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Different outlook on the Jedi from OT - PT

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by JediScott, Sep 23, 2004.

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  1. Yeade

    Yeade Jedi Grand Master star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2003
    Tester
    The other Jedi are in plenty of shots, but in some of those moments they look like people in costume who know they are just part of the background. [snip] That visual issue may have something to do with the feeling that the Jedi just don't kick butt like they used to the good old future.

    While following Personality characteristics in lightsaber styles, I watched the AOTC arena sequence in slow-mo. The Jedi in the background are sometimes kicking at or hacking away at nothing. In addition, I remember a few scenes where Jedi are running with hands over head from explosions and showers of sand. Neither of these two show particularly cool, strong, and capable Jedi.

    On the other hand, there are Padawans fighting in the arena (Obi-wan checks for life in one while Dooku is making his little speech before the arrival of the clones), Jedi are generally more used to working in Master-Padawan pairs as opposed to a group of hundreds, and the Jedi Order hasn't had to take part in large ground actions against a numerous, trained, and well-armed foe in thousands of years. Thus, there are inexperienced Jedi combatants, and the Jedi as a whole, after a bloody brilliant infiltration of the arena, lack cohesive coordination and strategy. I think maybe the droid army - and the Clone Wars in general - caught the Jedi by surprise.

    And, of course, this is likely another of those things that is only picked up by fans. Casual viewers could probably just see, and be awed by, the firestorm in the arena. How can anyone survive with that many laserbolts flying around?! We devoted fans expect more of both Lucas and the Jedi.
     
  2. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 23, 2000
    "I completely don't buy the "kill Vader" way of thinking, it's just not right for the Jedi, or a powerful enough message."

    If Yoda/Obi-wan didn't want Luke to kill Vader, then why give him a lightsaber, why train him in the Jedi arts, and why lie to him about his father? I don't believe for a second that either Obi-wan nor Yoda would do all of this and then tell Luke not to use his powers against Vader and the Emperor because that's setting him up to be a sitting duck but that is not how a Jedi is brought up. A Jedi is suppose to be the "defenders of peace and justice in the galaxy" and for Luke to live up to that reputation, he has to eliminate the threat to the galaxy and the 2 biggest threats are Vader and the Emperor.

    Obi-wan and Yoda have never left any indication in any of the films that they want Luke to save Vader.
     
  3. Jedimancer

    Jedimancer Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Jun 16, 2004
    Yeah, I think that Obi and Yoda had lost faith in Anakin as the Chosen One(would explain why they never mentioned him) and just wanted Luke to take him and the Emperor down, if he could.
     
  4. Ididitall4thewookie

    Ididitall4thewookie Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jun 29, 2004
    They give him a lightsaber and teach him the Jedi arts because they are training him to be a Jedi. As I said in an earlier post, they are trying to kill two birds with one stone - redeeming Anakin and fulfilling the prophecy, and rebuilding the Jedi order ("pass on what you have learned!").

    They lie to him about his father because he was not ready to know. Imagine the first thing someone telling you about your father is that he is Hitler? Pretty traumatizing. They needed Luke to believe in Anakin before he bought into Darth Vader.
     
  5. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 23, 2000
    What would happen if Luke defeats Vader and is told afterwards by Yoda/Obi-wan that Vader is his father? Luke will explode like his father did and will end up becoming the next Darth Vader and I don't think Yoda and Obi-wan would want that to happen. A Jedi isn't suppose to just stand around doing nothing while waiting for their opponent to be an emotional wreck and surrender because he isn't gonna do that and both Yoda and Obi-wan are quite certain that Vader will never be redeemed. They can't have Luke believe in Anakin if they make both Anakin and Vader out to be 2 different people because they're not, they're the same person which is why Luke didn't want to face Vader again.
     
  6. RebelScum77

    RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 3, 2003
    The Jedi are not supposed to be warriors, they're not supposed to be killers. That's what you're supposed to understand with this whole Clone Wars thing. The Jedi act aganist their true nature ("Defenders of Peace and Justice") and it brings their eventual downfall. It doesn't make any sense for Yoda/Obi-Wan to train Luke to kill when that is what destroyed them in the first place. Obi-Wan had 20 years in the desert to realize this. Yes he teaches Luke the Jedi ways, including using a lightsaber, but "only for defence, never attack." Attacking leads to the Dark Side. Obi-Wan is trying to restart the Order, not kill Vader.

    Anyone can be pissed off enough to kill, but only Jedi can achieve such a heightened sense of compassion. It had to be Luke. Yoda could have sent anyone to try and kill Vader, but only Luke had the potential ability to get close to Vader... and why is that? Because Luke is directly connected to Anakin. He would make Vader face a part of his life he thought he lost. Everything about the upbringing chosen for Luke supports this.

    Both Obi-Wan and Yoda never explicity say "kill" only "confront". It's Luke who assumes that. That's a huge sign, they could have easily said "kill", but let Luke make his own decisions. That's part of being a Jedi, trusting your instincts, listening to the Force. The Force was obviously telling Luke that Anakin was still there. And I think that was Obi-Wan's plan- to test Luke's "faith". He needed to be sure that Luke could listen to the Force, when everything else was telling him otherwise. That's what a Jedi does. Vader had to know that Luke believed in him of his own accord- that Obi-Wan wasn't telling him what to think. Or else there's no way Anakin's son would affect that sort of loyalty in him.

    But do I think Obi-Wan was preparing Luke for the possibility of defending himself to the death? Of course. It would be foolish not to give Luke the best saber training possible.
     
  7. Ididitall4thewookie

    Ididitall4thewookie Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jun 29, 2004
    What would happen if Luke defeats Vader and is told afterwards by Yoda/Obi-wan that Vader is his father? Luke will explode like his father did and will end up becoming the next Darth Vader and I don't think Yoda and Obi-wan would want that to happen. A Jedi isn't suppose to just stand around doing nothing while waiting for their opponent to be an emotional wreck and surrender because he isn't gonna do that and both Yoda and Obi-wan are quite certain that Vader will never be redeemed. They can't have Luke believe in Anakin if they make both Anakin and Vader out to be 2 different people because they're not, they're the same person which is why Luke didn't want to face Vader again.

    OB1 and Yoda I believe had every intention of telling Luke that DV and Anakin are the same person, its just that DV beat them to it, and in Yoda's eyes it was unfortunate ("things are worse now"), because it was too soon. They wanted Luke to be done training before they told him this so that his emotional keel would be even and he could handle it without freaking out and wanting to kill Vader.

    They needed to Luke to recognize that Anakin was once a good man, and in their own way, thats exactly what they do. If Luke had never believed this, he never would have looked for the goodness in his father, he never would have seen it, and he never would have intentionally drawn it out of DV. Hence, no redemption of Anakin.

    Imagine if when Luke asked OB1 about his father OB1 said, "your father was technically once a Jedi, but now he is Darth Vader, you know, that guy who is the meanest dude in the galaxy who kills everybody." Luke may have been 1. hardened to Anakin Skywalker because he is the evilest (or second evilest) guy in the galaxy, and only planned on killing him, or 2. afraid to train for fear of ending up just like his father. They needed Luke to believe in Anakin in order to believe in himself.
     
  8. Atticus

    Atticus Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 31, 2002
    ^^^ Well said.

    But then came AOTC. Now whether by design ("Our ability to use the force has diminished") or not, the Jedi definitely seem significantly less powerful than they did on TPM. ESPECIALLY Obi-Wan. As a Padawan he seemed a much more effective combatant than he was as a full-fledged Knight with 10 more years experience under his belt. This is my major beef with AOTC (which I otherwise love) - Obi-Wan's power seems ridiculously reduced from the previous movie. As for the generic, joe six-pack Jedi, well, they are pathetic

    In AOTC, Obi-Wan was a denfensive fighter unlike TPM where he was an offensive fighter. He decided to change his fighting style after he witnessed the death of Qui-Gon. He felt that Qui-Gon's death could have been avoided if he was on the defensive more.
     
  9. grav1mage

    grav1mage Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 30, 2004
    "Obi-Wan had 20 years in the desert to realize this. Yes he teaches Luke the Jedi ways, including using a lightsaber, but "only for defence, never attack." "

    Even if you accept that the jedi dont kill, which we know to be false, they should be powerful enough to defend themselves against a stupid bounty hunter. The Jedi obviously have a reputation as people to be FEARED. Look at how the nemodians reacted when obi-wan and qui-gon arrived in TPM. they have a reputation that was perpetuated in the OT and carried on in the TPM. now in the AoTC they are weaklings, whose build-up was nothing but a let down. dont tell me that lucas didnt hype that battle up. we were ALL waiting for it. at last an army of jedi. and what did we see, a pathetic group of sallys get their asses handed to them by a bounty hunter and an army of mindless droids.
     
  10. G-Bright-Jedi

    G-Bright-Jedi Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Oct 30, 2004
    Actually the Jedi one the battle of Genesis
     
  11. Ogmios22188

    Ogmios22188 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 12, 2004
    They would've lost had it not been for the Clones. And they still suffered heavy losses regardless.
     
  12. NeoBaggins

    NeoBaggins Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 28, 2003
    Yes. The implications of the Jedi in thier prime era was definitely a strong one. You heard Lucas talk about it and you see the picture painted by Obiwan as he discribes them in ANH. You think, wow, they were noble and kickass warriors.

    TPM expanded the Jedi to an almost superhero like status with the presentation of what they could do. But by AOTC end, the Jedi are a group to feel sorry for. Not only did theier abilities stop at force-pushing and super-jumps, but the free for all Jedi arena battle was fought not by Jedi.. But a skilless bunch of extras with lightsabers. I thought, this is it?? The Jedi finally in action. I swear the numbers looked like two football teams fighting in an arena about the size of a football field. Thats small, yo. Each individual droid/Jedi fight being fought a Titanic's length between the next droid'jedi fight. We get some familiar faces from the Council but for the mocst part the fight is non-epic, impersonal, and not living up to the "hype". Thank god for 3po's antics and Mace Windu on the scene.

    They even looked weak. One guy who looks like hed never began training is picked off easily by a bounty hunter. Who hires BOUNTY HUNTERS! Then we get a fish-man with dreadlocks who struggled so hard to topple a droid that he smiled. An indication that THIS task was something very new to him performing. Still, it was great to see Obiwan against that cute Ackley and Mace do away with Jango. Seeing Mace fight together back to back with 3po's classic AND over-the-top comedy is pure gold. But Jedi just didnt seem important or believable outside of the main characters.
     
  13. Ididitall4thewookie

    Ididitall4thewookie Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jun 29, 2004
    Agreed. I wanted to see some mysterious, samuraiesque warriors who were bad to the bone (I think something cool visually could have been most of the Jedi still wearing their hoods while fighting, giving them a mysterious, intimidating look).

    Its ok to me that a lot of Jedi get taken out, but it should have been more monumental if you will, like seeing one Jedi get taken down by LOTS of droids, while taking most of them down with him/her. Little snippets like that - Jedi deflecting tons of blaster bolts in a whirlwind and simply being taxed to the limit. The Jedi are supposed to be pretty cool, werent they? These werent.
     
  14. openmind

    openmind Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jan 23, 2003
    fought not by Jedi.. But a skilless bunch of extras with lightsabers.

    If one "realizes" that the guys are extras, so much for the believability factor. :p

    Seriously though, the Jedi were hugely outnumbered. It was only the older more experienced ones who felt they could handle it (and most of those survived). o_O
     
  15. grav1mage

    grav1mage Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 30, 2004
    I agree that their deaths should have been more monumental. especially the jedi who was shot down by jango who did even have to move to kill him. in my opinion this weakens the OT as now it isnt as big of a deal if luke becomes a jedi anymore. the republic should fear boba fett more than the empire should fear luke...given the logic of AoTC.
     
  16. NeoBaggins

    NeoBaggins Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 28, 2003
    And the award for most creative camoflauge OT bash goes to....
     
  17. grav1mage

    grav1mage Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Mar 30, 2004
    there is no question the OT has been lowered after the release of the PT. though i would never bash it...it is no longer the monumental achievement it once was.

    Now you can argue with me all you want, but at least argue with some logical points and not just say I am bashing. A lot of people on this webpage are afraid to question ANYTHING in Star Wars. Lucas is GOD to them. fine. I say it is healthy to question. look at all of us...we're here cus we want to discuss the movies, if we all agreed with every thing that happened how interesting would that be? how can u make a continuiation of movies that happened decades ago w/o thinking people would not find some things unappealing? i grew up with these movies, i dont know about any of you. i had my own preconceptions about things. now they werent the same as lucas's, and ok. but of course i like mine better(as i think the majourity of people do..which is why star wars is no longer the phenomenon is was...dont even try to say it is...back in the day it ruled everything, now no one except us fans care). a long time ago everyone knew vader was lukes father...who can tell us who jar jar is? many...but not AS many people. anyway....

    I say the PT changed the OT in many ways. We see Luke training to be a Jedi throughtout most of the films as if being a Jedi were something fearsome. something with power. something to be respected. We see the emperor and vader terrified of luke becoming a jedi. we see people afraid of them(afraid of vader and palps) because they can weild the force. we see the respect jedi have across the galaxy. or so we thought. now since the PT, we know the truth.... they are wimps.

    Tell me, after seeing AoTC, are you more afraid of jango fett or darth vader? i think jango would KILL him in a fight. i personally am more afraid of jango... and wow.... is that pathetic or what?
     
  18. MikeSolo

    MikeSolo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2002
    I remember watching ANH and ESB for the first time and hearing about the Jedi Knights.
    My reaction was that Luke could become this great powerful Jedi and not that the Jedi were like superior beings. In ANH Obi Wan explains that Vader helped hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. So I got the impression the Jedi weren't all powerful and could be beaten.
     
  19. NeoBaggins

    NeoBaggins Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 28, 2003
    grave1mage, its simple. You dont have to view the PT as a spoilage to the OT. The OT trilogy stands alone and doesnt need the new films to validate it. You can write them off all together. Nothing brings down the OT other than its changes to serve the OT DVDwise. And even then you can aquire untampered versions.

    Imagination. It is the outlet to all thought. The prequels are no more than E.U. Enjoy the films dawg. If that is your mission.
     
  20. b-wingmasterburnz

    b-wingmasterburnz Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 27, 2004
    I disagree. I, II, and III are just as much Star Wars as the other movies. They were always meant to be regarded together, and they build upon each other. The old concept of trilogies should be abandoned, and the Star Wars saga should be accepted in its entirety.
     
  21. DS_61_514

    DS_61_514 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Sep 22, 2004
    there is no question the OT has been lowered after the release of the PT. though i would never bash it...it is no longer the monumental achievement it once was.

    Wait, are you talking about the OT where an elite stormtrooper couldn't hit the big 3 so save their life?

    Or the one where the "best bush pilot in the Outer Rim" crashes not once, but TWICE!

    Note that all this stuff occurred before the PT.

    Yea the Jedi extras looked ridiculous. Hell even Mace didn't look that good.

    But it's not even that greatest "badass force" disappointment that has happened in movies in the past 3 years. That would be the Nazgul (and yes they are a bunch of losers).

    In regards to the story, I think it's obvious that Lucas is try to justify his choreography and actor's swordfighting skills from the OT (If I remember correctly, neither Prowse nor Guiness were especially good or even good period).

    He says Obi-Wan is old. Well Dooku's old and he seems to be doing well.

    He says in the PT we see the Jedi in their prime. Yet in TPM we see an old Jedi, a Padawan and a Sith. No "Jedi in their prime" there.

    Seriously, who could possibly believe that at the time of ANH Lucas would say "Yea let's have these old decrepit guys throw down." Heck no. Read the script and you'll see words like "vicious" and "powerful" being used. Unfortunately they didn't have the technology to put heads on stunt doubles back then.

     
  22. severian28

    severian28 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Thats ridiculous,Mage - nothing can diminish a movie thats a monumental achievement into something thats not a monumental achievement. If you think that the story of the PT has diminished the overall SW Saga then say that ( I personally dont feel that way ) but I think we can all agree on this one thing: That the Original Trilogy was a groundbreaking phenoma of pioneeing effects, editing and storytelling. That doesnt change because the advancements in effects and editing are infinetly more sophisticated now, because those advancements could never have happened without the OT and the story certainly doesnt diminish because in some peoples mind the prequels arent good. If if they werent, which by the way THEY ARE, it wouldnt change how good the OT story is. That " Lucas raped my childhood " crap has to stop. If anyone feels that way its because they lost their sense of wonder, not because Lucas lost the ability to make wonder. And Ill be the first to tell you that Lucas is a pompous ass but take nothing away from his ability to relay his magnus opus to us or to make it possible for nearly every great filmaker of the last twenty five years to show us theirs in ways that they couldnt possibly imagine in their wildest dreams when they were growing up.
     
  23. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2000
    "Rebelscum77-"The Jedi are not supposed to be warriors, they're not supposed to be killers."

    They're not supposed to be sitting ducks or sacrificial lambs either because they can't defend a galaxy if they surrender themselves to their enemies. For the good of the galaxy, the Jedi have to be warriors and they have to be ready to kill because if they didn't, then Obi-wan wouldn't have survived against Darth Maul nor would he and Yoda had survived past Episode 3 to train Luke as a Jedi.

    "The Jedi act against their nature ("Defenders of Peace and Justice") and it brings their eventual downfall."

    Actually, the Jedi never went against their nature and that is what led to their downfall. They have shunned their own emotions for generations, distanced themselves from the people they've sworn to defend, and they have grown too arrogant in their own abilities which allowed Palpidious to use those weaknesses to turn the entire galaxy against them by framing them for the Clone Wars' existence. Both Obi-wan and Yoda had to learn the hard way that having emotions doesn't lead a person to the Dark Side, it is how they respond to a situation that pushes them to make a choice that leads them to the Dark Side.

    "Obi-wan had 20 years in the desert to realise this. Yes he teaches Luke the Jedi ways, including using a lightsaber, but "only for defence, never attack." Attacking leads to the Dark Side. Obi-wan is trying to restart the Order, not kill Vader."

    The only way the Jedi Order can restart is for Vader to die along with the Emperor because they are a threat to the galaxy and the future of the Jedi Order. Also, like the old saying "the best defense is a straight offense" but it is how you lead an offensive strike that determines whether or not you end up an agent of evil. If its in an armed combat, no big deal but when you attack a defenseless person, then you fall to the Dark Side.

    "Anyone can be pissed off enough to kill, but only Jedi can achieve such a heightened sense of compassion. It had to be Luke. Yoda could have sent anyone to try and kill Vader, but only Luke had the potential ability to get close to Vader...and why is that? Because Luke is directly connected to Anakin."

    Just because Luke is connected to Anakin doesn't mean that Yoda would want Luke to show his own father any mercy. Obi-wan was also connected to Anakin and yet, he tosses him into a lava pool all because Ani tried to kill him and he would have done the same thing to Luke if he doesn't reject the Dark Side. Besides, there is noone else Yoda could send to kill Anakin/Vader because all of the Jedi are dead and Luke is the last one left. Finally, you don't have to be pissed off to kill someone because there is that thing called SELF-DEFENSE where you have to kill your opponent before they kill you, case in point: Obi-wan slicing Darth Maul in half.

    "He would make Vader face a part of his life he thought he lost. Everything about the upbringing chosen for Luke supports this."

    Luke could still make Vader reflect on his mistakes as a baby but neither Obi-wan nor Yoda wants to go for that approach. Why is that? Obi-wan himself said that "if Anakin had any offspring, they'd be a threat to the Emperor" and he could've taken advantage of that by presenting Anakin/Vader his infant son.

    "Both Obi-wan and Yoda never explicity say "kill" only "confront".

    It doesn't mean "don't kill" either.

    "It's Luke who assumes that. That's a huge sign, they could have easily said "kill", but let Luke make his own decisions."

    If Obi-wan and Yoda didn't want Vader dead, then they should have corrected Luke when he made that assumption by saying "We don't want you to kill your father, we want you to make him reflect on his own mistakes so he will reject the Dark Side thus killing the Emperor and fulfilling the prophecy" instead of saying "Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope" because that quote is a huge sign that they want Luke to kill Vader.

    "The Force was obviously telling Luke that Anakin was still there."

    How come the For
     
  24. grav1mage

    grav1mage Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 30, 2004
    Look, defend the PT all you want...but at least admit it is NOTHING like the OT. Thats all. They share no similarities. As for whether the PT can negatively affect the OT...it can. Think about what Tolkien once said: "I think the appeal of the Lord of the Rings is that there is always one tower, out in the distance you will never visit, but the book leaves it to your imagination to wonder what is inside of it"

    THAT was the appeal of the OT. We didnt know anything about Boba Fett. Thats what made him so damn cool. Who was that badass under that helmet?
    For me the coolest aspects of the OT were:

    1) where did palpatine learn the force? were did he learn the sith arts?

    2) who the hell was boba fett?

    3) what happened on ord mandell?

    4) what was the battle of Tanav?

    5) what were the clone wars?

    6) how did c-3po and r2 meet?

    etc.

    now that i now the answers to some of these questions, i no longer care. lucas sapped all the mystery out of the OT. some people are ok with that. fine. i am not. dont say its cus i have no imagination though. what kind of half-witted response is that? at least back it up? why is my unacceptance of the PT display a lack of imagination? on the contrary....people who like the PT have a lack of imagination, simply because they like everthing explained to them. personally, i like mystery....some the PT lacks.
     
  25. b-wingmasterburnz

    b-wingmasterburnz Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 27, 2004
    "i like mystery....some the PT lacks."

    Whoa, whoa, whoa.

    So does that mean that you figured out every angle of every aspect of the whole dealy with who Sidious was, where the clones came from, who erased the files, Dooku's 'confusion' about the clones, Sifo-Dias, etc, the FIRST time you saw AOTC? I find that hard to believe. There are mysterious aspects in the prequels, far more than the OT. And yes, eventually, with the release of more movies, all these mysteries get explained. That is to be expected. These movies would feel staggeringly incomplete if they left loose ends everywhere.
     
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