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CT Disconnect between the Emperor and the Empire

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Iton, Jan 28, 2015.

  1. Master_Lok

    Master_Lok Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2012

    ^ This. I still find it ironic that Stalin was a failed priest too.

    I like to think of the Empire as a military based dictatorship where Vader occasionally flexes his force muscles to keep any cocky governors, officers in line.

    Basically everyone who posted before me said it a lot better. Interesting thread.
     
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  2. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015

    Part of that stems from Lucas's decision to make the Emperor a Force-wielder before TESB. In ANH, the bureaucracy of governors and high-ranking officers controlled the Empire by controlling Palpatine, as one can glean from the original novelization of the film. It's one of those things that Lucas changed his mind about as time rolled on. Retroactively, the Jedi Purge was made to occur twenty years prior to ANH, and people like Han would have bought into this Imperial propaganda that the Force didn't exist. I don't know if Admiral Motti is in his thirties or forties, but while he was apparently cognizant of Vader having powers, he didn't think they were significant. It's somewhat analogous to Grand Admiral Demetrius Zaarin saying of Sidious/Palpatine: "Soon, he will have nothing but his pitiful Force to rely on." This was used to contrast his reliance on technology to Sidious being an dark sorcerer. Something similar is done with Motti with his overconfidence in the power of the Death Star, and Vader Force-chokes him to humiliate and terrify him, though Tarkin kept him from killing him, obviously. But, yeah. Vader seems like one of the many people doing the dirty business of the Empire in ANH. Back then, Lucas had Vader in mind as the murderer of Luke's father and a traitor to the Jedi Knights. He had, for unknown reasons, gone over to the Empire's side and helped them all but annihilate his former Order. Obviously, Lucas changed the Emperor himself into a Sith Lord and the master of Vader when he, Brackett, and Kasdan wrote TESB. It was implied that the Emperor was not a mere figurehead in TESB and it was made explicit in ROTJ.
     
  3. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    As I noted in my thread regarding Tarkin, Palpatine was originally conceived as basically Nixon in the GFFA. He listened only to the advice he wanted to hear, and, if they weren't a threat, didn't care what anyone else thought. He knew (or he thought) he was powerful enough to get rid of any opposition, no matter what they might've thought of him.

    As for the disconnect regarding the Force, I figure Palpatine just spread the word that all those stories about Jedi powers were just myths. After all, compared to the quadrillions of inhabitants in the galaxy, only a fraction actually saw the Jedi truly in action. And, one good re-education effort later, those people probably thought they'd just seen "simple tricks and nonsense" used by a bunch of religious fanatics who tried to kill that nice Supreme Chancellor Palpatine.

    Thus, the whole galaxy either doesn't believe in the Force or just doesn't care, while Palpatine & Vader (supposedly) have a monopoly on Force powers. Or, at least, that's what I figure.
     
  4. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Well put, Kenneth. Reeducation is something dictators like Mao did in the real world. Palpatine wouldn't be above it. He's not above anything.
     
  5. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    The officers in ANH are what the Emperor was intended to be like in 1977. The intention was that Vader turned to the dark side on his own because he was power-hungry and then joined forces (no pun intended) with the Force-hating Emperor in hopes of being rewarded with power.
     
  6. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    "Ancient" means "ancient." The Jedi religion has been around for 25,000 years, I think it qualifies.


    I always got the impression that Han was basically of the same mind as Motti. He had no trouble believing there existed some sort of Force that let you do cool tricks, but he didn't think it was all that powerful, or that it had any religious significance. This is supported by the '76 novelization, where Han says as much.
     
  7. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    When Tarkin says that the Jedi had been eliminated less than 20 years ago. Not ancient by any standard. That's like calling the Xbox 360 ancient.
     
  8. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Good point, Supreme Chancellor. But taking the EU into account, the Jedi and Sith are ancient religions. Tarkin is not clear when he says, "The Jedi Order is extinct." It's Motti who calls them ancient. Tarkin does not say when the Order was wiped out.
     
  9. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2015
    I mean, I'm not defending Lucas so much as I am trying to clarify how revisions and retcons can go down. Whether you agree with them or not is your choice.
     
  10. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    I think the Emperor's cloak looks quite classy, actually :)
     
  11. Beezer

    Beezer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 5, 2013
    I agree with your take on the Imperial Officers, but I am not so sure Vader's abilities change all that much. We know he is a force-user in E4 - although the term Sith never actually appears in the movie (or anything in the OT for that matter). Perhaps he is a bit more ruthless in E5, but I am not really seeing any real "super-powers" beyond the force abilities it was established he has in E4.
     
  12. oierem

    oierem Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Yes, Vader is a force user in episode IV, but the the concept of the force-related abilities changes from that movie to the others: in E4 we don't see any Jedi doing any super-jumps, levitating objects or any other "physical" power. The force is treated as a more mysterious power which can affect the minds of the "weak-minded", but nothing more. It's more of a "close your eyes, and trust your feelings" type of power. It is only in E5 and beyond that we see the Jedi and the Sith doing exceptional stunts, levitating and throwing objects, affecting the physical world with their mind and actually choking people to death (comic-book "superpowers").

    Now, it's true that we see Vader almost choking an Imperial Officer in E4. However, it is a bit different from the other episodes (and it's actually the only moment we see that kind of power in E4). Vader uses his hand to create an impression on the officer, who believes he is choking, but it's "suggested", rather than actually done. Without the other films, it seems to me that Vader is affecting the "weak" mind of the officer (similar to what Obi-Wan does later with his fingers to another Imperial guy), whereas in E5 he actually chokes people without using his hands at all.
     
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  13. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    That Force choke was always physical in my eyes.
     
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  14. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012
    As Lulu_Mars has said and I agree with, Vader was doing more than just a mind trick on Motti. He was actually choking him. However, let's not forget the destruction of the Death Star in ANH. There are parallels between Luke's lessons with the remote and Luke's final trench run. Luke didn't just shoot the torpedo and hope that the Force would help him out. Obi Wan didn't tell him to trust in the Force, he told him to use the Force. Luke turns off his targeting computer, which essentially makes him blind, just as he was blind with the blast shield down during his training. Obi Wan tells Luke to use the Force to see the remote, just as Luke uses the Force to see the exhaust port on the Death Star. Once Luke is able to see the remote, he is able to use the Force to physically guide himself to defend against the remotes blasts, just as when Luke sees the exhaust port, he uses the Force to physically guide the torpedo into the port. Luke used the Force to guide the torpedo instead of depending on technology to do it. There is no mind trick in either instance because there are no minds to manipulate.

    The fact that Luke is expected too and in fact does deflect what amounts to speeding bullets with his sword shows that the ANH did show that the Force had super-powers attached to it.
     
  15. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012
    OK... so where in any of the OT movies is it established that only some know the Jedi ever existed? Or they are now a myth... There is not one character in all 3 movies that says, "What is a Jedi?". Luke is fully aware of what a Jedi is. Luke knows about the Clone Wars, even removing Prequel information, Luke never questions Obi Wan about what a Jedi is when Obi Wan reveals to him that his Father was a Jedi Knight, and that he fought in the Clone Wars. Luke only ever questions what the Force is, which is reasonable that he would know about the Jedi, but, not the Force.

    Leia would know that Obi Wan is a Jedi. Han makes his cynical comments about the Force, so it is logical he would know about the Jedi.

    Dodonna ends his briefing with "May the Force be with you".

    The Jedi are not a myth because they were extinct. I think this is a very common misconception of the OT.

    I think that no one ever knew that Palpatine was a force user, let alone a Sith. Looking at all three movies, it comes across that Palpatine never leaves Coruscant (or whereever he was). Look at ROTJ, when Vader informs Jerjerrod about the Emperor coming to the Death Star, Jerjerrod seems shocked at this idea. I am sure some of it was out of fear, but, it always seemed to me that it was also that most people knew the Emperor never went anywhere.

    It is obvious that just because Vader and the Emperor were Force Users, they didn't make it a requirement for the Empire itself. I would imagine this is a result of them making sure people were ignorant of what the Force was. They went through a lot of trouble to hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights, they would want to make sure that any possibility of more Force Users rising up would be quickly dealt with, and part of that is doing their best to keep the galaxy in a state of ignorance.




    I think you are reading too much into this. His troops and Officers are military. They are expected to look that way. The Emperor is the Emperor, and can wear anything he damn well pleases.
    .




    I only see one officer that is rude to Vader, and he paid for his lack of faith.



    I always thought that the Emperor purposefully kept himself a mystery. The difference you see is that we never see the political arena of the OT, we only ever see the militaristic side of the Empire.
     
  16. timmoishere

    timmoishere Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    The officers in ANH that interact with Vader in some fashion:

    Commander Daine Jir speaks to Vader as if he were an equal. No fear, no deference.
    Commander Praji gives Vader a minor amount of respect, as a soldier to a superior officer.
    Admiral Motti is rude to Vader and gets Force-slapped for it.
    Grand Moff Tarkin bosses Vader around, although there is some dispute about whether Tarkin had genuine authority over Vader, or whether Vader was just playing along.
    Captain Khurgee also treats Vader as though he were nothing more than a superior officer.
    Lieutenant Tanbris seems to be the only officer who gives Vader the sort of fear and respect seen in the other two OT films.
    Vader's two wingmen also treat him similarly to Praji, deferring to him when he wanted to take the lead in the trench.

    So while Motti was the only one who was outright rude to Vader, there just isn't the cautious fear seen in Jerjerrod, Piett or Needa.
     
  17. Oissan

    Oissan Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    I think the behaviour had more to do with a lack of knowledge about and experience with Vader. Up to ANH, he didn't really need the fleet for all that many purposes, he was the Emperor's enforcer, but the fleet was getting along just fine. As such, officers of the fleet wouldn't really have much experience with with him and thus have no reason to really fear him. This changes once Vader takes command. Now he has a reason to get involved and lets the officers feel his might. This makes them fear him and explains the difference between ANH and ESB/ROTJ.
     
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  18. DealAlterer

    DealAlterer Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2012
    Well let's play conspiracy theory for a moment. Who do you think are the real "leaders" of the world? The lawmakers? The elected officials? The president? Or is it the oil tycoons, the hedge fund managers, and the corporate conglomerates? The people with all the money and the people with all the power.

    But what if it didn't end there. What if they all answered to a higher power as well? What if they too served a master?

    My question is how deep does the rabbit hole really go? How high up do you have to climb the ladder before you discover that the real person pulling the strings behind it all is in fact a creepy old man in a hooded cloak that worships the devil and practices sorcery?

    All of the world's leaders and all of the world's wealthiest and most powerful people... what if they were all carrying out the will of just one man? Albeit completely unbeknownst to them? Wouldn't that be kind of scary?




    That's basically The Emperor.

    If the films are any indication, only a few high ranking officials had a line to the Emperor. Vader, Tarkin, and maybe a few others... but that was about it. In ROTJ when that admiral learned the Emperor was coming to visit, he seemed kinda surprised. Kinda leads me to believe that Emperor stayed mostly low key and in the shadows.
     
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  19. oierem

    oierem Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Well yes... and no. What I meant is that in E4 the are no super-jumps or levitating objects. Those are the kind of flashy comic-book-type superpowers that appear in later movies, but are curiously absent in the original movie.
    Luke "using" the Force (and letting the Force use him) is a rather abstract power, more related to instinct and a spiritual conection with a higher power. "Don't trust your eyes, don't trust the machine, believe in yourself"... are the sort of lessons that can be found in spiritual learnings. In E4, the Force is limited to this "spiritual" dimension, as an energy source you can feel if you are good. It is, in a way, a more realistic presentation of the Force (more like "does it really exist? or is it just an excuse to make me believe in myself?")
    In E5, using the Force includes all kinds of cool tricks like choking, jumps, levitating objects.... Things that are clearly not realistic.

    Vader choking Motti is a scene I believe could be read differently if we didn't have the other movies. He doesn't actually choke and, within the context of the movie, could be read more like a "suggestion", like a strong wilded mind influencing a weak mind.
     
  20. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2013

    For me none of the 6 Star Wars films are canon. Also, the EU, the Clone Wars TV shows, the video games, the books and comic books aren't canon either.

    In my personal canon, Luke was a born on dying planet, sent by his father and mother in a spaceship to earth to serve as Christ-like figure, where he lived as an orphan in his foster parents' basement until the day he learned he was magical and then a wizard visited him and sent him on a quest to destroy a ring in the lava from which it was forged, a task he successfully completed, convincing Star Fleet to send him on a 5-year mission to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, and to boldly go where no man has gone before.

    Oh, and I also consider the first Ewok movie canon, but not the second. The second was just a lame money-grab nostalgia-fest.:p
     
  21. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    You do know that you are in the CT forum, right? The one gathering place for OT purists? There is nothing wrong with dismissing the prequels (or vice versa), everyone has a right to view the story however they wish and nobody should be forced to include the unliked parts into their personal canon.
     
  22. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Yeah, I think that's about right, although I think it applies to Vader more than him. Vader's the one who goes around strangling people, using a lightsaber, and generally acting like someone with Jedi powers, not Palps.

    One thing to add to this: I think cultivating a strong belief in materialism/atheism/"there are no such things as Force powers!" in the Imperial bureaucracy would make fear of Vader even more effective. Imperial officers "know" that there is no Force, "know" that the Jedi were just charlatans, "know" that anything they do is just a lot of simple tricks and nonsense... That just makes it much more terrifying when you see Vader actually using the Force, because that's not supposed to be possible. Picture this; you used to believe in monsters under the bed, but you grew up, and you know perfectly well that there are no monsters under the bed (where would they fit, anyway? And why are they never there when the light's on?)... and then, years and years after you've stopped believing in them, one scary and stormy night, a real monster actually does crawl out from under your bed.

    "Was it just the officers on the Death Star who knew...?" Depends what you mean by "knew." I think Vader probably Force-killed his way through enough incompetent and unlucky officers that rumors of him having unnatural powers were probably all over the Starfleet, but I'm sure nothing official to that effect was ever put out, and the strong "good Imperials don't believe in Force powers!" ethos in the fleet probably made many of them believe that it was all rumor and exaggeration. Until they actually met him, that is.
     
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  23. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    A lot of things imply that the public perceived Palps as a figurehead. He'd make speeches like, "Tarkin destroyed Alderaan without my permission. It breaks my heart that my weapon was used to kill people."
     
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  24. Ananta Chetan

    Ananta Chetan Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2013
    Expect some FOX or Disney executives to contact you to negotiate a contract for the movie rights for this soon.

    Of course, then it will be canon.

    :D
     
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  25. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015

    I'm gonna be having some nightmares.
     
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