Did Yoda's lightsaber battle diminish his credibility?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Anakin_Kenobi, Nov 27, 2002.

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  1. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    I think the scene is played for laughs because Yoda acts like a kung fu movie ham, his whole stance, the silly 70s kung fu music, the silly way he says 'count dooku' in so many ways it just seems like, 'here we go, you've been waiting for it, here it is' .

    Didn't the audience errupt into laughter when you saw it?

    I think thats what GL was going for, and no slam agaisnt him if he was, its just not my taste.
  2. Loyal-Guard Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2002
    star 1
    This makes sense. I liked the Yoda fight, but when I saw it in the theater I couldn't help but think that if someone was watching this and not fully locked into the concept, it was going to be pretty objectionable.

    When he makes that little gunfighter move just before the duel, I remember laughing. But you know, it wasn't because I found the scene unintentionally funny (believe me, after years of watching bad horror and B-films, I know how that goes), it was a genuine sort of giddy rush of excitement.

    I can certinly understand how a lot of people felt more of a sense of dread or apprehension about the Yoda duel, so no laughter in those cases. But I guess im trying to say that just because someone laughed and/or chuckled at that scene, it dosen't mean they are doing so out of ridicule (although Im sure this certinly happened in this case), it could mean that the scene (such at Yoda's gunfighter schitck) is genuinely funny.

    Now if one want to go the route that Yoda is such a sacred cow that one shouldn't have such a cheap laugh in one of his scenes, I can understand this, although for one, I didn't mind so much having a chuckle, nor did I think it ruined the character or what he stood for.
  3. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    <<it was a genuine sort of giddy rush of excitement.>>

    Exactly.

    I feel the same way whenever I watch that scene. It's gives me visceral thrill.

    I would think that most people in the audience were feeling the same thing, and reacted accordingly. Everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) I've talked to about the film at my office says that the Yoda duel was the highlight of the film, the word "awesome" often escaping their lips. Even those who didn't care for the film as a whole agreed that this scene was worth the price of admission.

    Argue all you want about whether it "diminishes his credibility" (it doesn't), but this scene was NOT played for laughs.

    -Otis
  4. ShortOrderSith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2002
    star 1
    I thought that his fighting style was unnecessarily kinetic and in contrast to his maturity and experience. He was showing off and not getting the job done. I mean Dooku was breathing heavy before Yoda even showed up. The 'master' could have made a better effort.
  5. bjbrickm Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2002
    star 3
    I know I let out some kind of sound, not sure what it was, but it was something. Seeing Yoda fight that first time.

    But when Yoda said "around the survivors a perimeter create" I couldn't help it, I started laughing hard. I can imagine some guy commenting on his viewing of the audience, err... AOTC, on a message board later that day. "Yeah and when Yoda said 'around the survivors a permiter create' this guy in front of me laughed for almost ten seconds. GL is a hack. Yoda's dialogue is laughable."

    And nothing could be further from the truth. He had no idea WHY I was laughing. He would be assuming it's because I thought it was ridiculous. When in fact, I liked it. I liked it so much, I laughed. I missed those following ten seconds of action because I was laughing so hard. It's Yoda's best backwards line yet.
  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I never laughed nor found it funny. I enjoyed it immensely. I saw AOTC in June, but no one laughed then. And there was a pretty good sized crowd then. There was laughing, but it wasn't for Yoda's fight scene. Like was said, it was something that was exciting and new to the Saga. And Yoda instantly became a fan favorite in ESB, after Boba Fett. Why hasn't anyone complained about Jango twirling his blaster after shooting Coleman Trebor? That looked like something out of a western and not your typical Star Wars thing.

    The only laughing I read about was Anakin's nightmere and the conclusions that some got from looking at it. Those who hadn't read spoilers and didn't know that was coming and snickered at their dirty thoughts.
  7. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Didn't the audience errupt into laughter when you saw it?

    No, at least not in my theater. And those who did laugh were laughing more out of excitement and astonishment than anything else. Heck, I was laughing, too, but it was the "giddy excitement" that was mentioned earlier. In fact, not surprisingly, the "Good job!" line drew far more laughter than the Yoda fight scene.

    The Yoda fight was a fun scene, but it wasn't played for laughs.
  8. TheWombat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 2002
    star 4
    The reaction in my theater was more like "Hell yeah! Now you're in trouble, Dooku!"
  9. Loyal-Guard Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2002
    star 1
    ShortOrderSith brings up an intresting point of debate: Would the speed of Yoda's attacks being slowed down have affected any percieved damage to his credibility?

    During the "Puppets to Pixels" doc on the DVD, we see an early version of Yoda fighting and brandishing his sabre at normal speed. Not to mention that, but his froggie feet were rooted to the ground. It's then that GL recomends that the motions be sped up, and the springing should come into play.

    So, if the hopping and screaming were taken out, and Yoda dueled in a more traditional way, perhaps mirroring some the fights from the OT, would that have helped?

    Or is it the fact that Yoda fought at all, or if you like, fought in a duel that, as some have said, really had no point other than as a special effect sequence the problem?

    I dont feel that way for the record, I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

    As to ShortOrderSith's other point as to how Yoda wasn't getting the job done, I belive (reffering to another post I made a few days ago) that this percieved failure was one of the more obscure points in the scene; None of the Jedi were really winning much of anything in the film. Mace already stated that their ability to use the force was diminishing, and both Obi-Wan and Anakin got blanked by Dooku with little work. No matter how good Yoda is, the best he could do in this situation was save his comrades.
  10. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    Would the speed affect it? Not for me. Personally I don'thave a problem with how it looked, I jsut find it dramatically incorrect to end the movie this way, personally I'd perfer Yoda didn't weild a saber, but I knew he did going into the movie and I was in full gush mode at the time, I was open to the idea that if ILM made it look right then I would like it, and in that sense I was pleased. Its the posturing before hand I don't like, and the fact that the final duel of the movie is not fought by the main heros.

    "it could mean that the scene (such at Yoda's gunfighter schitck) is genuinely funny."

    Agreed. Thats what I mean by played for laughs.
  11. Loyal-Guard Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2002
    star 1
    Thanks for the clairification Rebel-Scumb. I think im starting to understand where you are coming from on this topic.

    I think where I feel difrently than you on this would be that the whole gunfighter stuff being funny (let's just say for the sake of saving time that this is meant to be funny and is not so in an unintentional sense) didn't bother me since it was a flash of honest humor in the middle of what was turning out to be kind of a glum film.

    Humor has always been prevalent in the SW films, and it has certinly evolved from year to year; From sarcasm (Han Solo) to gentle witty banter (the droids), to the more slapsticky Jar Jar stuff.

    So the way I saw it, a chuckle before Yoda begins swinging didn't feel like such a tradeoff between audience desires and where the story should go, although I think that if GL had gone maybe a step beyond what he did here, I would probably feel the same way you do.

    And hey, Yoda didn't step in some poop before he fought, so it isin't all bad.
  12. Lemon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 1999
    star 1
    I?m sorry, augutso. I too am suffering from lack of sleep. My son decided it was time to play at 2:00 this morning.

    Back to the topic...

    ?...it would seem to me that if you turn to the Dark side as an experienced Jedi, nobody is going to immobilize you with the force. If not, there is no point turning to the dark side.?

    Dooku had believed that joining the Dark Side had made him more powerful than Yoda, but obviously he was wrong. His assumptions about the power he would gain and the power Yoda possessed were incorrect.

    ?Well Yoda was too much for Dooku, so he had to "cheat". I like the way it ended up being.?

    True, Dooku did cheat. But to me, it felt more like Dooku was breaking a stalemate rather than escaping obvious defeat. Yoda may have seemed more powerful if Dooku had been clearly beaten before he brought down the pillar.

    ?Actually, you're scenario while less entertaining, would make Yoda seem dishonorable. It seems to me that if somebody challenges you to a lightsaber fight (as Dooku does), you fight him with a ligthsaber, not pull out a bazooka.?

    Honor? Defending your honor means you are defending your reputation, your pride. The ways of the Dark Side. Lining up on a battlefield, marching toward another army and trading shots, ala Revolutionary War, was once an ?honorable? way to fight a war. Now we just send a guided missile down the chimney. Is this considered a less honorable way to fight war? Who cares? It?s the smart way.

    Yoda knew there would be dire consequences if Dooku escaped. He knew thousands, if not millions, would die in galactic war if he failed to stop the Count. What does that say about Yoda if he takes the chance of allowing the war to occur just for the sake of his personal honor?

    ?You also said a of the highest level, could destroy the Death Star by only using the Force. No thanks. This is the type of thinking that makes the old Superman in the old JLA cartoon, come up with a new power all the time. It's too cheap of a way to solve things, boring, and too absurd.?

    I am not saying this is the way that the Death Star battle SHOULD have played out. What I am saying is that a Jedi of the highest level COULD have destroyed the Death Star only using the Force. But as you said, nobody wants to see that. It IS boring. Luckily (for the audience) Luke has just begun his training and turning off his targeting computer is the most he can do at the time.

    ?crushed it by the use of the force. If that were so, Palpatine would be able to do it, and hence no Death Star. Hence boring movie.?

    I never said Yoda or Palpatine had reached the highest level. In fact I said that perhaps no one ever has. It is the ideal, not the reality. But, Yoda and Palpatine are probably the strongest Force users in existence, so they should be SHOWN in that light. If the Jedi are taught that they shouldn?t depend on the physical, wouldn?t it be a sign of true Jedi strength and a sign that they are increasing their understanding of the Force to finally be able to lay down the lightsaber, a physical tool?

    ?I don't think that's what the story says about Dagobah at all. You're pretty much "inserting" that.?

    Yes I am inserting that. It?s called sub-text. The meaning behind the obvious. There is the clear idea that comes from the STORY that Daggobah is a strange place to find a Jedi master. But, it also has a deeper meaning. It is the antithesis of the Death Star and the Empire itself. SW is Buck Rogers with sub-text. That is Lucas? great accomplishment in film: Taking a B-grade genre and adding depth.

    ?In your movie, Jedi would just float around naked through the universe wishing things away. C'mon, is that fun? Of the highest level Jedis are just basically God. Not fun.?

    Not fun at all. That is why we never see anyone at the level. I don?t want to see a Jedi at that level. It WOULD be a boring movie. I will say it again: It is the ideal that the Jedi STRIVE for.

    ?Sorry, wrong movie. This is not a computer simulation, it's a galaxy far away.?

    Bu
  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I believe I mentioned it earlier, but I will again. Lucas didn't want the Jedi to be like superheroes. He wanted to place limits on what they could do with the Force and with a saber. Hence he removed Sidious using the Force choke from Courscant to Dofine on Naboo.
  14. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    Really? That sucks.

    Loyal-Guard I agree about the humour, on first viewing I enjoyed this aspect, it was just upon reflection and second viewings that it started to really sit ill with me.

  15. Princess_Tina Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2001
    star 6
    And hey, Yoda didn't step in some poop before he fought, so it isin't all bad.

    [face_laugh]
  16. Loyal-Guard Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2002
    star 1
    Actually, Now that I think about it, the more I watch the film, the only part that doesn't quite sit as well for me that did originally is that weird, pro wrestling, flex pose he does before he starts fighting.

    Anymore than that, and things really would have been screwy.
  17. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    At least he doesn't hop around like some kinda Jeet Kune Do master...*sigh*, oh well, at least it didn't go farther.

    But I did like how the two were twirling their lightsabres, like they were protecting themselves from all possible attacks, while attacking :D, very cool.

    Ciou-See the Sig
  18. DARTH_ABBADON Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2002
    star 4
    Not fun at all. That is why we never see anyone at the level. I don?t want to see a Jedi at that level. It WOULD be a boring movie. I will say it again: It is the ideal that the Jedi STRIVE for.

    I'm a bit confused by this. A few posts ago you were saying you wanted this to be the way Yoda was in AOTC. This was your whole arguement, that Yoda should be beyond the physical. But now your saying that you never want to see a Jedi like this. I don't know, maybe I'm misinterpreting what you said.
  19. MilleniumIstraShavas Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2002
    star 1
    Ill be honest, i laughed the first time i saw it. Although I wasnt laughing cause i thought it was really funny that yoda was fighting, i was laughing at the irony of his fighting style.

    He comes in on a cane, and cant hardly breath after he gets there. Then outa no where, he gets this look on his face whne he pulls out his saber as if to say: "You wanna fight Pilgrim?"

    Then this 600 year old, has to use a cane, frog starts leaping and jumping around dooku faster then dooku can turn.

    The fight was great, and i loved it, but it was also funny in its own way.

    P.S. Someone said Yoda was showing off, i dont agree. I think yoda was testing Dooku. Yoda could have dispatched dooku quickly I think, but he wanted to see just how powerful he had become.

    This is evident when right before Dooku makes the thing fall on Obi1-Ani, Yoda says: "Fought well you have."

    Now if your fighting the greatest jedi in the entire universe, and hes obviously (and literally) doing circles around you, and then he goes: "Fought well you have."

    Its quite obvious that hes just toying with you and hes about to get serious. Dooku realized that and said: "Ok, its time to leave" and thats why he created the diversion by knocking the thing down.

    All-in-all The scene was great. It was serious, and amazing in the sense we got to see Yoda really go at it. It was also somewhat comical of the irony of how Yoda fights.

    Good Scene over-all :)
  20. DARTH_ABBADON Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2002
    star 4
    I didn't laugh at all at the scene. Yeah the pose he did in the begining was stupid, but not laugh out loud stupid. I did, however, have a few friends of mine who said they laughed when they saw it. But they are the kind of people who, oh how to put this, laugh when people fall down. And not in any especially funny manner, just if someone falls down, these guys find it endlessly amusing. So I wouldn't really judge the humor factor on their reactions.
  21. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    I absolutely LOVED the "Let's get it on!" pose that Yoda struck after deflecting the falling chunks of rock! It was SO, "I am the little green master, and you just pissed me off".

    Man, why can't people relax and ENJOY these films? It's okay to smile and laugh and enjoy yourself during a Star Wars film, you know.

    -Otis
  22. Loyal-Guard Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2002
    star 1
    I agree wholeheartedly with Otis Frampton on the smiling and laughing point.

    I think one of my problems with LOTR so far was that it felt like a three hour lecture. With no sense of humor it felt like a command to the viewer that they should sit up straight and not joke around; This is a high minded literary work and should be taken as such you little, little person you.

    err...that's what I heard in my head anyway.

    The only problem, with star wars fans being some of the most particular in the world, it's hard to do much of anything out of a certian set of parameters that without getting some faction or another angry.

    And Yoda fighting, espically the way he does fight, was one of those things that was bound to confound.

    Hey...I rhymed there at the end!
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I wouldn't say Yoda was showing off. More like he was trying to overtake Dooku in battle, with his Force enhanced speed. A good demonstration of why Obi-wan didn't do so in TPM. Yoda was wiped out after the fight with Dooku. Obi-wan was already starting to tire, but not as much as Qui-gon had.
  24. Lemon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 1999
    star 1
    DARTH_ABBADON...

    What I am saying is that I would like to see Yoda more powerful than the average Jedi, but not all-powerful. He should be at an enlightened level, but that doesn?t mean he would have to be at the highest level.
  25. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "But I did like how the two were twirling their lightsabres, like they were protecting themselves from all possible attacks, while attacking , very cool."

    agreed.
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