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Digital Yoda in AOTC a bad move

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by 2PacLives, Feb 18, 2003.

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  1. DamonD

    DamonD Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 22, 2002
    It looks like, from this thread and others, that CG Yoda in Ep3 (and added in TPM), and keeping the original puppet in ESB and ROTJ are the most popular opinions. I'd certainly agree with that, although I won't be too bothered if the TPM puppet is left in. No point stressing that much about it.
     
  2. 2PacLives

    2PacLives Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2002
    It looks is if my post has been misunderstood. The digital Yoda looks great....but it doesn't look REAL. Watch AOTC and then watch TESB/ROTJ, the puppet is THERE, talking to Luke. The CGI although looks fantastic, doesn't reach the level of reality that the puppet already had...it doesn't seem tangible.
     
  3. DamonD

    DamonD Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 22, 2002
    Well, then that's down to your personal opinion. I feel the opposite way, I think it looks perfectly real, as real as something which is based on a lump of rubber can be.
     
  4. D_Lowe

    D_Lowe Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2002
    I enjoyed digital Yoda in Episode II. He looked better then he did in Episode I. I found that Yoda looked awesome in the CG format and fully expect and look forward to him coming back as a digital character in Episode III.
     
  5. rpeugh

    rpeugh Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2002
    McCallum has confirmed that Yoda will be digital again in episode 3.
     
  6. The_Anakin_Wannabe

    The_Anakin_Wannabe Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jan 21, 2003
    ESB Yoda is the greatest puppet I have ever seen. It was absolutely amazing. I think Digital Yoda's hair lets the character down, however it is still the greatest CGI I have seen, years infront of Gollum. However I don't really see any difference in the way the actors act by having the character actually there.
     
  7. Jack-D-Ripper

    Jack-D-Ripper Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2002
    "It looks is if my post has been misunderstood. The digital Yoda looks great....but it doesn't look REAL. Watch AOTC and then watch TESB/ROTJ, the puppet is THERE, talking to Luke. The CGI although looks fantastic, doesn't reach the level of reality that the puppet already had...it doesn't seem tangible."

    I disagree: I think the CG Yoda DOES look tangible. I'd like to know exactly what you percieve about the digital Yoda that makes him look intangible. And if he doesn't look 100% real, that is more than made up for by the increased realism of his movement, his facial expressions and his speech. I'll ALWAYS take refined movement that CGI gives you over stop-motion or puppetry that may look real, but sure don't move real.

    -JDR.
     
  8. DamonD

    DamonD Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 22, 2002
    The original Yoda puppet was a wonderful creation, but I think the CG version does justice to the concept. And hey, if Frank Oz thinks CG Yoda rocks then who am I to disagree with him? IMO, natch.
     
  9. 2PacLives

    2PacLives Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2002
    Very good points JDR

    I just don't think the CGI Yoda gives off the aura of a living, breathing creature that the puppet did so well. The lighting effects make him stand out rather than blend with the environment. The only word that comes to mind is "shiney"....he's just too shiney. Shiney enough to AT TIMES look fake.

    Once again...I do like the CGI Yoda. But watch his death scene in ROTJ and the way he interacts with Luke. You can see, but more importantly you can feel him slowly departing. He's really there in that bed...you could almost touch his skin. I don't think the CGI would have been able to pull it off.
     
  10. Jack-D-Ripper

    Jack-D-Ripper Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2002
    ^Those are reasonable points, and maybe once or twice in AOTC does Digital Yoda not look totally "there" but so far, it is one of the better examples I can think of of CGI really working well for a character as far as making him seem a part of the live action. Only Gollum in The Two Towers has been done as well, batter in some areas, not as good in others.

    To me, the biggest advantage of the CGI Yoda is his eyes: they look full of sparkle and life, something the puppet's eyes lacked, I feel. I think the puppet worked well in Empire and Jedi partly because of the environment he was in: it was dark, dim, organic and creepy, so the puppet works well with the natural atmosphere of its settings. The dim lighting also helps to sell it. But in the Prequels, in their so far more technological settings, digital Yoda seems to work better: a more technologically advanced technique for creating the character seems to work in the more technological surroudings.

    The puppet in Episode I, sucks big time, though. They just got the design and the texture all wrong. (And is it just me, or was the TMP version of the puppet cross-eyed?) The digital Yoda has the right looks, the right proportions: it is based 100% on the ESB puppet and 0% on the TPM travesty.

    -JDR.
     
  11. WellKnownCharacter

    WellKnownCharacter Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 25, 2002
    I cannot begin to comprehend how crappy the TPM Yoda was...He was totally different to anything we've ever seen.
    I like digital yoda. In some scenes he's not quite 'there' but then in others (the majority) he looks better than ever.

    Best digital Yoda scenes (and moments)
    1. Yoda looks suspicious. Looked real and was something we could never get from the puppet.

    2.'Skywalker is in pain,terrible pain.' Lighting was excellent

    3.'Around the survivors a perimeter create!'
    He mixed really well with the enviroment.

    4. Unslinging the saber.
    Just looked fantastic.


    Worst digital yoda moments-
    1. 'impossible too see,the future is.'
    Liquid mouth problems.

    2. 'Even the older more experienced ones'
    Looked pretty shiny

    3. Begun the clone war,has.
    Another case of shinyness.

    Its hard to judge sometimes hes great other times hes not...
     
  12. robfett

    robfett Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2002
    Sorry puppet lovers, but I think all puppet shots should be replaced with CG yoda. Just my opinion, but I don't think George will do that.

    Rick McCallum thinks you're seriously deranged!
     
  13. DamonD

    DamonD Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Best bit about CG Yoda, when it comes to the eyes, is the look on his face after experiencing Anakin's anger on faraway Tatooine.

    When he opens his eyes and looks at Mace for the first time, he looks the closest I've ever seen Yoda to crying.
     
  14. Wise-Master

    Wise-Master Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 11, 2002
    Personally.... I like the digital Yoda.
     
  15. The_Anakin_Wannabe

    The_Anakin_Wannabe Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 21, 2003
    When he opens his eyes and looks at Mace for the first time, he looks the closest I've ever seen Yoda to crying.

    I personally think that that shot is the worst of Digital Yoda.

    Many people say that Digital Yoda lacks because he wasnt there with the actors, and the actors performance lacks because of that. I think this comes down to directing and not necessarily the CGI character. I was watching Starship Troopers the other day. All of the 'bugs' are CGI, yet the actors react very very well to them. Paul Verhoven would jump around and do crazy stuff in the position where the CGI bug was going to be placed, helping the actors get into the scene and the situation. Being surrouded by blue talking to a dot would be hard for the actor to get into character. I think this is George Lucas's fault for not helping to create an enviroment for the actor, rather than the CGI character.
     
  16. Cal_Omas

    Cal_Omas Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2003
    Sure, AOTC-Yoda is cool, but Yoda has absolutely no continuity TPM-AOTC. If anyone with the time could please show us some pictures of TPM-Yoda and AOTC-Yoda? You would see what I`m talking about.
     
  17. Turkilma

    Turkilma Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 23, 2001
    TPM

    [image=http://galactic-voyage.com/images/Phantom%20Menace/yoda5%20(2).jpg]
    [image=http://galactic-voyage.com/images/Phantom%20Menace/yoda.jpg]

    AOTC

    [image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/052.jpg]
    [image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/promo16.jpg]
    [image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/fotos4.jpg]
     
  18. Jack-D-Ripper

    Jack-D-Ripper Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2002
    "Sure, AOTC-Yoda is cool, but Yoda has absolutely no continuity TPM-AOTC."

    And thank GOD for that! The TPM puppet was awful, and I'm glad they scrapped its design entirely and went back to the source: Stuart Freeborn's original. AOTC's Yoda may break the continuity established by TPM as far as Yoda is concerned, but it does re-establish continuity with the OT Yoda, and that is far more important than keeping it in line with the TPM version.

    -JDR.
     
  19. rpeugh

    rpeugh Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2002
    Actually, they specifically were trying to make AOTC Yoda into a blend of TPM Yoda and OT Yoda. TPM Yoda is unjustly maligned. Dont you guys look different than you did 35 years ago? Or even 10 years ago?
     
  20. DamonD

    DamonD Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 22, 2002
    But the difference between someone that's 90 and someone that's 100 won't be that obvious.

    So it is for Yoda, and his vastly increased lifespan would exaggerate this even more.
     
  21. rpeugh

    rpeugh Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2002
    True, but we dont know how Yoda's species ages.
     
  22. The_Anakin_Wannabe

    The_Anakin_Wannabe Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 21, 2003
    DamonD just brought up the point that I was about to make. Yoda doesnt look very Yoda in TPM. AOTC does bridge the gap to the OT verywell.
     
  23. Meatypants

    Meatypants Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I agree with others. The TPM Yoda needs a full-on Special Edition fix. Not only does the crusty cross-eyed puppet look out of place, but Frank Oz's cutesy Fozzy voice through many of those scenes gave the impression that he hadn't done Yoda in a while (obviously).
     
  24. Jack-D-Ripper

    Jack-D-Ripper Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2002
    "Actually, they specifically were trying to make AOTC Yoda into a blend of TPM Yoda and OT Yoda."

    Oh, they may have said that they were making it a bridge between the TPM Yoda and the OT Yoda to keep Lucas happy, but I'll bet Coleman and co. thought the TPM Yoda sucked really badly, or else they wouldn't have absolutely bust their asses on animation tests to convince Lucas to do Yoda digitallty: you can see, from the documentary material on the DVD, that they really wanted to convince Lucas, so that Star Wars fans everywhere could enjoy the film more. I do defend Lucas quite a lot, but I have to concede that some of his ideas are just, well, stupid and in many cases, its the concept artists that really save the films: they provided many ideas to AOTC that eventually became KEY parts of the film.

    "TPM Yoda is unjustly maligned. Dont you guys look different than you did 35 years ago? Or even 10 years ago?"

    I may have looked a little different, but I can still actually recognize myself in old pictures. I just don't actually see the connection between the original Yoda and the TPM Yoda AT ALL. I'm sorry, but TPM Yoda doesn't even register as Yoda in my mind.

    -JDR.
     
  25. DamonD

    DamonD Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Actually, I got the impression more that it was Lucas that thought TPM Yoda kinda sucked, and was trying to be as polite about it as possible. Stuff like 'wanting a blend' and 'Anakin looks different, so will Yoda, heh heh' and so on. That's sounds like prime grade 'trying not to annoy my workers' speak to me.
     
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