Different outlook on the Jedi from OT - PT

I know this has been mentioned all over these boards, but I have never seen a post approaching this topic from this specific angle.

Think back to when you first saw ESB. When the Emperor tells Vader that Luke must not become a jedi knight, I got the impression that the Emperor was scared of jedi. I remember thinking that if Luke managed to become a jedi, he would easily defeat Vader and the Emperor. The whole idea made the Jedi seem really powerful.

Now that we know how easily the Sith wiped out the jedi, it doesn't seem so mystical.

Now I know the Emperor knew Luke was a threat because he was Vader's son, but it seems that being a jedi wasn't really as important as his relationship. I suppose being a jedi helped him get close to Vader.

Anyway, I'm just curious as to anyone else's opinion on this idea. What was your impression of the Jedi based on the Emperor's remarks to Vader in ESB?

 

I posted a very similar argument on the AoTC forum under "The Jedi: Not as Badass as we thought." But most of the people there are lucas zealots and refuse to question anything in the movies.

 

I read that post in the other forum, and both of you bring up something that had bothered me ever since watching AOTC.

The OT certainly does give you the feeling that the Jedi themselves are warriors w/o equal. As impressive as Luke was by the end of ROTJ, Lucas had pretty much always said that he was a "low-rent" Jedi at at that point because he hadn't received the extensive training that the Jedi of the Old Republic had received. From the time I had first watched the OT as a child back in the late 70s/early 80s, until the PT, I was always under the impression that "true" Jedi Knights were just the cat's meow.

Then comes TPM, which pretty much cemented this idea. From Obi-Wan's and Qui-Gon's dispatching of the Battle Droids on the Trade Federation ship, right up though Obi-Wan's victory of Maul, it seemed as if the Jedi were indeed everything I had imagined them to be.

But then came AOTC. Now whether by design ("Our ability to use the force has diminished") or not, the Jedi definitely seem significantly less powerful than they did on TPM. ESPECIALLY Obi-Wan. As a Padawan he seemed a much more effective combatant than he was as a full-fledged Knight with 10 more years experience under his belt. This is my major beef with AOTC (which I otherwise love) - Obi-Wan's power seems ridiculously reduced from the previous movie. As for the generic, joe six-pack Jedi, well, they are pathetic.

I realize that for story purposes, the Jedi couldn't truly be all-powerful (if so, they would have never been extinguished), but AOTC did a lot to damage the sterling reputation they had built up in my imagination.

 

JediScott
When the Emperor tells Vader that Luke must not become a jedi knight, I got the impression that the Emperor was scared of jedi. I remember thinking that if Luke managed to become a jedi, he would easily defeat Vader and the Emperor. The whole idea made the Jedi seem really powerful.

Yeah, I remember thinking something like that as well, after the ESB Palpatine-Vader chat and Obi-wan's "for thousands of generations, the Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy" speech in ANH. Both of those Jedi mentions just beg for questions about what makes these Jedi people so important.

Then I remember Obi-wan's death by Vader and his following disincorporated existence, Luke's defeat by Vader in ESB, and Yoda living on this muddy swamp of a planet. And I think Jedi (or Jedi-to-be) are not invincible or all-powerful. And I doubt whether Luke can defeat Vader and his Emperor because he's young and alone while Palpatine and Vader have been ruling the Empire together for decades.

Now that we know how easily the Sith wiped out the jedi, it doesn't seem so mystical.

Remember that destroying the Jedi Order took Palpatine over twenty years of behind-the-scenes plotting and a full-blown galactic war. Even then the old man didn't manage to eliminate either Obi-wan or Yoda.

Well, he was also getting himself made Emperor, but the Jedi had to go before that could happen.

Now I know the Emperor knew Luke was a threat because he was Vader's son, but it seems that being a jedi wasn't really as important as his relationship. I suppose being a jedi helped him get close to Vader.

Like I said above, Luke, the lone Jedi, probably, logically, wouldn't be a great threat to Palpatine and Vader. It's possible Palpatine doesn't want any Jedi around on principle. Or, another way to look at it, he wants to stamp out any resurgence of the Jedi, no matter how small, immediately. That could be a reflection of, if not how powerful a warrior each individual Jedi is, then of the strength of an order of Jedi or the abilities of any single Jedi to sway the average GFFA resident. I like to think Luke certainly became a living symbol and inspiration for the Rebellion, both as the first new Jedi (close enough) in decades and for the destruction of the Death Star that his Force heritage made possible.

That Luke is Vader's son... Well, that has to be galling.

Palpatine: Apprentice! Your brat of a son blew my Death Star into itty-bitty pieces and is now running around with a ragtag bunch of no-good guerillas and creating a load of annoying little problems around my Empire! Go find him and stop him!
Vader: <sigh> Yes, my master. Stupid boy.

sideswipe1984
[T]hen came AOTC. Now whether by design ("Our ability to use the force has diminished") or not, the Jedi definitely seem significantly less powerful than they did on TPM. ESPECIALLY Obi-Wan. As a Padawan he seemed a much more effective combatant than he was as a full-fledged Knight with 10 more years experience under his belt. This is my major beef with AOTC (which I otherwise love) - Obi-Wan's power seems ridiculously reduced from the previous movie.

I've always thought Jedi just learn to use the Force less and less as they grow older and mature. They still grow in power, but this power is only visible when necessary or may be directed toward more spiritual pursuits. In short, older Jedi generally leave the running around and fighting to the youngsters, but will be glad to whip miscreants into shape when they feel they need to. (Think of TPM Yoda. Then AOTC Yoda. Or ESB Yoda's introduction, and then his lifting of the X-wing.)

Obi-wan takes a mentor role for Anakin and a detective role for the Council in AOTC. Both of these roles are more cerebral than his TPM role of Padawan "yes, Master" Kenobi. Besides, I thought the Obi-wan vs. Jango rain fight was really, really cool.

As for the generic, joe six-pack Jedi, well, they are pathetic.

Hey, those were really horribl

 

Now that we know how easily the Sith wiped out the jedi, it doesn't seem so mystical.


I am afraid I have to disagree. Planning your revenge for close to 1000 years is no easy task and indicated how delicately the Sith had to proceed in their return without gaining the attention of the Jedi. I think alot of people mistakenly feel the Sith overthrew the Jedi easily because they only witnessed the fruits of a plan that was a millenium in the making.

 

But the point is, it would be cool if the sith overthrew the jedi...thats what i always thought happened. the point is that they were beaten by a bunch of droids and were saved by clones. like some previous posts have mentioned... the jedi were built up to be nearly unstoppable but in the end they turned out to be a huge disapointment. epsecially when the one jedi was blasted with ease by jango, a common bounty hunter. it made my stomach turn.

 

See, I enjoyed Jango vs. Obi-Wan very much , as well. Hell, it would have been a bit boring if Obi-Wan just charged in there, spanked Jango and rushed back to Coruscant with him in tow. And I realize that it wasn't a toe-to-toe fight either. Jango had about every conceivable advantage in that fight and still just barely managed to slink away onto Slave I before he was captured.

But I don't know if I can agree with the point that Obi-Wan was just holding back for when he really needed to unleash a can of whoopass on heavy-hitters. He looked positively impotent vs. Dooku. If ever he needed to step up to the plate, it was against him. Compare that to how he looked against Maul. Now, one could argue that Dooku was THAT much more powerful than Maul, but to me, as an observer, it looked like Kenobi had lost more than a step.

Also factored in, I suppose, is the difference in fighting style that Kenobi adopted since TPM. You could go into the EU to explain that he adopted a type VI (or whatever #) form in favor of the more acrobatic type III he used in TPM, but whatever the reason, there was definitely a change in styles.

I don't know,I am more or less just voicing the ideas on this subject that have stuck with me since AOTC. I still find AOTC to be a better overall movie, but one of the things that I really hold dear about TPM is the young Obi-Wan's portrayal, and the Jedi's overall sense of nigh invulnerability.

 

I am afraid I have to disagree. Planning your revenge for close to 1000 years is no easy task and indicated how delicately the Sith had to proceed in their return without gaining the attention of the Jedi. I think alot of people mistakenly feel the Sith overthrew the Jedi easily because they only witnessed the fruits of a plan that was a millenium in the making.

I totally agree with this comment. Maybe that is a weakness in the prequels. Instead of making the Sith appear to be incredibly cunning, the prequels make the jedi seem weak and naive.

The funny thing is, I think both Ep. I and Ep. II are great. This whole idea didn't bother me until the other day when I was watching ROTJ. (Side note-here I am referring to something from ESB that occured to me during ROTJ!!!)

Anyway, I don't really have any ideas as to how this whole plot line could have been made better. Maybe we are just meant to infer that the 1000 year plan is incredibly effective.

 

grav1mage
the point is that they were beaten by a bunch of droids and were saved by clones.

Yes, but it was a lot, lot, lot of droids. An army of droids. That were then opposed by a lot, lot, lot of clones. As Qui-gon implies in TPM, and Mace outright says in AOTC, Jedi are protectors of the peace, powerful guardians, not soldiers. Individual Jedi (and, for that matter, Sith) have influenced the course of galactic history, and of course, you wouldn't personally want to find yourself on the business end of a lightsaber, but Jedi alone cannot fight a war.

the jedi were built up to be nearly unstoppable but in the end they turned out to be a huge disapointment.

Anakin: You're a Jedi Knight, aren't you?
Qui-gon: What makes you think that?
Anakin: I saw your laser sword. Only Jedi carry that kind of weapon.
Qui-gon: Perhaps I killed a Jedi and took it from him.
Anakin: I don't think so. No one can kill a Jedi.
Qui-gon: I wish that were so.

Throughout the films, Jedi are shown dying, making bad decisions that result in horrible consequences, and generally acting human and fallible.

epsecially when the one jedi was blasted with ease by jango, a common bounty hunter.

Well, I wouldn't call Jango Fett a "common" bounty hunter. He, and later his clone-son Boba, is the best. It's not impossible to defeat/kill a Jedi in combat. You just generally need either overwhelming superiority in numbers or specialization in killing. Besides, I was under the impression that Trebor was too narrowly focused on the threat that was Dooku.

So, the list of Jedi-killers:

1. Overwhelming superiority in numbers or force -
   Armies, Death Stars, and so forth. The ending of AOTC definitely falls under this category.
2. Highly specialized and honed combat skills -
   Bounty hunters and assassins galore! The Fetts, Aurra Sing... Well, the latter also falls under the next category.
3. Other Force users -
   Duh. The whole Jedi-Sith perennial war comes to mind.
   
   Yoda: The next Jedi-Sith conflict? When shall it be, hmm?
   Palpidious: I could do next decade. That Skywalker brat is taking me an eternity to turn.



4. The Jedi himself -
   Really, sometimes it's more a case of the Jedi getting himself killed rather than anything or anyone killing him. Inexperience, overconfidence, distraction, confusion, arrogance, out-of-control emotional angst - you name it, Jedi have died because of it.

sideswipe1984
Now, one could argue that Dooku was THAT much more powerful than Maul, but to me, as an observer, it looked like Kenobi had lost more than a step.

It was the same for me. Obi-wan's duel with Dooku was rather unimpressive to me the first couple of times I watched it. Of course, I was going through a phase then where I didn't have much taste for anything SW. Happily, when I got back into SW, this thread changed my view on the duel. I highly recommend the entire thread as an interesting, if sometimes a tad obscure and technical, read, but a relevant post by ophelia is on the first page, about halfway down. Here's a short excerpt:

ophelia
I love the fact that it's not enough for Obi-Wan to try and trick Dooku into making a tactical mistake. Dooku's Mr. Super-fencer and he's too smart for that. So Obi-Wan goes for that Sith weakness, too--he ticks Dooku off by making him feel less than all-powerful. I mean, Obi-Wan's the student of Dooku's student for pity's sake, and Dooku can't smack him down in three tries. Oooooh, that's annoying!

Enjoy!

 

OK...but look at how easy it was for jango to kill that one disgrace of a jedi. And, i find it difficult to believe the jedi never acted as soliders. the sith war for instance. my main point has been, logically, if these handful of jedi could keep the peace across a galactic republic(millions of worlds), with no help of an armed military, then they should have been able to quell a bunhc of droids on ONE planet. yet all of them were beaten by some mindless robots. why is palatine afraid of jedi???? how could they possibly stop him?

 

Excellent post, Yeade. Great TPM reference.

 

Remember, the Sith War was(I think) a thousand years ago, and a lot of peace was kept throughout the galaxy through negotiations instead of out-and-out war. One more thing: I do think they should have had Obi look a bit stronger in his duel with Dooku but remember that:
1.Obi's been held prisoner in a probably uncomfortable force field thingie for a while(he's probably not gotten much sleep).
2.He's had to face a giant green crab thingie without his lightsaber.
3.He then spent several minutes fighting with his lightsaber against an overwhelming amount of droids.
4.He's then been having a rough ride in one of those clone ships.

Meanwhile, Dooku's been
1.Talking with people.
2.Talking with people.
3.Talking with people.
4.Having a smooth ride on a hover bike.

Out of the two, which one do you think will be the more rested, fresh, energetic fighter. And don't forget, the dark side is growing stronger.
Personally, I think George has found a pretty good balance for how powerful to make the Jedi. I like that they're fallible. Besides, we still see them doing plenty of cool stuff and slicing through tons of droids.

 

When the Emperor tells Vader that Luke must not become a jedi knight, I got the impression that the Emperor was scared of jedi. I remember thinking that if Luke managed to become a jedi, he would easily defeat Vader and the Emperor.

There's a number of things wrong with this. You had not one, but two exceptionally powerful Jedi out there: Obi-Wan and Yoda. If all it took to take out Palpatine was a Jedi, why didn't they themselves do it?
Palpatine fears something alright. And it's Luke. Something had to be special about Luke that if he had the skills of a Jedi, he'd be a major threat.
The catch is right there in ESB itself.
'Only a fully trained Jedi, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader, and his Emperor.'
But Yoda... aren't you a Jedi Master? Hmm...

 

grav1mage
OK...but look at how easy it was for jango to kill that one disgrace of a jedi.

Well, not every Jedi can be Yoda.

And, i find it difficult to believe the jedi never acted as soliders.

Jedimancer has it right, I think. Remember that Jedi are keepers of the peace first, warriors second. Violence is probably the last resort, with the exception of the Sith, who the Jedi recognize as a dark mirror to their order and, in some ways, a natural, fated enemy.

my main point has been, logically, if these handful of jedi could keep the peace across a galactic republic(millions of worlds), with no help of an armed military, then they should have been able to quell a bunhc of droids on ONE planet.

The Jedi likely were never completely without armed support. Recall that in TPM, Qui-gon and Obi-wan were dispatched by Valorum as ambassadors of the Republic to settle a regional conflict between the TF and the Naboo, both of whom had their own armed forces.

The TPM mission seems to be pretty typical of the work the PT Jedi did. The Republic itself never had a standing army before Palpatine officially created one in AOTC, but that doesn't mean the planetary governments weren't armed, that large corporate concerns don't stock weapons, and fringe elements have no access to both legal and illegal firepower.

If you live in the US, grav1mage, it's like being armed at the national, state, local, and household/individual levels. The Jedi are playing the role of a national diplomatic corps that also happens to have law enforcement training.

Jedimancer
One more thing: I do think they should have had Obi look a bit stronger in his duel with Dooku but remember that:
1.Obi's been held prisoner in a probably uncomfortable force field thingie for a while(he's probably not gotten much sleep).
2.He's had to face a giant green crab thingie without his lightsaber. [snip]

Meanwhile, Dooku's been
1.Talking with people. [snip]

Out of the two, which one do you think will be the more rested, fresh, energetic fighter.

I never considered that. Guess I've always automatically assumed Obi-wan would have an eternal youthful springiness. And the "giant green crab thingie"?

That_Wascally_Droid:

After I finally watched the OT in proper order, I admit I was quite angry with Obi-wan and Yoda. Obi-wan had his "certain point of view," Yoda didn't seem all that willing to confirm that Vader was Luke's father, and in general, I felt like Luke had been purposely lied to, used, and misled.

Frankly, I have no clue what Obi-wan and Yoda wanted Luke to do. I don't think the two could have faced Palpatine and Vader themselves because while both had great legacies as Jedi, and the spirit may have been willing, the body probably wasn't. What makes me want to beat Obi-wan and Yoda's heads together is that they seemed perfectly fine with speed-training Luke and sending him off to face his father and the Emperor with no real directive and certainly no information about Vader's relationship to him.

It definitely seems like the upstanding morals of these two Jedi have become somewhat bent during their respective exiles. Qui-gon was fond of mind tricking to get what he wanted and was a bit sneaky, but nothing as questionable as setting a son on his unknown father.

Until ROTS comes out, Obi-wan and Yoda's plans might be hard to work out. Did they expect Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor? Did they hope having a son would bring Anakin to the surface, and that Anakin and Luke would take care of Palpatine? Or worse, were they hoping Luke's death at Palpatine's hands would goad Anakin/Vader on to kill his master and likely die in the process? Then what? Train Leia? A morality play indeed.

It's almost like Obi-wan and Yoda decided to train Luke, then essentially throw Palpatine, Vader, and Luke together, wait, and see what happens. Do Obi-wan and Yoda know something we don't?

 

and how exactly would Jedi Master Yoda get within a parsec of the Emperor? The only reason Luke was there was because he could possibly be turned...Palps wouldnt waste time with Yoda who he knew would never turn....

 

Ok, I will try to impart a small amount of wisdom
into this arguement:

As for OB1's skills degrading,
in TPM:
he ran from the battle droid on that speeder
thing until QGJ easily dispatched it for him.

got his faced kicked in by DM and fell like
three stories.

used a silly trick to barely escape DM, and his
own death

in AOTC:
constantly trying to keep Anakin from letting
his emotions boil over.

fought Jango to a draw, during which, 007 Fett
had to use EVERY trick in his inventory,
INCLUDING his kid firing the Slave 1's lasers.

led clonetroopers into battle.

DEFLECTED/ABSORBED DOOKU'S FREAKING FORCE LIGHTNING!!!!

got his leg skewered, AND had another drink in a bar,
OB1=Alcoholic

I'm sure he will be sucking his thumb by the next movie



As far as the Emperor and his fear of Luke, I've
always felt that he knew that Anakin's offspring
could be the undoing of Anakin, and lead Anakin/DV
away from the Dark Side, and THAT, not Luke's feeble powers,
were a very serious threat to the Emperor.

The problem is, with absolute power, comes arrogance, so the emperor believed that there was no way any of
this could happen.

Yoda and Obi Wan also beleived this, hence the mention
of there being "another" when Obi Wan states
"that boy is our last hope". Yoda knew that Leia
could turn DV just as well as Luke. It was the emotional
connection to DV that was the real danger. Sure, Yoda and Obi Wan lied to Luke a lot,
but what could
they really do.

"Hey kid, welcome off the farm. Here, take this.
It's the lightsaber your pops used before he became
as Mass Murdering jerk. Oh, and that girl you've had
all sorts of impure thoughts about, you know, that girl in the message,
that is your twin sister. Yummy huh."

 

EMPEROR_WINDU
and how exactly would Jedi Master Yoda get within a parsec of the Emperor?

Oh, yeah. There's that, too. I feel stupid. Too much EU "let me shield my presence" influence.

JediMasterEllic_Kier
As for OB1's skills degrading, in TPM:
he ran from the battle droid on that speeder thing until QGJ easily dispatched it for him.

Well, apparently, in a cut scene, Obi-wan's lightsaber shorted out after he fell from the TF transport into a lake.

got his faced kicked in by DM and fell like three stories.

And that wasn't the only time he got kicked in the face by Maul either. Maybe his incipient concussion is the explanation for the "silly trick" he pulls later. Ah, well. Obi-wan's only a Padawan, and we all know Padawans are walking trouble.

It was the emotional connection to DV that was the real danger. Sure, Yoda and Obi Wan lied to Luke a lot, but what could they really do.

My issue with this is how, exactly, Obi-wan and Yoda wanted Luke to have an emotional connection with Vader when he didn't even know they had any type of connection at all beyond that of two enemies. Unless you're saying the Jedi were hoping Vader would be weakened because he knew, and this would allow Luke to kill him or otherwise incapacitate him. I agree Obi-wan couldn't tell Luke the truth at first--there was a chance Luke, who'd dreamed of a father, would go out and actively seek Vader--but Yoda didn't even want to confirm what Luke already knew in ROTJ. Seems like the two wanted to keep Luke ignorant. The better the pawn. Still, I hope someone else has an explanation that casts Obi-wan and Yoda in a kinder light.

 

It's almost like Obi-wan and Yoda decided to train Luke, then essentially throw Palpatine, Vader, and Luke together, wait, and see what happens. Do Obi-wan and Yoda know something we don't?

Since desperate times call for desperate measures, perhaps they were recalling a lesson from 1000 years back when the Jedi managed to take advantage of the Sith's infighting and destroy them?

Yoda and Obi-Wan want to train Luke not to be a tremendous saber duelist, but to know how to avoid the darkside at all costs. Then they throw this young, talented Force user at Vader and the Emperor. Immediately, Vader and the Emperor start plotting each other's demise, and Luke's recruitement. Both are confident that Luke could be turned. This distraction ultimately proves fatal - the Sith destroy each other. And Obi-Wan and Yoda's training pays off - Luke does NOT turn, which was crucial in their sending him off to the lion's den.

Now that we know how easily the Sith wiped out the jedi, it doesn't seem so mystical.

Well, in the OT, the powerful, galaxy-ruling Sith were wiped out in twenty-odd years too! The lesson for both sides, is to be ever-vigilant of the enemy and not to become too arrogant and complacent!

 

Seems like the two wanted to keep Luke ignorant. The better the pawn. Still, I hope someone else has an explanation that casts Obi-wan and Yoda in a kinder light.

I definitely agree with forever_jedi in that part of Yoda/Obi-Wan's hope was that the Sith would destroy each other. But I've also always believed that the reason the truth was kept from Luke for so long, and this goes back to my belief that they wanted Luke to turn Vader back, not to kill him, was because Vader had to know that Luke's belief in his goodness was genuine. The less Obi-Wan and Yoda interfered with this, the less chance that Vader would think Luke had been sent to do what they wanted. Vader had to truly know that it was Luke and Luke alone who believed in him. And he believed blindly in Vader's goodness. I doubt anyone since Padme felt that way about him. So I think it was that reminder of his old life and all that was important to him, and the memory of what it was to love, that clinched it inside of him.

 

[snip]and this goes back to my belief that they wanted Luke to turn Vader back, not to kill him, was because Vader had to know that Luke's belief in his goodness was genuine. The less Obi-Wan and Yoda interfered with this, [snip]

"I can't kill my own father!" "Then the Emperor has already won."

"There is still good in him. "He's more machine than man now, twisted and evil."

I don't see how your explanation jibes with those exchanges.

 

"I can't kill my own father!" "Then the Emperor has already won."

"There is still good in him. "He's more machine than man now, twisted and evil."

I don't see how your explanation jibes with those exchanges.

Well this is a different topic altogether but... again, it's Luke who can't kill his own father and who knows there's still good in him. He is obviously not letting himself be coerced into feeling anything that Ben wants him to-- which is how Vader could see it.

And I assume you're referring to me saying they don't want Luke to kill Vader... and the explaination for that is probably too long for here, but basically...

- I don't think we should discount the prophecy altogether. You think Obi-Wan and Yoda did just because Anakin turned? Killing Anakin is not fulfilling the prophecy.
- Luke had to make the decision on his own, he had to face Vader and fight the dark side before he could become a Jedi himself. It's a test, in a way... he must face his father (and all the evil he's been told about) and deal with that in the way he feels is best. Listening to his instincts, the Force, even if other people are telling him differently.
- Yoda says "confront" several times, never "kill". If you recall it's Luke who assumes he means kill.
- That being said, Yoda and Obi-Wan have to prepare Luke for the possibility that he may have to battle with Vader. If it comes down to it and Luke is too weak to kill Vader, after exhausting all other options, then the Emperor has won. It's a last resort, but if it's gotta be done, then it's gotta be done. But at the same time, Obi-Wan must know that it would be extremely difficult for Luke to defeat Vader, the Chosen One with a couple dozen years of Force training, in battle. The only way Luke can possibly get to him is through his trump card, the reason it has to be Luke or Leia (not Obi-Wan or Yoda), because they are Anakin's children. That's the only way to truly get to him now. He can't be "defeated" any other way, and fulfill the prophecy.

 

forever_jedi, RebelScum77: Thank you both for providing a few new theories. I just want you guys to know I really appreciate your contributions before I start addressing some of my concerns.

forever_jedi
Yoda and Obi-Wan want to train Luke not to be a tremendous saber duelist, but to know how to avoid the darkside at all costs. Then they throw this young, talented Force user at Vader and the Emperor. [snip] This distraction ultimately proves fatal - the Sith destroy each other. And Obi-Wan and Yoda's training pays off - Luke does NOT turn, which was crucial in their sending him off to the lion's den.

I can definitely see that happening! It just seems that this scenario is one chance in a couple of not-as-good possibilities. If one person of the Palpatine-Vader-Luke power triangle in ROTJ had chosen differently, Obi-wan and Yoda might've ended up with either the same Sith problem as before and no Luke or a different Sith problem. Then again, I think maybe you're right - Obi-wan and Yoda were desperate and willing to take high stakes gambles. First, the two Jedi would try their best option, Luke. If that doesn't work out, there is an alternative potential Jedi who still maintains a father-child relationship with Vader (a crucial unbalancing element in the Palpatine-Vader dynamic), and that is Leia. As a corollary to your theory, I would say that if Luke "successfully" resists the dark side but dies in the process, Obi-wan and Yoda could still presumably train Leia to carry on the Jedi traditions.

...that's pretty cold though.

RebelScum77
I definitely agree with forever_jedi in that part of Yoda/Obi-Wan's hope was that the Sith would destroy each other. But I've also always believed that the reason the truth was kept from Luke for so long, and this goes back to my belief that they wanted Luke to turn Vader back, not to kill him, was because Vader had to know that Luke's belief in his goodness was genuine. [snip] And he believed blindly in Vader's goodness. [snip]

Your reasoning of Anakin/Vader's redemption is excellent, IMHO. I must say, however, that Luke's cause to bring back the good man his father once was always struck me as... well, a bit crazy. It seemed to me that Obi-wan, Yoda, and Vader all did their best to convince Luke of Vader's utter, irrevocably evil nature. In addition to the two exchanges a2dmusic posted (I'm too slow!), Obi-wan at first led Luke to believe Vader had betrayed and murdered his idol of a father. Yoda never stated anything one way or another, just said it was "unfortunate" Luke knew and now had this extra burden in his coming confrontation. Vader, of course, did nothing to endear himself.

To list a few things, in no particular order: he shot down Luke's best friend from Tatooine, cut down mentor Obi-wan (and what's with this anyways?), tortured Leia, chased Luke's friends around the galaxy, captured them, (apparently) tortured them, then froze big brother Han into a carbonite coffee table and handed him over to a bounty hunter who sold him to Jabba as artwork. And to Luke personally: cut off Luke's hand, then revealed himself as Luke's father in what was probably the worst case of bad paternal timing ever. For someone as empathic as Luke, harm to his friends and other close relations is just as cutting as hurting him directly, and the trauma of having to pick between going with his until-then hated enemy into Force knows what and the near-suicide of jumping off that gantry can't be underestimated.

After all this, Luke still wants to save his father. That really doesn't seem like a sane idea to me. Oh, I think it's a testament to Luke's incredibly good nature that he can, if not forget, find it in his heart to forgive transgressions as painful and personal as the ones he suffered... but would Obi-wan and Yoda depend on this? Maybe I shouldn't be calling Luke's decision sane or insane. What I mean is that I doubt anyone but Luke would've res

 

Yeade...you're absolutely right, Luke is a bit crazy for believing so whole-heartedly in Vader after all he's done. I sort of chalk that up, not only to his good nature, but to the Force. I think that without him realizing it, the Force was giving him a huge push. It was allowing him to be able to see the good in Vader the way no one else could. I mean, for all that Vader did to Luke, he did far more to Obi-Wan and Yoda. Luke knew there was good in there, something had to be telling him so... it had to be the Force speaking to him and no one else. I think Obi-Wan was alternately testing him and the Force, and also holding out hope that maybe Anakin could come back. I think he had been sitting on that hope for 20 years.

Depend on it for all those years, perhaps not, but hope. Obi-Wan knows first hand how important Anakin's family was to him, it was worth more that the Jedi. So Luke is their best shot for stopping Vader, though they must wait many years to test this theory out. Obi-Wan did what he could, by putting Luke in a family that could instill the notion of love in him, because the only thing that could bring Vader down (and maybe Anakin back) was love. Sounds a bit crazy, but it makes perfect sense.

 

Darn it! I'm just too slow!

RebelScum77
again, it's Luke who can't kill his own father and who knows there's still good in him. He is obviously not letting himself be coerced into feeling anything that Ben wants him to-- which is how Vader could see it.

Yes, that's the way I see it, too. It just seems like a bit of stretch to me to think Obi-wan and Yoda planned this.

I don't think we should discount the prophecy altogether. You think Obi-Wan and Yoda did just because Anakin turned? Killing Anakin is not fulfilling the prophecy.

The whole Chosen One prophecy is murky as hell. Remembering that the SW characters have no George Lucas to tell them in no uncertain terms that Anakin is the Chosen One, is it so unbelievable to think Obi-wan and Yoda might have reassessed Anakin being the Chosen One after Anakin not only turned but became a Sith apprentice, right-hand man of the new Emperor, and aided in hunting down his former Jedi comrades?

It's a test, in a way... he [Luke] must face his father (and all the evil he's been told about) and deal with that in the way he feels is best. Listening to his instincts, the Force, even if other people are telling him differently.

I agree. Personally, I can't think of any other explanation for Luke's stubborn following of his to-all-other-appearances suicidal and insane cause. Like I said in my previous post, Luke's always struck me as very empathic. After the events of ESB, the poor guy must have had a lot of soul-searching to do, and I like to think it was during this time that Luke's natural empathy and the Force led him to believe, correctly, that his father still had a spark of good in him.

Yoda says "confront" several times, never "kill". If you recall it's Luke who assumes he means kill.

And no one, neither Obi-wan nor Yoda, corrects his assumption. Once again, it seems rather farfetched to me that Obi-wan and Yoda would rely so completely on Luke being able to somehow, between his leaving Dagobah and his surrender on Endor, discern their real intentions through all the comments and/or assumptions to the contrary.

The only way Luke can possibly get to him is through his trump card, the reason it has to be Luke or Leia (not Obi-Wan or Yoda), because they are Anakin's children. That's the only way to truly get to him now.

It's also possible that Obi-wan and Yoda thought the children of the Chosen One were the only Force sensitives with enough power and ability to confront Anakin/Vader (and do whatever). Hell, maybe Obi-wan and Yoda thought Luke was the Chosen One. Even with Lucas telling us, repeatedly, that Anakin is the Chosen One, fans still argue this.

Okay, at this point, I must admit a personal bias. I dearly love Luke, and I think what he did in ROTJ was unspeakably brave. I do think it's a better story if Obi-wan and Yoda hadn't been planning on Vader's redemption since ROTS. It highlights Luke's struggles and, moreover, Anakin's return is all the more powerful as no one else believed it possible except for his son, whose faith and devotion and love opened Anakin's eyes and led him to make this moving, difficult, self-sacrificial choice. And that's the way I like to see it. Of course, this may all change with ROTS... Ah, well. C'est la vie. <shrug>

 

Stop replying so quickly, RebelScum77! I can't type that fast!

RebelScum77
I think Obi-Wan was alternately testing him and the Force, and also holding out hope that maybe Anakin could come back. I think he had been sitting on that hope for 20 years. [snip] Obi-Wan did what he could, by putting Luke in a family that could instill the notion of love in him, because the only thing that could bring Vader down (and maybe Anakin back) was love.

Oh.

You know, I think we both just had to clarify what we thought. I don't much care for the idea that Obi-wan and Yoda planned for Luke to redeem Anakin the way he did, but I adore the idea that Obi-wan, as Anakin's former mentor/father/brother, hoped that Anakin could be saved. That somewhere in his heart, Ben Kenobi never could give up on Anakin, though Vader's actions over the two decades or so separating ROTS and ANH whittled his hope down to almost nothing. That's just so, so... angsty and sad!

As for Luke, Obi-wan, er, maybe wanted to prepare Luke for the possibility that he may have to kill Vader... After all, he'd seen and lived through too much of Vader's handiwork, and I like to think he cared for and bonded with Luke enough during the time they had together that he didn't want to see Luke throw his life away unnecessarily... but, oh, he still hoped, just a bit, that somehow it wouldn't come to that. I like this theory a lot better than cold, calculating Obi-wan, willing to sacrifice Anakin's children to rid the galaxy of Palpatine and Vader's evil one way or another. Now it's Obi-wan who must plot and plan to save the galaxy, but is constantly hurt by the decisions and assumptions he must make about his two Skywalker students, trying to brace for the worst yet building a foundation for the fulfillment of his deepest hopes.

Everyone in these films needs a hug! (Except Palpatine. He needs a kick. Preferably out of the Saga entirely and far, far away from the Skywalker family and friends. And, I suppose, it wouldn't be too nice to hug those other Sith apprentices and evil henchmen either. Ew, and Jabba... Okay, I think I need to stop...)


edit: added "I like this theory..." and made minor changes in wording