CT Disconnect between the Emperor and the Empire

In ANH we learn that the Empire wiped out the Jedi, and that the Jedi are now nothing but an obscure myth that only some people are aware of, Han and Tarkin both refer to the Jedi as an ancient religion, and since the Empire is in control of the galaxy we can assume that this is at least partially due to the Empire's propaganda and efforts to erase the Jedi from everyone's memory. We then see and Imperial officer, Motti, insult the force and call it an ancient religion. The Death Star is built up to the Empire's ultimate weapon and that is clearly due to how technologically advanced it is. And so the Empire, based on ANH seem to be very atheistic and proud of their advanced technology. However, the Emperor himself is a force user, which contrasts heavily with how the Empire has been portrayed. There are also differences in terms of how they look visually, the Empire's interior designs are all cold and clean, and so are their uniforms, they're very neat and tidy, the stormtrooper uniforms look rather high-tech, almost robotic, and are appear to be squeaky clean, however, the Emperor wears an old, ragged, cloak. This contrast is shown at it's clearest in ROTJ when the Emperor walks through the Death Star's docking bay, the Imperial officers and soldiers are all standing up straight whilst the Emperor has a crooked back. There's also the fact that the officers in ANH are very rude towards Vader, and if he is meant to represent the Emperor's interests, it can perhaps be implied that this shows how the officers view the Emperor as well. I know I'm not the first person to speculate that all the officers onboard the Death Star may have had a desire to overthrow the Emperor.

What are your guys's thoughts on why there is such a contrast between the Empire and Emperor? (ignoring the prequel's explanation)

For me personally I always saw it as meaning that the Emperor did not come from Coruscant and was instead a very, very old force user how manipulated the Empire into killing the Jedi.

 

Per your instructions, I will ignore the prequels for my response. Based solely on the OT, it would seem that the Emperor's reign was predicated on fear. As such, perhaps he purposefully contrasts with the Empire at large so others can fear him more. 2 specific points come to mind.

(1) In ROTJ, Piett is very nervous when Vader informs him that the Emperor was coming to Death Star II. Vader: "The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am." Basically, the Emperor is even worse than Vader who is known to kill officers for a few mistakes. To be seen as worse than Vader, someone who kills via force choke, perhaps the Emperor openly uses his powers.
(2) In ANH, Tarkin said that the Emperor permanently dissolved the Senate with the intention of having fear of the Death Star enable regional governors to maintain control over their territories.

That's all I have really. Gotta give you props, because I had never thought about that contrast until now.

 

That's an interesting idea, but it still seems rather odd that the Imperial officers would be so against the force or any ''sorcerer's ways'' if their own Emperor was a powerful force user. The Empire seen in Episodes V and VI seems to be very different from the one seen in Episode IV

 

That's a good point. Whereas in ANH it seemed like the "sorcerer's ways" viewpoint was common in the Empire, the subsequent movies never highlight that point of view again.

 

i've always had the feeling that it was not common knowledge that Palpatine was a Force user. Probably any Imperial he had to deal with personally didn't walk out of his office to talk about it.
And it was pretty rare that he would deal with anyone himself.

 

I think Palpatine was probably just most comfortable in his Sith robes. He spent so much time disguised as a Senator and Chancellor that by the time the Empire is formed, he no longer needs to hide. Walking around in ROTJ as Sith Lord Emperor Palpatine probably brought much pride to him. Plus, there's also the disfigured face he might want to hide. Could he have worn a nicer cloak? Sure, but the one he wears is his usual Sith cloak.

I don't know if the Empire knew Palpatine was a Force user. Surely, some people closest to him knew. But the Imperial officers and stormtroopers? Possibly not. It would be a contradiction for him to kill off the Jedi and label them and the Force as frauds if everyone knew that he himself was a Force user suscribing to an equally ancient religion.

That was Jererrod, but your idea still holds.

 

Well, to be fair, it might actually be due to how the Imperial officers in the Death Star are different to the others. Motti, who shows the most hostility towards Vader, is obviously very proud to the point of arrogance about the Death Star's power, and then Tarkin blows up Alderaan without the Emperor's permission or knowledge and basically acts on his own. The only reason Vader was there was because he was assigned to the task of retrieving the plans. This would explain why he gets treated so badly, it's because the officers in charge of the Death Star are all arrogant and proud of their technology and Vader is out of his element.

This adds a rather interesting layer to ANH if it's true, had the Death Star not been destroyed they may have indeed overthrown the Emperor.

 

But why would he be okay with the Imperial officers being so atheistic? And why would he not at least try and blend in by not wearing a black, ragged cloak?

Obi-Wan does tell Luke in ANH that Vader was seduced by the dark side of the force so we can assume that when Lucas wrote ANH he did plan for the Emperor to be a force user, but it still seems odd that the Empire is so anti magic and sorcery when the Emperor himself is the most powerful sorcerer in the galaxy.

 

The not promoting the Force and "sorcery", might be an attempt to ensure no challengers to Palpatine's rule are allowed to flourish.

 

The Emperor in the OT kind of reminds me of Joseph Stalin's rule. Stalin abolished the Christian church in Russia not because he was a nonbeliever, but because the church was a threat to his dictatorial powers.

 

Typically religion would put something 'above' Palpatine which is why dictators don't normally like the idea (unless it is useful to control the masses or the leader is a nationalist, like in Germany, etc). Normally however totalitarian regimes are very theocratic since it is a good controlling mechanism so it is likely some type of religious significance was given to Palpatine (this doesn't always extent to the 'top brass' who are normally kept in place through ambition). So while they may not be outwardly 'religious' normally they share a similar mentality - much like Communism and Fascism.

1) Vader demonstrates the Force so it is reasonable people believe that it is real - they just have no respect for it.
2) Even if they didn't they wouldn't be 'atheistic' since the Force isn't theistic (as for as we know).

 

Ever heard of Episodes 1-3?

All your answers are there.

The Emperor doesn't promote the force because only 2 Sith there shall be: a master and an apprentice; the emperor and Vader

The empreror doesn't come from coruscant...he's from Naboo...and was taught the ways of the Sith by Darth Plagueis...the emperor is not very old...he's just the most powerful Sith Lord ever because of the succession of Sith Lords ever since the reign of Darth bane which passed down what was taught generationally...this caused him to accumulate vast knowlede and power regarding the dark side...it all started with Darth bane who started the rule of 2...this was stated in season 6 of the clone wars...

I suggest you watch the prequel trilogy and the Yoda arc from season 6 of the clone wars tv show to expand your knowledge on this topic

 

The Emperor doesn't need/want to "blend in". He is a mysterious figure, rarely seen by anyone (he doesn't talk to Jerjerrod when he arrives to the DS and probably Jerjerrod has never even seen the Emperor). He doesn't bother himself with day-to-day affairs of the rulling of the Empire. He is a distant and feared presence. That's why he doesn't appear in ANH, only appears through hologram in Empire and finally arrives in Jedi. He's supposed to be a feared presence, someone you don't see regularly.

It's also worth noticing that the concept of who the Emperor was changed after the first movie, in which the villains were presented as arrogant, boring, anti-religious regular men (notice the lack of music in most of their scenes), who only care about technological power, as opposed to the heroes, who rely on more personal and spiritual values.
With the second movie, the portrayal of the villains changes to a more lavish and operatic appearance, (as the story changes from a political fight against a totalitarian Empire to a more personal quest of Luke and the Jedi againts their enemies, who need to be more Jedi-like), with a more fantastical and comic-book portrayal. There is a dramatic over-the-top musical theme to portray them, Vader now has super-powers and is the one in charge while the rest of the officers are just pathetic pawns, and the Emperor is a feared distant figure.

But in both cases, the Emperor is not actually a part of the Empire, he doesn't work with the rest of the officers.

 

If you are that powerful you can run around in a towel and no one would complain about it. The Emperor cares about what the Emperor wants and not about the thoughts and desires of the men and women serving him. Such is his arrogance.

In the Tarkin novel at least, his force powers are not common knowledge. Only Tarkin suspects that he is a Sith Lord because Vader serves him. It's really the only explanation that makes sense. If the Emperor openly used the force, then Motti wouldn't dare insult it, the imperial officers would be quick to sing praises to the force as to appear as good servants to the Emperor.

 

Didn't you read the original post? This topic strictly pertains to the relationship between the Emperor and the Empire, as portrayed in the OT.

 

why would he care? The only anti-force one i saw was Motti. Tarkin never said anything against the Force, he only said Vader was all that was left of their religion. The Emporer's attitude is 'let them think what they will, as long as they fear us.'

 

So your purposely ignoring all other canon just to raise hypothetical questions for yourself which will ultimately have no definitive answer? LOL...o..kay...

 

It was pretty simple. Sidious wasn't known to be a Sith by many. I am sure Sidious had imperial propaganda that was convincing people that the Jedi were evil and he and his empire are wiping them out. So I am sure that even imperials that were not well versed about the force, probably saw it as useless magic and the empire also seemed to think technology trumped anything. Like the use of star destroyers, death stars. Most of the imperials thought that that is where the power really lies. Motti acknowledged that Vader had sorcerer ways before he was even force choked. But Motti did have a sense of power with his death star. The emperor seemed like he also cared for the technological side of things as well as the force. Sidious was more interested in showing off his "toys" at endor as much as he was trying to turn Luke to the dark side. Vader seemed very much in tune with force abilities over technology. I guess that was something that carried over with him from being a Jedi where Sidious was a Sith only and craved power which also included weapons of destruction.

 

Apparently in the GFFA "ancient" means "became unpopular several years ago" lmaaoo.

Good advice.

2000!

 

In my opinion, based on what we see in A New Hope, the Emperor is, as Tarkin puts it, sweeping away any remnants of the Old Republic. I don't think any of the Imperial officers are aware of the Emperor's Force abilities, and if they are, they certainly don't recognize them as being part of that "ancient religion". If we are to ignore the Prequels, and assume a mind-set of Original Trilogy knowledge only, then is seems as though there has been a serious effort to not only keep the Jedi as some sort of old religious cult in the minds of the Imperials, but in the minds of the population as well. It would appear that through a serious campaign of propaganda after his rise to power that the Emperor dismissed all of the Jedi and any users of the Force.
This also seems apparent in the way some of the officers mock Vader. Perhaps ridicule of the Force and those who practice it is now inherit in the minds of the citizens of the Empire, and it just comes second nature. As far as why there is such a difference in the way the Emperor looks and dresses when compared to his followers, perhaps he is trying to intentionally establish a disconnect; set himself apart.
Just some thoughts.

 

I personally don't view the prequels as being canon nor do I appreciate any part of them. This is just personal taste though, I'd rather not get into an argument about the prequels, but I'll just say for now that it seems clear to me that the events of the prequels were in no way in Lucas's head when he wrote the OT so I don't personally think that they're canon.

 

From everyone's responses I think it seems that the answer to my question was that the Emperor was trying to make the Empire fearful of him due to his reclusive nature and they weren't aware of his force powers either.
I'm interested to know what you guys think about the notion that it was only those on the Death Star who were so against the force and so dismissive of Vader.

 

ROFLMAO! So just because Lucas didn't have all six films perfectly mapped out since 1975 you ignore them as canon...you do realize that Vader being Luke's father wasn't originally in the original script as well...so.by your logic Empire Strikes Back shouldn't be canon also... In addition Luke and Leia being brother and sister wasn't in the original script too...so I guess return of the Jedi shouldn't be canon for you also...I hope you realize that 99% of films turn out differently than their initial scripts...there's a saying in the movie business, "scripts are a guide, they're not the bible..."

I swear discussing The Star Wars saga with people who are original trilogy obsessed is utterly hopeless...

 

In the end of the day, SW are just films, right, they are works of fiction, nothing that happens in them actually happened, and so what I believe to be 'canon' can be decided by myself. If I was brought up watching SW and fell in love with it and felt so attached to the world, but then watched the prequels later on and didn't like them at all and thought that they contradicted and went against the films I loved so much, then I don't see why I can't just say that they didn't happen in my interpretation, that Anakin didn't build C-3PO, that the clone-wars wasn't about a bunch of clones of Boba Fett's dad, that Qui-Gon wasn't Obi-Wan's master, that the force isn't just midi-chlorians and that there was no prophecy about Anakin restoring balance to the force. Just because Lucas or Disney tells me that the prequels are canon, doesn't mean that I have to believe it. Just like how if you interpret an abstract painting a certain way but the art gallery or the artist tell me that it's actually something different, that shouldn't matter, what matters is how I interpret it. The fact is, when I saw the prequels for the first time, they didn't feel like SW to me, and if they did to you, that's fine, but what SW means to me, was missing from the prequels. If you really think that there can only be one 'canon' and that the artist or the publishers are who decided on what is canon, and even if you don't like it, well, tough! Then you're missing the whole point of art. Art isn't maths, where there are right and wrong answers, art is something emotional, something personal, it means something different to each person, just look at this thread, we've all been discussing how we personally interpret the films. When you experience art, it evokes thoughts and feelings inside you, and those are personal to you, it doesn't matter if the artist had something else in mind, what matters is the art, and how it makes you feel, nothing else.
You mentioned that Lucas didn't write ANH with the knowledge that Vader was Luke's father and so Empire shouldn't be canon, well you know what? If you don't like Empire and when you watch it all you're thinking is 'man, this sucks, this doesn't fit in with ANH at all' then that's fine, don't believe it to be canon. The reason I personally think it's canon is because I still think it fits in with ANH and still feels part of the same universe. And it's the universe that I really love the most about SW, when I watch it I feel like I'm being sucked into a completely different galaxy that feels completely believable to me, but personally (I can't say PERSONALLY enough by the way) the prequels didn't feel like they came from the same universe as the OT at all, and so, since I wasn't immersed in them, and since I didn't believe them, I don't think that they are part of the same universe as the OT. You see my point?
If you love the prequels, that's fine, and I don't want to convince you to dislike them, nor do I want you to convince me to like them, the point I'm trying to make is that it's all up to the individual what the can believe about art.

 

Iton, don't mind the PT apologists; many of them tend to overreact at any perceived criticisms. I don't consider the PT canon either.