one who broke off the fight, but I see that as his tapping out, realizing that he isin't going to get anywhere in the duel either for the same reasons i mentioned before.

    Yes, i understand how one could see this scene as just another special effect scene thrown in only for effect. But the deeper issues are there if you only look for them.
  17. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    I don't doubt it, to hear Gld escribe it on the commentary I know the films not devoid of meaning and symbols, but I still find the writing/plotting to be questionable.

    Yoda is going to fight. Fine. Yoda is going to fight with a saber. Not what I would've done, but ILM made it look good so no complaints I guess. But have Yoda square off at a time in the PT when its dramatically going to have the most punch, don't just play it for cheap laughs. I'm assuming somewhere in ep3 mace and yoda get their act together and figure out that palpatine is the guy they are after, have Yoda hobble into palpy's office to ask him up front and then the sith hits the fan.
  18. augusto Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 4
    Yoda vs Sidious fight might happen, I think we can be sure they'll have some encounter.

    However, that might be a Force only fight, or, one that Yoda is going to lose very badly. Which would make more sense to have him tie or win now, because bad things are ahead of him.
  19. Jedi_Waster Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2002
    star 2
    This is a Star Wars forum right?

    Why are we talking about Celebrity Deathmatch?
  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    How was it played for laughs? ?[face_plain]
  21. Lemon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 1999
    star 1
    "We have a lot of aspiring plotters/writers here. I wish they would all get together and write the ultimate AOTC, I'd put money that it would just suck."

    augusto, you ASKED me to give you a scenario. That's the ONLY reason I did. I WAS enjoying the debate, but now I realize that it is fruitless.

    BTW, you have consistently misinterpreted every post. You read, but you do not understand. Maybe that's why if something is not specifically stated in the dialogue in a film, the point is lost on you.

    I was prepared to address every point in your last response, but why even bother?
  22. augusto Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 4
    Sorry for being to harsh on your version, I'm a bit grumpy, examn in 30 minutes and haven't slept since yesterday morning.
  23. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    How was it played for laughs?

    Good question. I'm interested in the response.
  24. TheWombat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 2002
    star 4
    Yoda, for all his immense power and speed, could only duel a former older jedi master, one who might be a bit weakened from having just fought with two other jedi seconds before and using the whole lightening thing, to a draw

    I just cant stress enough that just because no one scored a hit, that doesn't mean that it was a draw or that no one was "winning". When two skilled swordsmen go at it, the person who will lose usually knows it very early, though he might be holding his own for the moment. It's not a video game, its more like a chess match. You may be holding your ground at first, but you can tell when your opponent is more skilled and eventually will beat you.
  25. Loyal-Guard Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2002
    star 1
    TheWombat makes a good point. It's kind of like what was said in the TPM DVD special features about a swordfight being a series of intricate movements where every strike is a check.

    My point stays the same as before except, taking Wombat's comment into consideration, both Yoda and Dooku would have known within two or three moves that neither of them were going to get anywhere.

    I too am anxious to hear descriptions how the scene was played for laughs. Although I don't think any of it was played that way on purpose, I have a feeling that it may have something to do with the Yoda's grunty battle cry, or the speed at which he fights.

    Perhaps the scene may have played better to some if Yoda had dueled at a normal speed.
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