Digital Yoda in AOTC a bad move

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by 2PacLives, Feb 18, 2003.

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  1. 2PacLives Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2002
    I'm fully aware that there's a good chance of the so called "Archival Editions" being released in years to come, and I'm all for them. I believe several changes should be made in order to give the entire six film saga one distincitve visual appearance, rather than two varying looks that can ultimatley split the saga into two trilogies in the eyes of many. However, I do HOPE that the Yoda puppet in TESB and ROTJ is not digitally re-created to match that of AOTC and most likley Episode III.

    The truth his...Yoda should have never been CGI in the first place. Yes, it is capable of giving a better "acting" job, and yes it's movements and facial features are much more believable but there is something that the CGI Yoda lacks that the original Yoda had.....tangibility!!!

    The Yoda that taught Luke the ways of the force on Degobah was real...he was there, we saw him. The puppet's look and aura was believable enough for us to really believe that Yoda existed, that you could touch him. The CGI Yoda is too shiny most of the time, thus giving off a, shall I say, fake appearance? No matter how good it looked, I just didn't believe he was there, interacting with others.

    Despite my opinions, I do believe the Yoda from AOTC was great, but it has yet to give off a better performance than the original Yoda. The scene in which he explains the force to Luke and the one where he rises the X-Wing out from the swamp are both done so flawlessly that I don't see why they were so quick to do away with the puppet in the first place!! I know they wanted a duel with him, but couldn't they just insert the CGI for the duel and have the puppet for the rest of the film?

    With that said, don't you think it will be odd to watch all six films in order? We will see Yoda from Episode I (((which was awful in my opinion)) change into a CGI image, and then back to a puppet. Will this not damage the continuity of the saga in any fashion at all?? Maybe not to the extent of McGregor looking NOTHING like Guiness, but do you think it will hurt at all? At least in Episode III they can try to make McGregor look like Guiness, but are the viewers screwed when it comes to Yoda?

    ((By the way, if you've ever younger seen a Alec Guiness in Lawrence of Arabia, you would agree that he looked awesome!! He would have made a much better Kenobi for the prequels than McGregor (((lol))).))
  2. atomik Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    "I know they wanted a duel with him, but couldn't they just insert the CGI for the duel and have the puppet for the rest of the film?


    Yoda's own continuity in ep2 wouldn't fit because it would be clear to the viewer that they changed him within the film. But I see where you are going with this.

    Try posting this in the already existing Archival Edition topic or to talk about just Digital Yoda, try Attack of the Clones board which I'm sure has a topic on this ;)

  3. Jack-D-Ripper Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2002
    star 2
    I think that in all the ways that really matter, the digital Yoda is the equal of the puppet, and in all the ways that really matter, it is better than the puppet also. In no ways that really matter is it worse.

    I wouldn't want to see the original puppet in Empire and Jedi replaced, not just because I think the original puppet is very good, but because the CGI version is so true to the puppet in almost every way that the gain would not be worth the effort. If anything, they should replace the puppet in Episode I: THAT to me was the worst crime comitted in that movie: not only did that puppet not look AT ALL like Yoda, but it didn;t even look realistic like the original puppet did. What I like most about the digital Yoda is that he has all the charm and realism of the puppet, but is not limited like the puppet was: you don't get the feeling that the only reason they had him sitting on a log was so that they could hide all the cables and stuff used to operate him. I think the digital Yoda was very intelligently handled.

    -JDR.
  4. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    I'm all for keeping the ESB and ROTJ Yoda performances as they are, but take a look at the TPM puppet and try to tell me that the AOTC CG version doesn't make it look terrible.

    CG Yoda was a very good idea, don't let nostalgia cloud your judgement. Some things just could not be achieved by a puppet, not just in terms of the lightsabre fight but also for facial expressions. For example, Yoda's reaction to Palpatine and his expression in the 'Begun, this clone war has' line.
  5. Jack-D-Ripper Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2002
    star 2
    ^That is true: the digital Yoda's facial expressions are far more subtle than the puppet, and yet the best thing is they didn't go too far with it and kept it quite far within the bounds of what the puppet might have been able to do.

    Anyway, I think the thing that really counts is that Frank Oz sent a letter to the guys that created digital Yoda and told them he loved what they had done, and if anyone was going to complain if they'd gotten it wrong, it would have been Frank Oz.

    -JDR.
  6. Turkilma Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2001
    star 2
    TPM
    Replace puppet with CG-Yoda

    AOTC
    CG-Yoda - almost perfect

    EIII
    CG-Yoda will look even better

    TESB
    Keep the puppet !!!

    ROTJ
    Keep the puppet !!!
  7. Jack-D-Ripper Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2002
    star 2
    Another point I'd like to add is this:

    A lot of people complain that it is foolish to "update" an old movie because a film should stand as a testament to the time in which it was made. And nine times out of ten I'd agree with them. However, it is equally foolish to expect film makers to deliberately hold back on something in order to enforce visual (and story) continuity between something made 25 years ago and something made currently.

    -JDR.
  8. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    so, let's say, for example, Stanley Kubrick decided to make a prequel to Dr. Strangelove before he died, but since it was made more recently, the prequel is in color, and has none of the dicey rear-screen effects of the original.

    should the original be colorized and have digitally improved backgrounds added to match the more recent film? should he make subtle changes to action and dialogue to reflect modern political climates?

    should all the bond films be brought up to date?

    how about Indiana Jones?
  9. hansoloschinscar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 1
    I, for one like the contrast of CGI Yoda in AOTC and puppet Yoda in ESB and ROTJ. It fits in with Yoda's notion that the Jedi were becoming more and more arrogant. In ESB, we see an older, more contemplative Yoda. A Yoda haunted by the ghosts and mistakes of the past and is even unsure about the future. So of course he's going to be less animated (and sitting in a mud house for twenty years in complete isolation doesnt help either). BTW, a poster a while back said that he doesn't like the PT Yoda because he doesn't give out the wise advice as he did in the OT. Well in his defense, It's kind of hard to dispense fortune cookie-esque wisdom when there is a FREAKIN' WAR ON YOUR DOORSTEP!!! Ok, I'm done with my rant.
  10. NiktosRule Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2001
    star 4
    I don't think you have to worry about the puppet from the OT being replaced. I personally don't think Lucas will do an Archival Edition. I think the Special Editions are the final versions of the OT.
  11. Jack-D-Ripper Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2002
    star 2
    so, let's say, for example, Stanley Kubrick decided to make a prequel to Dr. Strangelove before he died, but since it was made more recently, the prequel is in color, and has none of the dicey rear-screen effects of the original.

    should the original be colorized and have digitally improved backgrounds added to match the more recent film? should he make subtle changes to action and dialogue to reflect modern political climates?

    should all the bond films be brought up to date?

    how about Indiana Jones?


    I agree 100%. However, it would be just as unreasonable to expect this hypothetical Dr. Strangelove prequel to have purposefully outdated effects and be in black and white and reflect outdated political attitudes just to keep it consistent with the original.

    Updating an old movie to bring it into line with a new one is a bad idea, and it is also a bad idea to limit a new movie just to keep it in line with an old one.

    Oh, and people worried about the original Yoda puppet being replaced: it's NOT going to happen. Cutting a character out of a background and replacing it is not a simple matter. They managed it with the Jabba scene in the ANH SE, but that was about half a minute, and it wasn't exactly convincing, was it? AND they were replacing a human-sized actor with a much larger creature, so they could simply superimpose it above the old footage.

    -JDR.
  12. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "Updating an old movie to bring it into line with a new one is a bad idea, and it is also a bad idea to limit a new movie just to keep it in line with an old one."

    good points.

    personally i would rather have a new movie limited to fit in with an older one than vice-versa, especially with a prequel. by limited i mean make it fit within the visual and aesthetic continuity of the old film.

    maybe im wierd, but i think the PT should have looked older than the OT, but i also think the star trek show Enterprise should have looked more like the 60's show, i think it would be much more visually interesting. as for star wars, remember it took place a long time ago in a galaxy far, far, away.

  13. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    Hey, that's pretty interesting, DrEvazan.
    I don't agree with you, but those are interesting points to make.

    Sorry, I know this is off-topic. Jack-D-Ripper and Turkila have good handles on the situation.
  14. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    Well see, this is one of the reasons I was originally against making the prequels. I knew the effects and picture were not going to match. However, now I am glad the prequels were made, b/c they have greatly surpassed my expectations. Plus, these rumors about the Archival Edition give me hope that they will match.
  15. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    >>>>>Cutting a character out of a background and replacing it with a cgi character is not a simple matter.<<<<

    Good point. I have a question. Would it be easy if that character was standing or sitting still the whole time? I could have sworn that I heard John Knoll say that is the tequnique they used for the alien younglings in AOTC.
  16. The_Anakin_Wannabe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2003
    star 4
    I personally thought the Digital Yoda looked excellent, however there wasn't much wrong with the ESB & ROTJ. TPM absolutely sucked, an didn't say that it was fans the fans fault we didn't like the puppet? Not that it was a piss poor pupptet? anyway. I wouldn't mind seeing digital Yoda put in TPM, but leave it out of ESB & ROTJ.

    I also think that the OT should, in some areas, be updated to continue with the feel of the PT. If Dr Strangelove was remade, the original shouldn't be colourised. This is because they aren't designed to be apart of a saga like SW is. I think we would agree, unless you let sentimentality cloud your vision, that if we saw B-Wing's fight in the Battle of Endor it would be an awesome addition. However, it would be a poor decision to see Digital Yoda in ESB, or even, ANH. From memory, in the original release of ANH, wasn't the lightsabers colourless? It subsequent releases, they were coloured in. That was an excellent deciesion. So, there is a certain line if they OT is enhanced, which, if not crossed, will enhance the saga.
  17. D_Lowe Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 6

    1. I believe it was a good move!

    2. I also believe this is more of a AOTC Forum topic. The MODS will decide that! :)
  18. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    This thread is allowed to stay because it's essentially comparing PT Yoda to OT Yoda and discussing the bridging between the films. Now lets have no more talk of it :)

    Personally, I don't feel that digital Yoda was a bad move. The majority of the shots of Yoda had him being very restricted in his movement and Coleman mentions many times on the DVD commentary that they modelled him on the way Oz used the puppet. So it's really not that far of the real thing in the sense of his regular movement. He's old, he leans heavily on his stick and his weight shifts awkwardly as a result....that follows through.

    With the climactic AotC fight scene however, I get the impression that we're not going to see Yoda fight in such a way again. To do so would cheapen his appeal of AotC. The Yoda of ESB was visibly weakened by lifting the X-Wing from the swamp (his only real display of Force skill) and similarly Yoda is exhausted after his short and sharp battle in AotC.

    I agree that when watching the trilogy in numerical order, it may seem odd that Yoda is CG in one and a puppet in another. But certainly no worse than the rest of the CG work in the prequels impacting on the other films (completly digital environments in one as opposed to physical set pieces).

    Yoda's always going to be Yoda in the end ;)
  19. D_Lowe Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 6
    This thread is allowed to stay because it's essentially comparing PT Yoda to OT Yoda and discussing the bridging between the films. Now lets have no more talk of it
      You got it :) ;)
  20. Ternian Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2000
    star 4
    Yoda's always going to be Yoda in the end

    Bah. I rarely watch the OT but last night I got the hunger for ESB.

    Yoda is NOTHING like he is in the PT - looks nor personality wise. I hope that EpIII bridges the gap.
  21. The_Anakin_Wannabe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2003
    star 4
    well in looks he is, aside from TPM

    But as for personality, your seeing a Jedi that has witnessed the death of everything he has put his life into - The Jedi Order. He saw the death of all his friends aside from Obi-Wan, however he has not seem him in 20 years. He saw the rise of an Empire.

    The boy has experienced so many things that he just oozes with knowledge and experience. He has changed his belief in the Force. In the PT he followed the Unifying Force closely, in the OT this has changed. He now following a mixture of both the Unifying Force and the Living Force.
  22. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    Over the space of about two decades, Yoda shifts from being No.1 Jedi to seeing all his friends get butchered and ending up as some forgotten guy on an unknown swamp planet. You'd feel a little bit differently, too.
  23. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    I am pretty sure the Yoda of episode 3 will like like the Yoda of AOTC. The two films only take place 3 years apart. And I think the Yoda of TPM is unjustly maligned. He is still good old Yoda. Since AOTC takes place so many years after TPM and so many years before TESB, I dont mind him looking different. They already bridged the look of ACT 1 Yoda and ACT 3 Yoda into ACT 2 Yoda. Digital Yoda is ACT 2 Yoda.
  24. Mortimer_Nerdly Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2002
    star 5
    Digital Yoda in AOTC a bad move

    Hell no. That was probably one of the best things to happen in the saga.
  25. HKChicago Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2002
    star 2
    Yoda is NOTHING like he is in the PT - looks nor personality wise. I hope that EpIII bridges the gap.

    True. Yoda is going to need to go through something big to bridge this gap. I'd prefer it to be tragic, where he suffers a failure due to his own I'm-super-wise-and-green personality. OT Yoda carries a tremendous weight and earned wisdom... I want to see him suffer so when he's teaching Luke we know he's been there.

    As for CGI/puppet, I'm a huge AE supporter, especially for digital environments and vehicle models. But puppet Yoda does the job so he doesn't need to be updated. Digital Yoda is much better but not required.
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