Senate Diplomatic Firestorm

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Skywalker8921, Jun 24, 2013.

  1. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Link

    Well, that's not scary that then CIA director David Patraeus was okay with your appliances spying on you. But he couches it in 'person of interest' only. So no way would it ever be collected on the av--oh--wait, they're already doing this with online accounts. Again: not paranoid, but this system invites so much abuse and the law is really insufficient to keep up with it. And the judge rubber-stamps all requests for information. Yes, yes, the minor edits were made, but they were still issued.

    Not to mention that the NSA routinely lies to congress and not even congress can talk about a lot. It just creates a situation where trust is lost and once the public trust is gone then the government is going to lose its grip on things. I'm not warning of a dire revolution or anything, but the fact that so much is being classified means trust is real low among the public.

    By the way: routinely sifting through info is all fine and good until you're a target of the government and since our government is classifying so much these days it's really hard to tell what will get you on their watch list. So in other words: you're only background chatter until they decide you're a threat and you won't even know why you're a threat.
    Last edited by Fire_Ice_Death, Jun 30, 2013
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  2. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    I galloped by it as I took the moral high horse to the finish line without guilt or remorse.
  3. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9

    Old but interesting

    It's been awhile now, and it has not happened. But yes Comcast wants a camera in the box. You know, 'cuz that would not be abused. Not by the NSA or anything. Nope.
  4. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    Merkel disagrees:
    If it is confirmed that diplomatic representations of the European Union and individual European countries have been spied upon, we will clearly say that bugging friends is unacceptable," said Chancellor Angela Merkel's spokesman, Steffen Seibert. "We are no longer in the Cold War."
    Source
    Last edited by SuperWatto, Jul 1, 2013
  5. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Oh. Um. OK. I explained it a few pages back. True story.

    @SuperWatto... don't be naive.
  6. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Ender Sai, are you trying to say that countries don't publicly announce their espionage? Like they are just trying to keep it some sort of big secret or something?
  7. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Of course she has to say she doesn't like it, or her approval rating will decrease. But it's not like Germany doesn't try to spy on its allies, or like she's really surprised by this.
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  8. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Most countries aren't as bad at espionage as America Wocky, yes.
  9. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    The point that you are missing is that collecting data is different from reading it.

    For example, I have a server monitoring system that collects and processes tens of thousands of log entries every day. I'm not interested in reading all of those log entries, unless something is out of the ordinary and needs my attention. Our monitoring system sorts through those thousands of entries and applies a set of criteria to decide whether they need extra attention or not. If they do, then it flags the logs for my review and I read the specific entries that were flagged. From there, I decide if I need to look at other related logs to see if there is a bigger problem.

    It works the same way when you are talking about phone data, Facebook posts, or server logs. They aren't interested in reading your specific Facebook posts. They simply have too much data to sort through to take the time to focus on your mundane existence. However, they don't know who in all of that data is worth reading, until they process that data. And sometimes, you need to look back at data that seemed mundane when a later event makes that same data more interesting.

    Essentially, they aren't interested in reading your posts unless they get flagged by some of their criteria for what makes something "interesting". Until that happens, no one is interested in reading your posts. However, they can't just collect the "interesting" posts unless they have a way to process them and determine which ones are "interesting" in the first place. The only way to do that is to collect the data, process it, and then only read the things that get flagged as "interesting".
  10. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    So, everyone remembers when you call customer service "This call may be monitored or recorded for training purposes" that you tune out?

    It's not may.
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  11. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Well, the diplomatic firestorm is definitely worsening.

    The President of Bolivia left Russia today. On rumor that Snowden was on board, France, Portugal, and Italy denied airspace to the plane. The President of Bolivia has been forced to land in Austria, where he is being grounded and unable to leave. So far, it seems to have only been a rumor, but Bolivia is furious that its President's safety has been threatened, as well as grounded and humiliated.
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, Jul 2, 2013
  12. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Now Morales has been humiliated. This is getting surreal.
  13. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    Interesting that so many countries have essentially said "**** this guy!"
  14. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Why shouldn't they? He's fundamentally a bombastic, hypocritical idiot. Despite his claims of disgust for the intelligence world, he took pretty much the surest path to continued involvement and interaction with it. I wouldn't call a "firestorm" one showboat's fading cries for attention.
  15. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Speaking of idiots...is it wise for these governments to incite Latin America? Or the European citizenry, many of whom are already livid over the NSA findings?

    On edit: Just for clarification, I wasn't calling you an idiot, Jabba.
    Last edited by drg4, Jul 3, 2013
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  16. McLaren Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 2
    Last edited by McLaren, Jul 3, 2013
  17. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    Heartening.
  18. Juliet316 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2005
    star 7
  19. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    I doubt you'd be getting a visit...they'd probably start paying attention to other people you're talking with. The FBI isn't interested in individuals so much as networks-why settle for one bombmaker, or the guy setting the bomb, when they can potentially snare both of those guys, whoever's paying for everything the guy planning, and the guy giving the orders?
  20. McLaren Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 2
    Boba, I take your words about "doubt" and "probably" as a shrug - that a government dossier of every communication you will ever make is no big deal. Tell me, when your cell is lost or stolen, how do you correct the NSA's records? When you're then held on suspicion, how will you prove your innocence?
  21. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    I support Air Traffic Operations for the FAA. While I haven't received requests from law enforcement for my servers' logs*, those servers are hosted in the same FAA facility (in fact, the next row over) as the servers involved in this incident. The FBI was involved in that case, which (IIRC) was traced back to hackers in China.

    * Of course, my servers' logs are also transmitted to and analyzed by the FAA's network security team, which would be the first stop for the FBI in any investigation. They would be the ones to call the FBI in.
    Last edited by Kimball_Kinnison, Jul 4, 2013
  22. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9


    You're rather badly mistaken. Feel free to keep making irrelevant grasps at people's grammar, though, and suggesting terrorists are going to steal my cell phone. :rolleyes:
    Last edited by DarthBoba, Jul 4, 2013
  23. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    Well I suspect all the NSA has to do is speak with the phone company and check your records before it was stolen.

    Edit: Or like, their own records.:p
    Last edited by Barriss_Coffee, Jul 4, 2013
  24. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    Besides, a phone that's stolen and used by someone else will have demonstrably different patterns of usage after the theft.
    (If only the NSA had, say, an absurdly large amount of processing power sitting in a desert so they could analyze these things!)
    Last edited by Dark Lady Mara, Jul 4, 2013
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  25. McLaren Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 2
    Barriss, how would you prove it was "stolen"? I mean, wouldn't everyone use that defense - that's not my phone, officer, mine was stolen.

    There is no need to suggest terrorists will steal your phone, Boba. Reality is much more mundane than that...

    The potential for errors and/or gaps in this all seeing database must be recognized. Ones of which we will not be aware until after our arrest. Think of the injury caused by corrupted credit reports. And, those are free for you to review annually! Will the NSA provide us a copy of our communication dossier?

    As Kimball's article reinforces, the government's track record at protecting PII is abysmal. While faceless bureaucrats could certainly, in the name of peace and security, abuse their "collection," data could certainly be stolen or intentionally corrupted by external entities.

    Which brings us full circle: how will we prove our innocence?
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