CT Did you imagine Vader to be a child-killer? (Pre-PT)

One of the more peculiar critiques of the Prequels I've read concerns Vader's massacre of the younglings, insofar as how it purportedly augments/detracts from the character's tragic nature and eventual redemption.

I use the word "peculiar", because prior to the PT, I had assumed that Vader's immense body count inevitably included children. After all, the despicable villain embraced torture, cowardly resolutions (e.g., striking down an outnumbered and unarmed Old Ben), and cosmocide, so why wouldn't he have young blood on his hands?

What were your assumptions?

 

I think the entire Saga has been way too tame.

 

Same here.

I didn't think much about Vader's past, so I probably can't say it ever specifically came to mind, but I assumed it as a matter of course. I certainly never thought he was above it, or that was a line he would never cross.

I held him at least partially responsible for the destruction of Alderaan, and I'm sure that included the deaths of a huge number of children. So, he had already killed children during the OT, in my mind.

 

Vader's killing of the younglings didn't alter my perception of him at all. His actions were already deplorable enough to make it impossible for him to right his wrongs in the 'balancing of the scales' sense. Other things about Anakin / Vader in the PT altered my perception of him, but not that. Well, they would if I based my perceptions of anything in the OT on what happens in the PT.

 

My response to this is the movies did a good job of showing Vader's crimes at the beginning and the end of his role as Darth Vader, but the cartoons and EU have shied away from it.

I thought the movies, even oriented for kids as they are, did a way better job of describing Vader's crimes than the EU, which is more adult-focused. For the sake of the kids most of the mass-murder is referenced indirectly, or inferred such as the younglings murder and his rampages through the Jedi Temple and the Tusken village, but you get what's going on. You see when he kills individuals when it serves a purpose or someone obstructs his plans intentionally (Jedi, Kenobi, Xizor) or by accident (Needa, Ozzel and arguably Amidala).

With the EU, particularly between ROTS and ANH has really shied away from Vader's ability to do violence to innocents. But as his life was filled out by cartoons and EU novels, Vader's crimes have been immensely toned down from the expectations from the movies. I do get that the publishers are uneasy having writers bluntly describe Vader's more serious crimes. They paint him in a tragic or sympathetic light, and no-one tackles the Dark Side for what it is or exposes it head-on in what are more adult-oriented markets, like books. I do like that Vader does not kill for pleasure or casually or without (from his point of view) good reason, but you don't see the kinds of things he did in the movie either.

Of course, I could definitely be wrong and there could be good examples from EU games or books or whatever that I didn't buy.

 

Vader's kills in the old EU tended to be "a lot of people at once" - bombardments wiping out millions or even billions, like the massacre of Caamas. Even really old EU works like the Devilworlds comics made a point of saying that he had the blood of billions on his hands.

Recently, there's been a move toward "small-scale horror" - Vader personally slaughtering the populations of small villages (Tusken and Twilek) with his own lightsaber.

 

Yes, Vader in the new Canon is responsible for a bunch of atrocious acts, including Genocide of the Geonosians (unless I was reading it wrong?).

When I saw ROTS, I wasn't surprised or shocked to see him kill children. I always thought he would be capable of such a thing, after all he doesn't interfere when Tarkin has an entire planet destroyed, and how many children live on a planet?

 

I actually figured he'd do something of that level. He showed no hesitation to murder anyone who stood in his way and stood by while Tarkin murdered a planet full of children. He didn't even show any level of disturbance over that, not even a, "dude, what the hell?'

What I didn't expect though, was that he'd be killing kids in the hopes of obtaining some life-saving power to save his wife from a vision that may or may not happen. Especially not so soon after his turn.

 

I hadn't considered it as a specific thing simply because I had never put him in a situation where he could, in my mind. But it certainly wouldn't have been inconceivable to me that he would, as presented in the OT. A man who is entirely complicit in the destruction of a neutral planet is not a man with many qualms and killing children personally certainly wouldn't have been a line I'd have drawn regarding Vader's presentation.

 

"Vader helped to hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights."

I mean, it says it right there. I never assumed that he left the kids alone. The Emperor was very specific in that they eliminate as many force sensitives as possible. Children included.

 

Never thought about the kid thing but yeah, your quote nails it.

 

I would've liked to see some hesitation.

 

It was pretty much a given that at some point, children would be trained as Jedi and subsequently be killed.

 

Watching the Original Trilogy, without any knowledge of the prequels, I don't think Vader killing children was a surprise. He and Tarking blew up Alderaan and would've likely blown up other planets without hesitation.

My only problem with Vader killing children in the prequels is that it kind of comes out of nowhere and I didn't feel he was that evil at that point. But I'm not here to bash on the prequels writing.

 

He was becoming evil which was the point in killing the Younglings. Palpatine tells him to use his anger and his hate, but to not hold back. To not show mercy or to hesitate.

 

Unless for some reason he thought there were no children on Alderaan....

 

Because he killed them first, he knew.

 

Prior to the release of ROTS, I hadn't really thought about it. I was probably a hair upset and surprised the first time. Years later, it makes sense and is in character.

Darth Vader has no limits.

 

What would you prefer? Newborn rape ala A Serbian Film? There's few things worse than child murder and planetary genocide.

 

No, I *rather* see people *affected* by it and it not be *sanitised*.

 

Yeah... but that's not what Star Wars is all about dude. It never has been. It's lightsabers and force powers and aliens and star ships, bombast and action and thrills. You have heroic heroes defeating evil villains and lots of special effects. The films have never been really introspective about The Horror Of War and never pretended to be.

 

As it is - we do see that Ewok grieving over his just-killed friend.

 

Doesn't mean that's a good thing or that a shift of focus wouldn't be welcome by some though.

 

It IS kind of a good thing though. It's pulp fiction in space. It's a good old fashioned adventure movie with space ships and aliens. There is a place for philosophical war movies and reflective films about the consequences of war, things like Full Metal Jacket and so forth. But not every film NEEDS that kind of debate. Star Wars is deliberately old fashioned like that. The good guys win, the bad guys die. It gets more complex as it goes on (deliberately) but if I really wanted to reflect on the nature of war I'd watch a film about the nature of war. Star Wars is what I watch for fun and thrills, and it's pretty darn good at it.

 

I think murdering children is still way out of place in Star Wars (and yeah I know there were some on Alderaan but that's a different kind of death).

though tbh this thread has raised an interesting point on morality in these films. sometimes it's weird to me hearing this happy music and watching the heroes almost having fun as dehumanised "faceless" storm troopers are losing their lives. the only thing that makes it kind of okay in star wars is that all life is the force and nobody really dies or w/e. but in say, Indiana Jones, it's even weirder. people are being burned alive and there's playful adventure music and **** wtf.

I can give ROTS more credit. the playful scenes were battledroids and everything else was appropriately darker in tone. I guess most of the battle scenes and lightsaber fights in the series are appropriate in tone. it's just stuff like the detention shoot out scene. yeah this is fun and all but that conscript they just shot has now had his life destroyed yeah fun adventures.