PT Did you grow up with the OT and still love the prequels?

Right. And there was more.

"He's so overwhelming in that first film, but you get to the point where you say, "Wait a minute, if he's so powerful, why doesn't he run the universe?" He even gets pushed around by the governors! They know the Emperor is the final word, so what happens is the same thing that happens in any corporation: Everybody worries about the top man, they don't worry about his goon. And by the time the Death Star is finished, it gives them the sense that they have a bigger, better suit than Darth Vader. In a standoff between the Death Star and Darth Vader, they have no question about who would win, and it's not this mumbo-jumbo Sith guy. So it's even more tragic, because he's not even an all-powerful bad guy, he's kind of a flunky."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview 2005.

"At this point, Vader’s plan really, now that he knows he’s his son, is to convince him to come with him. Join the dark side and together they’re going to overthrow the Emperor, which is the thematic devices used through the whole movies in terms of the Sith, which is Sith Lords are usually no more than two because if there are three, then two of them will gang up on one to try to become the dominate Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn’t been debilitated and now he’s half machine and half man, so he’s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he’s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn’t. Luke is Vader’s hope. His motives at this point are purely evil. He simply wants to continue on what he was doing before which is get rid of the Emperor and make himself Emperor. He only sees his son as a mechanism for the ambition. His mad lust of power."

--George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

"The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Let's face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice."

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

 

It doesn't matter. The movies never mention "total midichlorians" in connection with Force potential, because they never mention "total midichlorians" in connection with anything. They never talk about the quantity at all.

No. I watched a movie. TPM explicitly refers to midichlorian count as a cell concentration, and by the way it is determined in the film we can see that it is computed from a blood sample, not by compiling the values of all cells in the body.

We can see this sort of thing at work in Legends EU books such as Children of the Jedi where Luke's ability to use the Force is hindered by temporary injury. It follows that permanent injury could have an effect on Force ability.

Does he have to mention that there can be more than one possible variable influencing Force potential?

But it's not obvious that Force potential must be dependent on number of cells.

Like I said, nothing in there about midichlorians. Lucas has never used the word "midichlorians" in a statement about Anakin's injuries.

It isn't.

 

Me too.

 

No, that does not follow. ( Especially given that some of the injuries have little or nothing to do with diminishing the number of body cells. )

Which, as far as we know, is still a completely irrelevant quantity.

The cell concentration, not the total number.

No, he "has" to mention that the loss in potential is due to lost midichlorians... but he doesn't.

Because Vader loses Force potential even when his remaining cells have the same midichlorian concentration.

 

Keep going in circles all you want...

 

Nevermind. Redundant post.

 

agree. I was 6 when the original Star Wars came out and I love the prequels as much as the OT.

 

It doesn't matter. There is still no evidence that Force potential depends generally on number of cells.

Can it be reasonably assumed that the beings in the galaxy ( Jedi and others ) who are most skilled with the Force are also the ones with the most cells? Or is there a different dynamic at work?

And there's still no evidence that the total quantity has any relevance.

Where did he mention that? His film showed that midichlorian cell concentration is used as an indicator of Jedi potential, while not mentioning total quantity of midichlorians in any context.

What do you think is happening when he refers to injuries or physical impairments that don't amount to missing midichlorians? At this point, the reason is hardly "unknown".

In several places Lucas has indicated that Vader loses Force potential, which I thought was part of your argument in the first place. In fact, you've quoted the "when & where" yourself. Are you now trying to walk that back or something?

So much for "unknown"...

 

So your position is that Force potential does not depend on number of cells?

So you admit that the most powerful Force-users are not typically the ones with the most cells?

And there's still no evidence that total quantity of midichlorians has any relevance.

So, in other words, he never mentioned that anywhere?

Wrong. Vader was burned up and requires a machine to do his breathing for him.

There is no mention of hindered Force potential in the movies at all. Meanwhile, Vader being dependent on a life-support apparatus which controls his breathing is definitely in the movies.

 

Did you grow up with the OT and still love the prequels?
I'm actually at that fine point of growing up with both, and yes, I do love both. I was 7 when the SE OT was released in theatres and I was inlove from the minute I saw them. Then TPM came out when I was 10 and I liked it, but I was still old enough to know the OT was better in terms of acting/ dialogue and I even prefer the effects of the OT way better than the PT. I give the PT a hard time sometimes, but I still do love it, especially because it's Darth Vader's story who was always my favourite as a kid. So maybe I have the OT to thank for liking the PT, and in a weird way, vice versa.

I could see it being harder for those who were kids during '77 and getting to see it when it first came out, only to see TPM 22 years later.

 

So your position is that Force potential does not depend on number of cells? Or do you simply refuse to answer?

So your position is that the most powerful Force-users are not typically the ones with the most cells? Or do you simply refuse to answer?

Where is the evidence? Which one of these is measured in the films, and which one is never spoken of? How many of the Jedi are massive in size or morbidly obese? Why was Luke's potential never said to be affected?

So where did Lucas mention that Force potential is dependent on the quantity of midichlorians? Or does repeatedly copying and pasting the same block of text which ignores the question mean that you refuse to answer?

No. Vader was burned up and required a machine to breathe for him. That is not wrong, it's a fact, it's just that it's inconvenient to your position.

That is not the full summary of his injuries, as should be clear to anyone who watched the movies.

Which one of us missed the part about Vader being on life support?

I quote: "No example of injuries that don't amount to missing midichlorians hindering Force-potential in the movies."

The point is that the movies in isolation from Lucas' comments don't establish the hindering of Force potential. It doesn't matter whether the word used is mention, establish, display, prove, or some other word, the point would be similar.

Not his only injuries. In fact, no one would have characterized his injuries that way in the OT days.

 

...and you still haven't provided anything from the movies to back your case:
I quote: Arawn_Fenn - Midichlorian count is not necessarily the only thing that can influence Force potential. # 141
Ok...
Where is something other than midichlorians mentioned in the movies that influences Force potential?
Why is your baseless assumption correct and my extrapolation from things we know is wrong?
Nor have you provided any explanation as to how&why injuries can hinder Force potential!


My case is simple:
Midichlorian cell count is the quantity of midichlorians in a body cell.
Quantity of midichlorians is therefore crucial to Force potential (as we see in the movies).
Therefore someone losing body cells (which contain midichlorians) would diminish his Force potential.

Ergo: Vader lost his 4 limbs >>> lost a lot of body cells which contained midichlorians >>> loss of midichlorians diminished his Force potential.
I see no problem in this explanation nor does it contradict anything that we see or hear in the movies.

 

Where did Lucas say that again?

That's not an answer to the question that was asked. Are the most powerful Force users the ones with the most cells, or not?

And total number of body cells, in and of itself, has no relevance to Force potential that we know of.

That's because it's a blood test, so they just need to test some blood.

If you need to find out midichlorian count, you just need to test some cells.

If you need to find out "total midichlorians", you just need to test... ???

One of these things is not like the other; one of these things does not belong.

Only the cell concentration is established as being relevant to Force potential, not the total amount.

But think of all the midichlorians!

Mathematically speaking it still "should" have affected his potential in a nontrivial fashion, but apparently it didn't. Just like Anakin's potential wasn't affected by losing an arm in AOTC. All those lost midichlorians, and nothing happened.

Incorrect. Lucas has referred to injuries in this context that have nothing to do with missing midichlorians, and the viewers can easily see for themselves that Anakin has other physical problems besides missing arms and legs.

You said that all of his injuries were about missing midichlorians, and you said that the statement "Vader was burned up and requires a machine to do his breathing for him" was wrong, and you followed that by continuing to talk about arms and legs as though they constituted the entire situation. That's effectively the same thing.

Maybe you're having trouble with the concept of burden of proof? Why do I have to find something from the movies to prove that something is not necessarily true?

Why did Obi-Wan suddenly stop fighting and fall down during his battle with Dooku in AOTC? Did he have a sudden change of heart? Or is it because of all the midichlorians he lost?

 

I've already answered to everything.
You haven't answered to anything you claimed to be as you claimed.
You (again) remove words&sentences of mine out of context to make yourself look correct.

Keep trolling dude...keep trolling...

 

So why was Obi-Wan unable to continue fighting Dooku?

It must have been those pesky midichlorians again!

 

What?
Because Obi-Wan was cut on the leg and arm by a lightsaber...
It's called severe pain from having flesh&muscle tissue being damaged/cut/burned.
That can happen to people here on earth too you know and we don't have any midichlorians nor Force powers or potential...
...and despite what you see in other movies like Rambo II, wounds like that impair your movement and much more so your ability to fight...

Keep trolling dude...keep trolling...

 

As a child of the early 80's I grew up on and LOVED the OT. Most of my childhood was spent playing with the action figures and watching the movies. That being said, I did also enjoy the prequels. Though it did not live up fully to my expectations, I still enjoyed them. I understand some of the hate out there, but a lot of hate that I have read was just plain and simple nasty. I left some other forums on other pages because the fights and hatred people were spewing back and forth was disgusting. Everyone has an opinion and should be able to share it without the abusive. Anyhow I am rambling on.

 

Remind you of anyone??

But he doesn't need to move around to use the Force. Luke didn't. I'm not talking about his ability to fight by swinging a lightsaber around. He can fight with the Force, can't he? So why doesn't he do that?

Is it because of all the lost midichlorians?

 

yes.

 

P.S. I forgot...Obi-Wan became more powerfull than you could possibly imagine by joining the Force, to only give advice...
As if he did anything more before...oh wait, he did! He did physically help the trio on the DS...

 

But he doesn't. So why doesn't he? How to explain his sudden lack of interest in preserving his life, defending his padawan, defeating the Sith?

Wrong. One day when you actually watch the movies you'll see him using the Force to do other things. So there must be another explanation. Maybe it's all the midichlorians he didn't lose!