CT Did you really believe that Luke was in danger of turning to the dark side?

When was he tortured by the Emperor?

When has Luke really shown any lust for power? He didn't crave it like Anakin did, we don't hear him saying anything about wanting to be the most powerful Jedi ever.

Luke seems to "see through the lies of the Jedi" (lol), he gets over it very quickly and is adamant that he will not kill his father. Luke accepts their lies and takes a stance I don't think they intended, but somehow (because Luke is such a goodie goodie) it all works out for the best. One could say...Luke did not fear the dark side as they did (lol), at that point.

I'll concede that I can think about it, but I could never feel it.

 

I consider those long, painful moments where he's being attacked with force lightning as torture.

He's never been tempted by lust, sure. But never before doesn't mean never ever. And psychologically speaking, a revelation in which one realize that they've been lied to for their entire life by everyone they love and admire would be enough to change a hero. No Jedi was ever infallible.

The dark side appears to clearly be taking a hold of Luke as he violently slings his blade and cuts his father's hand off. That's not something Luke would've ever done before. The entire fight on the Death Star is a flirtatious dance in the dark with evil itself.


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I absolutely believed Luke could turn. Mark's performances are much more solid than Hayden's for me. Luke has heart and credibility both for love and hate that his father lacks.

 

Okay I can see that, but I think it's relevant that Luke had already thrown his lightsaber away at that point and the Emperor is no longer trying to turn him, just kill him slowly and painfully. I think we're past the choice at this point, at least in terms of a story.

Oh, I agree and have said this many times...but apparently Luke just rolls with it, and apparently his change is to develop very strong compassion for his father.

I agree theoretically, and I've also said this before, especially about Leia's vulnerability.

But I've never felt that Luke was vulnerable.


Good chat.

 

Basically this–even though I was eight years old at the time, I basically figured that there would be a good ending.

 

Agree to disagree, I suppose. Not everyone interprets the film the same way.


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Palpatine was torturing Luke as punishment for defying him.

EMPEROR: "Young fool... only now, at the end, do you understand. Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side. You have paid the price for your lack of vision." Then he stops for a moment, before resuming. "Now, young Skywalker...you will die."

That's why Vader was shocked when Luke let go and fell down the shaft. Vader had believed that he could foster the same hate in Obi-wan that he had, once he realized that Luke was totally in the dark about who he really was. That's why he brings up when he does as opposed to when they finally come face to face in the carbonite chamber.

It started with those scenes and continued with the threat to the Alliance through the revelation that the Endor mission was a trap and then finding out that the Death Star was operational. That's why Palpatine can sense Luke's fear, anger and hate. This then leads to the start of the duel and Luke giving in to his emotions, hence seeing the glee in his face after kicking Vader down the stairs. He wants to kill his father. And then there's the Leia factor which Obi-wan warned about.

"Most of this sequence with Luke really had to do with making him angry and to try to tempt him to become angry and Luke fighting that temptation. Which obviously eventually he does and eventually again he doesn’t. But that’s the real tension in this whole scene is “Will he become angry enough to try to attack the Emperor?” I mean what the Emperor wants basically is from him to kill his father so he can take his place, which is the same thing his father is trying to get him to do is kill the Emperor so Vader can take the Emperor’s place."

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary, 2004

"The key issue in these movies is for a Jedi not to use anger when he’s fighting. So the final confrontation here is primarily about trying to make Luke become angry, so that when he fights his father he’s fighting in anger, therefore begins to use the dark side of the Force, and therefore sort of succumbs to the dark side of the Force. In The Empire Strikes Back we had them confront each other and fight together. But in this film Luke has become more mature so that now he knows he shouldn’t be fighting him—that is the path to the dark side. So it’s basically a confrontation between two people and one of them doesn’t want to fight, and the other one keeps trying to push him into it. And then in the end when he gives up and they really do fight, what’s happening there is that ultimately Luke is turning to the dark side, and all is going to be lost."

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary, 2004

"In the end I had a problem in the fight between Luke and his father of why he makes the final turn--Luke makes the final turn to the bad side of the Force and tries to kill his father. Richard [Marquand] was trying to block out the fight between Luke and Vader and we got down to that point underneath the throne room there and he said, 'You know the script sort of says that Vader says something that upsets Luke,' or something vague like that. I can't remember exactly what the script said but it was a very vague...spark. And we didn't have that actual moment that we needed where you got the sense that Luke is hiding. He's not going to fight him. He refuses to fight. He'd rather die first and then something turns him around and makes him fight. And I never really came up with a satisfactory answer to that of what he could possibly say to set Luke off. And in the process of evolving the script and evolving the importance of Leia as the sister, it was sitting right there in front of my face and it became obvious that turning her to the dark side would be the thing that would set Luke off again."

--George Lucas, ROTJ Annotated Screenplay; 1999

 

Yes it does. They're all capable of it. Anyone can embrace evil. It simply depends on the right situation and the right moment . . . and it can happen. Why do people want to believe in this illusion that only certain individuals are capable of embracing evil?

 

Because only certain people will choose to embrace it. Those who do are emotionally weak and unwilling to endure the hardships and trials of life. Anakin chose to become evil because he was weak. He was weak of conscience, heart and emotionally. Luke wasn't which is why he didn't turn. Otherwise everyone is evil and we know that isn't true. I could make the choice to rape and kill, but I don't because I know that not only is it wrong, but I am strong enough to avoid giving into that temptation.

 

What are you talking about? Of course embracing evil is a choice. But everyone has the potential to make that choice. All it takes is the right incentive and the right situation.

I feel so sorry for humanity. I wonder if there is another species incapable of facing the hard truths about itself. We're certainly incapable of it. Luke didn't turn because he was lucky. In my opinion, Palpatine's big mouth saved his bacon. But he has his own set of weaknesses that made him come close to embracing evil and that still gives him the potential to make that choice. He, and all of the other characters, will always possess those weaknesses and the potential for evil.

 

So in your view, anyone who isn't evil, is only not so out of dumb luck? Interesting.

Certainly we all have the potential for wrongdoing, but I like to think the potential for good in many is also a powerful 'force' borne of inner fortitude and integrity, as demonstrated by Mr Skywalker Jr. I guess I haven't quite given up on my species just yet.

 

OBI-WAN: "In my experience, there's no such thing as luck."

Luke didn't turn because he finally realized what he was becoming. He finally understood that he didn't hate his father, he hated himself. He hated the darkness that exists and thus chose to reject it. Thus he won't turn because now he understands the lesson of the cave and is thus stronger for it. Anakin feared what was on the other side of the door which was a life alone and he winds up being alone as Vader.

 

Where have all the flowers gone, long time passing?
Where have all the flowers gone, long time ago?
Where have all the flowers gone?
Young girls have picked them everyone.
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Oh, when will they ever learn?



Forgive us DRush76, for we know not what we do.

Fortunately you don't have to die for our sins because apparently some guy already did that.

Tracey, the arrogant, better than thou species you're looking for is Elf, or Space Elf for space franchises.

 

I had no clue whatsoever whats gonna happen. For all the flack ROTJ gets, the climax was very well done and I was so immersed in the moment I just didnt have a slightest clue what will happen next. I havent thought about whether he will turn or not, I was just devouring the moment

 

I'm human. There were times I found myself wishing I was another species. But after watching many nature shows, I've come to realize that many species are flawed in similar ways. In regard to harboring illusions about one's species, I haven't the foggiest idea how other species feel. I do believe that we humans harbor deep illusions about ourselves. And sometimes, those illusions manifest in our opinions of fictional characters. I'm sorry if my opinion upsets you.

And you know this . . . how?

 

Anyway, where were we? Ah yes, Luke and the dark side.

 

Throughout most of ROTJ? No. But when Luke takes that swing at the Emperor there is a brief moment where he could turn, or so I felt myself. You could see his anger and intensity of emotion in his facial expression in that brief moment. Once he reverts to I will not fight you father mode then it no longer seems possible that he could turn.

 

Either way it's a decent bit of acting isn't it?

 

Definitely. Here's the best picture I could find of that moment.

 

....he's got a backward grip there. Not that it matters.

 

Wow. I had no idea that my comments really bothered you. I never claimed to be better than the human race. Considering my observations of myself and my fellow human beings, I wish I were. But alas . . . it didn't happen. Can you say the same?


As for Luke, I think the saga made it clear that he was not only capable of embracing evil, but he was in danger of doing so . . . like most of the other characters.