PT Disconnect between TPM and AOTC/ROTS?

1. Maybe you would understand his need for vengeance simply because it's his mother?

2. You don't need to see that, though.

3. You learn about his "destiny" in Episode II anyway. There are absolutely no hints of his coming discord with Mace Windu (Mace just hates Anakin out of nowhere in Episode III). We don't need to see him being recruited if most of the rest of the film doesn't matter to the rest of the saga.

 

I wouldn't say he hates him out of nowhere. In Episode I, it seemed liked Mace didn't trust him (anakin). He told Qui-Gon that the boy was too old. He might have sensed that trouble lay ahead of Anakin, or even that Qui-Gon's defiance that he could see that the boy was the chosen one and the council couldn't might have irked him. Although in AOTC, he seemed to push that If the prophecy was true Anakin was the one. I see what you say, but a small seed could have been planted in TPM. I see your point though.

 

But it is more personal because as a child, he had to leave her behind. Before he did, he said that he had a dream that he came back as a Jedi and freed the slaves. And when he leaves, he promises that he will come back.

Uh, yes you do. Its the whole reason everything happens. The Clone Wars, the birth of the Empire, the Jedi Purge and Vader's ascension are all tied back to a trade dispute ten years earlier.

It's mentioned again that he is the Chosen One, but without TPM, you don't know how different and how special he is. It isn't until ROTS that you find out what he has to do to fulfill his destiny.

Anakin doesn't hate Mace. He attacked him to save Palpatine's life so that he could use him to save Padme. The point is that Anakin in TPM resents what Mace said about him, which is why Lucas showed Anakin giving him a cold stare when he was denied admittance to the Temple.

The film does matter to the Saga.

1. The Trade Federation invades Naboo, an illegal act that results in Palpatine becoming Chancellor. Lucas has long said that Palpatine started out as a Senator who worked his way up to Emperor.

2. The failure of the invasion results in his arrest which then leads to the four trials in the Supreme Court that Sio Bibble mentions in AOTC. Without TPM, you don't know what it is that he did to warrant four trials.

3. We see the corruption in the Senate which is what Palpatine uses to gain political power and uses as an excuse for gaining more and more power. As well as establishing why the Confederacy leadership formed a Separatist movement.

4. Obi-wan tells Luke about Anakin, including when they first knew each other which is shown in TPM.

5. Anakin being a slave as well as Shmi and the relationship with Watto is what drives Anakin's story in AOTC.

6. Dooku telling Obi-wan that Darth Sidious betrayed Nute Gunray is shown in TPM.

7. Palpatine taking interest in Anakin is established in TPM, beginning that relationship.

I challenge you with this, you say TPM isn't needed, I say ANH isn't needed.

 

It's personal because it's his mother. Maybe it is more personal if we see TPM. That doesn't warrant a film though.

You don't have to see how Palpatine becomes Chancellor. He is Chancellor in Episode II.

A name like the Chosen One implies you're pretty damn special.

I didn't say Anakin hates Mace, I said that Mace hates Anakin.

We don't need to see him as a Senator. Hence a disconnect- Senator for one film, Chancellor for two.

Why should I care? I'll just read an EU novel to get information on that.

We see that corruption in AOTC, too though.

More like lies to him.

But their relationship is strictly mother-son! Shmi and Anakin are already freed anyway by AOTC.

We're told that Sebulba smashed up Anakin's pod in the last race. Do we need a film for that?

Their relationship is established in AOTC, too.

ANH is disconnected from the other two films in their trilogy, too. But if you go strictly saga, TPM isn't needed, ANH is.

 

Oh for Pete's sake! TPM did show how painful separation from Shmi was for Anakin. Just because you didn't like the film, doesn't mean the rest of us have to pretend that such a thing never happened.

We did see how Palpatine became Chancellor . . . in Episode I. If we don't have to see how Palpatine became Chancellor, then we don't have to watch the entire STAR WARS saga as well.

Mace never personally hated Anakin and Anakin never hated Mace. Hell, Yoda was more consistent in his mistrust of Anakin than either Mace or Obi-Wan. And he didn't hate Anakin either.

Who the hell are you to tell us what we need or don't need to see? What makes you think we're going to automatically accept your so-called "wise" musings on the PT?

Oh yes. I keep forgetting about this idea you seemed to have as the ultimate expert on how the SW saga should have played out.

 

Where the hell did I say I didn't like the film?

Where the hell did I say these were my "wise" musings on the PT?

I am the ultimate expert on how the Star Wars saga should have played out? Who says?

 

Exactly what I'm thinking.

 

Sure it does. It's called characterization.

It's important in seeing how a democracy becomes a dictatorship and you show the root cause of it. Nothing happens in a vacuum.

Except TPM goes out of its way by showing him as the good pilot that Obi-wan mentioned, establishes the Midichlorians which created him and identifies him as that and it is the driving reason the Council and Obi-wan agree to train him.

Mace doesn't hate Anakin. He distrusts him in TPM because of his age and his attachments. He trusts him in AOTC because he's earned some trust. In ROTS, he loses faith in Anakin because of his emotional outburst in the Council chambers over Palpatine. His inability to be objective is bothering him and Yoda.

Except we did. We see him take one step up the ladder. Then he takes another step. Then a final step. Just as we see Luke progress from a farm boy to a Jedi Padawan to Jedi Knight.

And here's the crux of your argument. There's more than just you in the world and the information needs to be in the films, the main source of the story and not a book that only the dedicated fan will read.

We see that the Trade Federation has a controlling seat in the Senate which is why the Senate is unable to resolve the Naboo invasion in time. In AOTC, we see a deadlocked Senate without the corporations fighting over creating an army to defend the Republic. The corruption has evolved and changed with each film.

He didn't lie to him about that. Anakin was the only human to race in a podrace and live. He was the first and only human to win. Anakin survived the Battle of Naboo despite not having experience like Ric Oile did.

Right, but Anakin doesn't know this until he returns home. He still thinks she is a slave like he was. Because of this, we the audience is left to wonder what exactly happened to her that he would start seeing her in his dreams.

The last Podrace before Anakin was freed isn't as important as the reason the Clone Wars started in the first place, which is the Naboo invasion.

And we see why he took that interest, because he has lost his own Apprentice to Obi-wan and he realizes that the boy saved Naboo and thus bears watching.

I've demonstrated otherwise.

First off, that's not in the films. Second, it's called characterization. Funny, the PT is criticized for not having it and then for having it. How does that work?

 

Why are you so desperate to get your point across? We have different opinions, can't you just accept that you can't change that?

 

TPM is more or less a prologue. That's partly what I love about it. It lives in its own little bubble, long before the dark times, at the end of the golden age. It gives us a glimpse of what the galaxy used to be and, with Qui-Gon, what the Jedi were supposed to be like: Compassionate, looking out for the little guy, living in the moment, mindful of the signs of destiny. His faith in his instincts never wavers and I find that very inspiring. It's also a theme that runs through his and Anakin's story arc in the movie.
TPM has so much to say and I'm glad that Lucas took the time to delve into that before moving on to the bigger story of the trilogy. A lot of thematic ground was covered and the film's lighthearted and disconnected nature made the tragedy of Darth Vader so much stronger, IMO.

 

Actually, darth-sinister calmly addressed each of your assertions with his usual thoroughness.

Sounds like you can't be bothered to issue a response. Can't entirely say I blame you, but why make it into more than what it is?

This is a discussion board. Things get discussed.

TPM establishes both the attachment and the manner of the attachment.

You might as well claim there's no point in any story because everyone suffers fear, greed, anger, etc.

What makes a story unique, and a character trait unique, are the artifacts of the situation.

I think TPM does a very good job with artifacts, personally.

 

Garrett Atkins: Stating the reasons why TPM is an integral part of the Saga - whether you like it or not - doesn't constitute stating an opinion; it constitutes stating - and demonstrating - fact.

You can pretend all you want that TPM isn't integral to the story of the Saga, but that's all you're doing: pretending.

 

Ok. You created a lot of quite "destructive" thread a while back when you joined. So I just assumed you didn't enjoy them. Sorry.

You've already thrashed it out with darth-sinister, I'm still given my point of view in short:
1.) Anakin origins are extremely important (see below, anakinfansince1983). If you don't flesh out what makes Anakin different from the other Jedi, the story becomes arbitrary because everything has to be assumed. The Jedi's abrupt deprivation of attachment is what makes Anakin addicted to attachment. The Jedi not seeing the danger of that has the same roots: they don't know and can't assess the power of attachment in practical terms. The Jedi's philosophy is presented in TPM.
2.) The inefficeny and corruption of the Senate is preconditioned in AOTC. The corporation's motivation is laid out in TPM. Had Palpatine not been elected as Chancellor, the Republic would not have fallen in that fashion. Ignoring that first and vital step to power would be cheap and, again, arbitrary. A bad guy in the position of Chancellor had to be "assumed".That's like starting with Luke as a Rebel leader. Unsatisfactory.
3.) It would also ead to very specific problems within AOTC, e.g.:
- "The Phantom Menace" (Sidious) would be invisible until the end of AOTC. TPM nicely established Sidious manipulating (which is his prime function in the complete trilogy) both the TF and Amidala within the first minutes.
- it wouldn't be clear why Gunray wants to see Padmé dead and what they are doing in the Galaxy, anyway.
- we would consider Anakin's and Obi-Wan's stressed student/master-relationship as normal instead of derived from their unique formation and background (Obi-Wan losing his master and Anakin being anything the Jedi don't know, again: see below).
- Anakin's mother would be a nobody for us and Anakin's search for her (putting back Padmé's protection) would seem hollow and out-of-place (it's like Luke would rush to search for his missing cousin instead of Han and Leia in ESB).
etc.

It's "normal" for people who (1) grow up with their mother and (2) have the privileg of enjoying a functional and warm relationship with their mother.
In Anakin's case, both conditions are given. In the case of all the other Jedi, neither condition is given. That's established in TPM, by the way.
Since Anakin being different from the other Jedi is an essential part of his fall and his fall is the centre of all three films, TPM as the film that makes this clear is also essential. Having been attached to his mother is what characterizes Anakin as a Jedi. It's what makes him special and different as a part of that Order.

So it comes down to TPM being the first one? That's even more arbitrary.
You have to start your story somewhere. You could have started with TESB and passed on I - IV altogether, sure. You could (have) also stopp(ed) at the end of ANH, ignoring TESB and ROTJ with the Empire being destroyed. It wasn't even necessary to do any Star Wars in the first place. Mankind would have survived without it. But given the specific story that has been told (in contrast to the story that could have been told), TPM was a necessary part of it.

 

Good response.

Sometimes, I don't think people are even watching the same movies that I am.

 

It's called a discussion. That's what we do. That's how it works.

Except we see the nature of the relationship. We get to know Shmi as a character, as well as Anakin and thus we can feel for him more when she dies, than not. What is the one thing Lucas is criticized for not doing enough? Having strong characterization. TPM gives that to us with their relationship so that her death has meaning in AOTC. That's like skipping out on the relationship with Obi-wan and having Luke flip out over a total stranger.

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Actually, it would be like skipping TESB and jumping right to ROTJ without having seen a crucial part of the story. Something which happened to me in the 80's and at the time, not much could be done about it. I go from Darth Vader killed your father to Darth Vader is your father in the space of a year. You need that chapter to understand the story, just as you do with TPm. The only reason you can say that you can skip TPM is because you've already seen it and thus can make that choice. Try that with someone who has never seen a SW film and start them off with AOTC.

 

The two Trilogies are autonomous enough that you can view them separately, but each of their individual components is critical to their overall narrative as well as to the overall narrative when/if they are viewed as a package.

You can try to pretend otherwise, but your argument quickly falls apart.

 

Mace Windu never hated Anakin. He never spent the entire trilogy mistrusting Anakin. Like the other members of the Jedi Council and Obi-Wan, he was wary of Anakin joining the Order in TPM. In fact, Obi-Wan was the only one who expressed outright mistrust of Anakin.
In AOTC,Mace seemed to accept the idea of Anakin being the Chosen One. He was also surprised at Obi-Wan's doubts about Anakin. In "Labyrinth of Evil", the Jedi Council members discovered that someone within Palpatine's circle was either a Sith Lord or had connections to a Sith Lord. Because of this, the Jedi Council members were expressing distrust of Anakin in ROTS - including both Mace and Yoda. Only Obi-Wan seemed to think otherwise.
Where did this belief that Mace Windu hated Anakin came from? Because the Jedi Master was sharp with Anakin, when the latter angrily protested his denial of the title "Master"?

Please get your facts straight.

 

TPM set the stage for prequels, with AOTC or ROTS they carried on the torch into another light

 

Well with Luke and Obi-Wan they established their relationship and killed Obi-wan in one film.
Ex. say that in AotC, Anakin is told to take Padme back to Naboo to protect her. But he views this as stupid as that would be the first place any assassin would look. So instead he takes her to Tatooine, where his mother lives. So instead of the Naboo scenes/love story, you had the love story on Tatooine. You also get to show Anakin's relationship with his mother and you can show the Owen/Anakin relationship.
Then Shmi gets kidnapped and Anakin tries to save her, fails and flips out.
Accomplishes several things at once.

As for the OP.
To me there is a slight disconnect when it comes to the characters. The first film was focused on Qui-Gon but he died at the end so that focus was lost. The second film has an about equal focus on Obi-Wan and Anakin. Only RotS is soley focused on Anakin. All three OT films are focused on Luke.
Anakin is played by a different actor and behaves very differently. In part normal as he has gone from age 9 to 20 and most people tend to change a lot there. But it was abit jarring to me.
Obi-Wan had so little to do characterwise in TPM, more here which is good but it also meant some things were a bit rushed.
In AotC the seps threat is totally new and somewhat underdeveloped. We get a new Sith, Dooku, who also was somewhat underused. In RotS we again get a new secondary villain, one that I found very lacking.
Pace-wise I also think the films differ a bit. TPM has it's own pace, takes it's time. AotC meanwhile feels a bit rushed and RotS even more so. RotS especially feels overstuffed with events that have to happen. The pace of the three OT films feels a bit more even.

From TPM to AotC there is a tonal shift from mostly lighthearted and fun to much darker.
There is a somewhat similar shift from ANH to ESB, planetary holocaust notwithstanding, but to me, it was bigger between TPM to AotC.
To be fair, each PT gets darker and darker. The OT jumps around a bit more, light to darker to lighter again. So the PT is a bit more consistent here.

In closing, I wouldn't do away with TPM but I do think that some things that were pushed to AotC could have been established here. And this could have benefitted both TPM and the later films.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Yes, but I meant that Luke didn't really know Obi-wan, but goes along with this guy he barely knows for ten minutes and then gets upset over his death. In the finished film, Luke's known Obi-wan for much of his life. Hence the impact of seeing his friend, mentor and his last link to his father die.

But misses out on key elements such as Anakin's emotional attachment to Naboo as well as to Padme, preferring it to Tatooine, establishing the continued threat of the Trade Federation from the Naboo invasion, establishing the disparity between the Gungans and the Naboo. All those things are lost.

 

And if Anakin goes to stay with Shmi, who is his mother then we likewise get an idea that Anakin has known his mother for quite a while and the impact of having her be killed in front of him is very strong. Esp if he has grown up without a father. So again, it could have been done in one film.

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Anakin and Naboo are hardly what I would call, "key elements". He likes it better there but that bit of dialogue is only a part of a less than good romance dialogue. It plays no part in his further character development. Also, what he likes is Padme and he wants to be where she is. If she were to move to Tatooine, he would follow. So Naboo is only important in that Padme lives there.
The TF is only a threat in ep II and III because they are a part of the seps, alone they don't do much.
We have a grudge from Nute against Padme but that is a pretty minor issue.
The Naboo/Gungan disparity is not a key element over the three films. It has some relevance in TPM. Here we learn that the two kind of, sort of, don't like each other all that much. They do co-operate at the end, showing strength in unity. However that victory turned out to be meaningless in the overall scheme. Jar Jar later is a representative in the senate but we also see that this might not have been a good idea. Had the Naboo/Gungan animosity been played up a bit, as I think it was in some of the earlier drafts, then their working together would have had a greater dramtic impact.
As it is now, it is pretty meh.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

It's not as tragic this way. The tragedy as it is, is that he believes in his heart of hearts that he will come back and free her, only to come back and have her die in his arms. That there was an injustice in all this as he had to endure being away from Shmi for so long, due to his training, only to be denied a happy reunion, because he was told to ignore his dreams by Obi-wan and thus he loses it. This in turn fuels his obsession with his visions of Padme's demise, when they come around.

In ROTS, Padme talks about wishing they were back at the lake house, away from the war and the pressures of the politics, where it was just the two of them in love.

Partly, but it also represents his freedom from Tatooine and from the Jedi Temple. He's no longer a slave and he's not under the watchful eye of Obi-wan. He can be himself with someone that he cares for. And when he was a boy, this was the second planet he ever saw and it was a far cry from Coruscant and Tatooine.

And that threat exists because of what they did in TPM.

It is one that serves as the key to starting the Clone Wars, because it is Nute's grudge that resulted Zam and Jango going after her, which lead to the discovery of the Clone Army and the Droid Army. It also gives rise to Anakin's bloody swath of vengeance in ROTS and makes his killing of Nute much more personal.

 

Another disconnection between Episode 1 and 2/3: the absence of this ship.



After Episode I, this ship seemed poised to become the Millennium Falcon of the prequel trilogy.

GL crammed four of Padme's chrome hot-rod ship designs into the PT although one would have sufficed. It's entirely understandable - George had amazing artists working for him, he loves the 50s retro classic car/spaceship look, and would want to showcase as many of those wonderful designs on screen as possible.

It was detrimental to the visual storytelling, though. Having the same ship throughout the trilogy would have given strong visual continuity to the movies and convey to the audience that these are the same characters on the same adventure, just in a different episode. Imagine if Han Solo got through four ships in the OT, and we never saw the Falcon again after A New Hope. It just wouldn't be the same, would it? The Falcon is both a home to the characters and a character in its own right, and it would have been great if Padme's ship from Episode I had taken on the same role in the PT.

Also, the ship could have been modified to reflect the changing galaxy - by Episode III, the clone wars are in full swing and the ship is covered in heavy weaponry. The clean, graceful lines are gone, interrupted by ugly, industrial-looking weapon emplacements.

Another alternative: imagine the intro of Episode II, but with the ship from TPM flying into Coruscant. The audience reaction: hey, look! It's that ship from last time! It's good to see it again. I wonder what crazy scrapes our heroes will be flying into this time-BANG. No more ship. That would be a foreboding and dramatic way to open the film.

The emotional impact of the ship's destruction would have been much greater if it were the ship our heroes had spent the last movie travelling the galaxy in, rather than a ship the audience has never laid eyes on before. It would send a clear message to the audience: nothing is safe. Everything you take for granted can be taken away in an instant. Lucas's need to have four silver ships rather than three was detrimental to the visual storytelling in this instance.