Did Yoda's lightsaber battle diminish his credibility?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Anakin_Kenobi, Nov 27, 2002.

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  1. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "Man, why can't people relax and ENJOY these films? It's okay to smile and laugh and enjoy yourself during a Star Wars film, you know."

    Dude, I totally agree, I'm not saying other wise. I did enjoy the movie immensely, I just don't think its up to the standard of the other films.

    As a fight I think its a lot of fun, it just doesn't fit with the rest of the film IMHO, personally I find the whole last 30 min, the big battles to be a lot of fun, and i don't think any of it fits with the rest of the film.

    I think it was pulp fiction where Taratino had a delted scene where he said as a scene onto itself, he thought it was his best work, but as part of pulp fiction it didn't fit and dragged down the whole movie with it.


    "I think one of my problems with LOTR so far was that it felt like a three hour lecture. With no sense of humor it felt like a command to the viewer that they should sit up straight and not joke around; This is a high minded literary work and should be taken as such you little, little person you."

    wow really? See I thought there was a lot more humour in FOTR then AOTC. Well humour that actually made me laugh, and not things unintentionally funny.
  2. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    See I thought there was a lot more humour in FOTR then AOTC. Well humour that actually made me laugh, and not things unintentionally funny.

    Oh, come on, Rings had its fair share of groaners. "Nobody tosses a dwarf!" and anything from that dynamic duo of Merry and Pippen--you know, I've seen the movie several times, and I still can't remember which one is Merry and which one is Pippen. "Is Merry the stupid one and Pippin the really stupid one, or is it the other way around?"

    I like the movie (extended cut only) but those two characters are about as generic and interchangable as they come.
  3. Loyal-Guard Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2002
    star 1
    Well...this one's a toughie. I think when I made that post I was thinking more of the OT when it came to humor. The PT has it too, but does seem to be more of a base and/or sometimes forced variety.

    So..if you want to compare the LOTR and ATOC when it comes to "things it's ok to laugh at" than it's definitly going to come down to the wire, and most definitly be a matter of personal taste.

    Without getting into too much, I'm afraid I kind of have to agree with Durwood about humor in LOTR. I didn't care for the movie, but I did think it was a warmer film, and I understand why it has so many fans. But all those hobbits tripping over each other didn't do it for me, and that dwarf tossing comment stood out in my mind the same way the "that's gotta hurt" line did in TPM.

    Now could someone please steer us back to the yoda topic before someone brings up Jar Jar in response to my griping? Please?
  4. Anakin_Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 1
    Well, you may think LOTR was funny, but it didn't have a Jar Jar type chara.........oops, sorry.

    LOL
  5. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    So yeah, Yoda fighting in a lightsabre duel was kinda cool, except for the martial arts pose, I'm glad they did it.

    Ciou-See the Sig
  6. __Yoda__ Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2002
    Yoda's lightsabre battle was great!! Isn't Star Wars an action/adventure movie? Why take out some great action just to appease a select few that treat Star Wars as a religion that must follow strict guidelines?
    How boring.
  7. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    Its not a matter of taking it out, if should of neve rmade it past the script stage or been set up more carefully.

    If there wa sno yoda fight, and gL never made any mention of a yoda fight its not like all the gushers would hate AOTC and moan "it sucked, because there was no yoda saber duel"

    "I like the movie (extended cut only) but those two characters are about as generic and interchangable as they come."

    Thats what I felt when I read FOTR, but that definitly changes by the end of the trilogy, they end up being 2 of the most important players in ROTK, arguably the most important next to Sam and Frodo
  8. Loyal-Guard Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2002
    star 1
    Rebel-Scumb. Im intriuged as to your comment about the yoda duel being set-up diffrently.

    How would you have done it exactly? You dont have to storyboard it out scene for scene, Im just wondering how you would change and/or retrofit the scenario.
  9. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    Have Yoda discuss dooku earlier int he film, perhaps he is helping hte chancellor in the negotiations (which is logical) because of his past relationship with dooku, and the fact that dooku is a former jedi. The sad fact is nobody even mentions dooku except for padme (see my thread on that issue) until the last portion of the film, even amidst all this talk of seperatist, his name never comes up, even though he is suppose to be this upstart leader/radical idealist

    To me if you watch the whole movie yoda vs dooku isn't the logical or most pleasing way to pay off the other 2hours. I still think it shouldn't be the final duel, but if its going to be, give Yoda/dooku a stronger story arc for the film, make us believe their is a score to be settled or business to be resolved, don't throw it in haphazardly half way through the duel.
  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Well, there was more about Dooku in the film as you know. But much of that gave away too much information about who he was. Thus the lack of knowledge regarding who Dooku was. Lucas was attempting to build an aura of mystery, which is hard to do with Dooku, based on the fact that Christopher Lee is well known for playing a villian. Not exactly easy to convince the audience that he's not a villian, when it's obvious by his reputation alone.
  11. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    if only yaddle were still around to help yoda fight dooku. now THAT would have been impressive
  12. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "But much of that gave away too much information about who he was.Thus the lack of knowledge regarding who Dooku was."

    How so? Wasn't it just the lost 20 discussion? How is that too much.
    Its possible I'm forgetting something.

    "Lucas was attempting to build an aura of mystery, which is hard to do with Dooku, based on the fact that Christopher Lee is well known for playing a villian. Not exactly easy to convince the audience that he's not a villian, when it's obvious by his reputation alone."

    Added to the fact he's implicated in the assassionation, wears black, uses a red lightsaber, and works witht he viceroy, etc.

    I understand what GL was going for, but he had to go further with it, in MHO, Dooku should of beenthe one witht he purple saber, not mace, and we should of been given a reason to believe in his cause, to question our loyalty to the republic. BB said they deleted jango fromt he conference scen so as not to implicate Dooku in the assassionation but he clearly admits to it the scene before. We know that sidious must have a new apprentice, and then we have dooku admitting he has a master on coruscant, so the surprise at the end is completely ruined. Dooku using lightning is also problematic


    Dooku was handled very poorly in my opinion. And i don't think addressing him earlier or in more deail would of hurt his mysterious image, it could of helped it.
  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    First, the Lost 20 was dropped. That much is true.

    Second, the interrogation scene was dropped as it also pointed out he was more than likely a Sith or "Dark Jedi".

    It isn't until we see the fight with the Jedi at the end, that we the audience know he's a Dark Sider. But, the fans who aren't as hardcore as we are, know that there are Sith and that's it. No such thing as "Dark Jedi" according to the rules of canon. They will automatically think him evil by that point, when the duel begins. If not before hand in the arena.

    Dooku was implicated by Padme, but that doesn't necessary mean he's evil. There is reasonable doubt that he's evil, but since he is not called Darth Tyranus until the end, we know that he is at best an ex-Jedi Master. Thus we don't know he is Sidious' Apprentice. He is just an ex-Jedi Master who has turned to the Dark Side. Sidious is only mentioned in passing, but we don't know what he's doing until the end.

    What does a purple Lightsaber have to do with rank? It's never been established as such. All that's been established is that the Sith use red blades and Jedi use blue, green and purple.
  14. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    In SW blue denotes good, red denotes evil, pruple is a mix of the two.

    And we do know dooku is evil before the end, he is behind th e assassionation, he tries to fee d the good guys to monsters, he has "a master' he has plans of galactic take over, there's nothing mysterious about him.
  15. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Since when is that? That's fanboy, wishful thinking. Lucas has said that Jedi always have blue and green, now purple as well. Sith have red. Rewatch the making of video on the AOTC DVD, where the Lightsaber colors are mentioned. It was just before Jackson asked if he could have purple.
  16. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    the blue/red theory works through out the series,

    padmes apartment:blue
    Palpatines office: red

    AOTC stormtrooper blasters:blue
    OT stormtrooper blasters: red
    Republic guards: blue
    imperial guards: red
    bens saber: blue
    vaders saber: red
    Kaminio: blue
    Geonosis: red

    there's dozens of other exampls, there's an old thread on it somewhere.
  17. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    Mace has a purple lightsaber because GL wanted to make his friend happy. It has nothing to do with anything else.

    Back on topic . .

    The Yoda duel will always be one of my favorite scenes in any Star Wars film. Where others may see unintentional humor, I see poetry in motion. It reminds me of another film which features gravity-defying duels full of incredible, sometimes impossible feats of acrobatic beauty.

    Here are some comparisons of the two:

    [image=http://www.otisframpton.com/AOTC_CTHD_1.jpg]

    [image=http://www.otisframpton.com/AOTC_CTHD_2.jpg]

    [image=http://www.otisframpton.com/AOTC_CTHD_3.jpg]

    Do the unrealistic, impossibly acrobatic duels in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" take away from the seriousness of the film? Do they undermine any of the characters or distract from the narrative?

    I don't think so. For me, they only add to the beauty of the film.

    Just a thought.

    -Otis
  18. augusto Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 4
    Otis;

    Nice shots, those look like you should put in their own thread, to have a discussion of Yoda's fighting style. Good stuff.

    One of Yoda's moves reminded me of the Jackie Chan movie the "Drunken Master". Anybody seen that film. I saw it a loooong time ago, so maybe I'm getting it confused.
  19. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    I would love to see more comparisons to other films. These were just the ones that immediately sprung to mind.

    If I still had my "Seven Samurai" DVD I would post some comparisons from that film, but alas . . it was taken from me in "The Robbery of 2001". :(

    Of course, you could alwats go here to see some great Kurosawa/Lucas comparisons:

    Is Akira Kurosawa the key? Ep 3 Spoilers Allowed

    -Otis
  20. ksid Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2002
    star 4
    Well that's because Otis Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is an artistic movie.

    While AOTC is a pretty blunt movie, not an artistic endeavor IMO. Unless, it's to break new grounds in special effects.

    The two are like apples and oranges.



    "He is more machine now than man" - Obi-Wan Kenobi


  21. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    <<not an artistic endeavor IMO>>

    Every film is an artistic endeavor.

    Even the ones you do not personally care for.

    -Otis
  22. augusto Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 4
    Otis;

    I was going to say that too, but didn't want to get a "look for the meaning of artistic endeavor in the dictionary" response.

    ;)

    *runs away and goes to sleep*
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The Lightsaber color began with ANH's first draft. There the blades were red. Then in the second draft, they were peral white. They were blue by the final draft and film. However, it was during post production that the blade for Vader was re-colored red.

    When ROTJ was in post, Lucas discovered that the blue blade for Luke's new saber didn't show up against the sand and skyline. Thus the blade was changed to green and used for the film. This carried over to TPM for the Tatooine scenes with Qui-gon. During AOTC, Jackson asked about the colors and was told that only Jedi have blue and green. Sith have red. He asked about purple, since it's his favorite color as he mentioned in the DVD for Unbreakable. Lucas said "we'll see" and from there, the purple blade was born. Has nothing to do with his being good or bad. Just that it's a color for the Jedi, namely him.

    You would have something with the blaster bolts, except for one problem. All blasters are red in the saga, save for the Clonetroopers. Lucas and production designers talked about the color scheme for Palpatine's office, but not about saber blades other than what was mentioned.
  24. bjbrickm Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2002
    star 3
    Film is art.

    SW is definitely art. Maybe not your style, but that doesn't stop it from being art.

    As an artist that's how I feel. So I agree with Otis and augusto.
  25. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    Here are some more comparisons from the two films and their balletic duels . .

    This one is amazingly similar. two old, seemingly feeble characters hobbling into battle:

    [image=http://www.otisframpton.com/AOTC_CTHD_4.jpg]

    Another similar situation. Anyone who has seen the two films will notice the situations immediately:

    [image=http://www.otisframpton.com/AOTC_CTHD_5.jpg]

    The next two are eerily identical:

    [image=http://www.otisframpton.com/AOTC_CTHD_6.jpg]

    [image=http://www.otisframpton.com/AOTC_CTHD_7.jpg]

    And this one I chose not only for the similar motions and stances, but because her sword could just as well be a blue lightsaber:

    [image=http://www.otisframpton.com/AOTC_CTHD_8.jpg]

    Enjoy.

    -Otis
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