Full Series Discuss/Regrade the Episode: S03E13: Monster

Yup! That was cruel...

I am not sure if you have noticed, but there are tons of fans that are aligned to a faction. There are Fandalorians, there are Clone fans, there Republic-supporter, there are Jedi fans, there are Imperials... I, myself, love and am loyal to the CIS so yeah... I will rightfully use THE HAMMER OF THE CIS when describing the events on Dathomir.

1. So freaking what?! Who cares if they are not alive? They are still just as awesome in what they do as any life form.
2. Ok. Strangling a guy is something that even a Hutt knows.
3. I do not know why is it creepy, but whatever. You are the one that needs to clearly proclaim that droids are not alive. No, I am not a dark side fan. I AM A PROUD CIS FAN... READ THE AWESOME PROFILE PICTURE!!


I do not know what is this whole pacifist convo up there, but I meant WORTHLESS cause in the eyes of Ventress and Talzin...well... Feral was a worthless alien, just another cog in their master plan of revenge.
Did not get the whole grand speech about

This is how Star Wars works... there are interests - Sidious's, Gunray's, Tikkes's, Maul's, Krell's... many times these interests cross with other people's interests and that creates conflict in one way or another. And one way or another people die or suffer in those conflicts. It does not matter if it s a clone or a Sith or a Separatist commander... it is Star WARS... people die in wars. So the killing of Feral or the glorious massacre of the Dathomir witches by General Grievous are just parts of this big space opera that we love so much. Some of them leave other events that lead to next events so on and so on. It all depends on the POV. If you are a fan of Ventress, you will be on her side and not care what happens to the person she orders Savage to get rid off. It depends on the eyes of the beholder. For you, you are making it like Feral was the most important character in SW... for me, well, I did not care much for Feral... he is just a throaway character to make a point. He died... it was pointless, but the other option could have been to just leave him into oblivion as Savage never goes back to his village.

4. Making it Han Solo stuff does not make it better than Darksider stuff. She could have dealt with him in many other ways like troll him with the Force and leave him incapacitated in a trash can somewhere. She killed him anyway and nobody cared like the way Savage did not care or show some kind of regret over time that he killed his brother.

5. To make it as simple as I can - not every character has a story arc. That is just stupid. Some characters appear, do nothing and are gone. Like Greedo in TCW. He showed up, did nothing and just ran away for us to never see him in the show again - no arc. Adi Gallia... do you know why they attempted to give her a tragic death?! It was a mandatory kill to make Savage look awesome and powerful.
Gallia is one of the few Jedi on the show that NEVER had any story or evolution or anything. She was just there. Unlike in the comics, she was meant to be the third wheel on every mission and just providing a second person to a coversation. She had no arc and had no growth and her appearances carried little weight. That is why when she died in the episode, most fans were like MEH to the way it was done (or pissed at the EU destruction).
Again, the Feral thing was never meant to impact Ventress since that was a person who she deemed as nothing to her and she was still a bad person. Feral might have been the most awesome and nice person in SW history, but if he is dealing with somebody like Ventress who was still an evil person... just not on anybody's side. Not on the CIS side, but on her own. She did not realize the error of her ways until bad things happened to people she cared about.

Ok... I do not know what to say about the Bond stuff. Especially about saying that in any case, you would find it gross that James Bond is sleeping with a random woman.
That has little to do with Feral, but whatever.

I am sorry that you can not see that in TV shows bad people do bad stuff. And again, it was Savage who killed him and Ventress killed dozens of other before that so AGAIN why would she care for another Zabrak. She is a former Separatist commander, Sith acolyte and now a Nightsister of the fold... it has been explained in the show and EU, but Ventress's people see the zabraks on Dathomir as lesser beings so she would not have reason to care for him or any of the others she killed at that point. Only until bad things happen to the people SHE CARES ABOUT, do things really start to have a different meaning for her.

 

I always figured it was because she didn't want Ventress to be on Dathomir when Savage and Maul returned.

 

Dan: Chill out, dude. That's just not the kind of fan I am. I don't side with groups. It find it silly. Liking a character or finding her intriguing doesn't mean I agree with her immoral actions; it's simply interesting to explore a different morality. Enjoying narrative has nothing to do with advocating some character's actions as if they're real.

I only said the droid thing because it sounded like you were saying she was still sadistic because she throws droids off cliffs. I'm not insulting droids (though if I were, it would be silly to be offended, since they're not real).

If you think I'm dumb enough to protest conflict in a story, you must not have read anything I've said: I am not calling out behavior because it was "morally questionable" (???). I'm not saying it should have been handled more dramatically because I'm some sort of fan of Feral or something (???). I am calling out Ventress' complete lack of reaction, which I felt was narratively out-of-sync with the place her character was at in the overarching story of The Clone Wars. It would also have been uncharacteristic if she did something to save him, but having no reaction at all makes no sense when, just a little while later, she starts being merciful, rescuing a little girl who she was paid to transport (and on top of that, when she manages to get her cut of the bounty anyway, she gives it back to the other bounty hunters). I get that it hits home for her because it's a little girl taken away from her family, but this whole thing is about her starting a different arc, and the way the Nightsister ceremony went down makes that arc begin too abruptly (only after Massacre; it's an instant shift). Like I said in my last post, it's a missed opportunity at best.

Ugh... come on. THE JAMES BOND THING WAS ABOUT HOW THE STORY IS WRITTEN. Not the character's moral behavior! It's exactly like this situation, because as you said, this is a guy who sleeps with random women, but writing in (for no reason at all) that she was a sex slave takes it over a line that makes it weird and uncharacteristic for a character who ultimately does have deeper morals. In this case, YES, Ventress kills people who get in her way, but this whole arc is supposed to set off the process of her, not stopping killing, but becoming more honorable and less fueled by hatred. So, to me, failing to use the murder of an innocent slave as further emotional catalyst in Ventress' journey is a slight narrative misfire.

It's not even a big deal, dude; I gave the episode a 7. But you continue haranguing me while, ironically, all this time I've been carefully trying to make my point without insulting you and your particular brand of fandom. I enjoy it differently, and I'm sure you can deal with that, so you're not going to win any arguments by telling me how cool the CIS is. I don't care. That has nothing to do with the quality of the story. I don't care about fan loyalty groups, because to me, defending them as if you're one of them or as if they're real is childish. I only say that once and for all, because you seem to think it's insane that I don't operate the same way, and it's not; it's totally normal. I care about the quality of the story and the minutia of the universe, but I don't endorse or oppose the actions of the characters on some sort of moral grounds or choose one over another to align myself with, because they're fictional. It's an exploration of themes, and it's really friggin' weird to act like I'm somehow the weird one because I watch shows and films and read books because I'm interested in the themes they explore. Just... stop. Enjoy it however you want to enjoy it, but stop trying to convince me. Remember, I didn't pick this fight.

 

Yeah, Ventress making Savage kill Feral wasn't very reasonable in light of how she had been treated only an episode before, and I did see that as a bit much, a bit out of place. Then again, people who are full of anger and hate and have been abused tend to pass on that abuse, and this was the first time she had someone under her thumb. She treats Savage just as harshly as Dooku treated her, if not more.

So I like it as a continuation of the cycle of abuse.

 

Yup, this is how I have to kinda blur my vision and explain it to myself in order to be OK with it when I watch the episode. I would have even believed it to be intentional if there had been even the slightest glimmer of conflict in her eyes when it happened, but she was just kinda glazed over, almost "business as usual," and that's what irks me.

I'm thinking maybe Katie Lucas just said, "Then she just makes him kill the guy, like, blah, cuz... um... girl power!" and somebody else probably tried to say, "Well, would she really do that at this point in her life?" and she said, "Yeah she would, cuz girl power! Right dad?" and that's that.

 

I believe it, her vagina makes me do a lot of things.

I'll be here all week creeping you out. Maybe. Probably. I'll show up for Witches of the Mist.

 

It's not because she's a girl, it's because she's languishing in the 90's idea of "girl power" and doesn't necessarily have the clearest/most contemporary/most effective approach to feminism. She talked about how she listened to Courtney Love and stuff while writing the arc, and I get the impression she thinks that's a really important part of feminism.

I'm way pro-gender equality, and I happen to think sexism is the most widespread and misunderstood form of prejudice out there... but, so much so, that I think it's gonna take more than the good intentions of privileged grunge fans to fix it. I kinda think her idea of it (that is, weird, aggressive, misguided dominance fantasies) could do more harm than good.

 

Well, I'd say, maybe not any more than anything else Katie Lucas writes... but it is kinda her whole thing.

 

Yeah, she was preeeetty direct about it in the featurettes, seemed to be making a deliberate point with the arc overall. But narratively, she facilitated some pretty great things, so she did her job well. It just certain moments that I became conscious of after watching the behind the scenes stuff.

 

This was another really good episode and it very nicely continued the Nightsister arc with a nice plot that in a way can be seen mostly as build-up to the final part of this arc. The introduction of Savage Opress is definitely memorable; the concept of having one from Maul's people, even a relative, step up and become a new, deadly character was really good and they handled it really well and Savage was a promising character (but it felt like he wasn't as important anymore when Maul was reintroduced and he was reduced to a side character). This episode has some really good action sequences with the competition's last part (Ventress vs. Savage on and among the moving pillars) and the initiation test for Savage with his assault on Devaron (him plowing through the battle droids and the clones to finally deal with the two Jedi was pretty badass); other things I really liked was the intro of Savage's awesome theme music and the fact that Talzin offered Dooku blackroot to drink (Willow, anyone?).

8/10

 

I don't know, I watched this episode and didn't exactly see it as brutality for the sake of brutality. It seemed to be consistent with how the Nightsisters treated the males as tools, not people. The competition involved Ventress killing everyone to narrow the field down to find the male that, in essence, put up the best fight. She brings him home to Talzin who touches him like you would a new sports car and calls him a "perfect specimen". They do their magic to him, which involved heavy brainwashing, and then needed to test to see if the brainwashing "stuck". What better way then to have him strangle his brother? How else to trust him with a mission as big as taking out Dooku? Why would Ventress care about Feral's death... he isn't a person to her, just a tool like Savage.

 

I've been over this a million times, but she'd be over it because that was the same kind of behavior which left her abandoned, and this arc is leading up to her breaking that cycle as a bounty hunter. Again, she wouldn't stop him from dying, but if they wanted the transition to be logical, there should have been a glimmer of uncertainty in her eye.

If you look at it as binary ("Today Ventress is a ceremonial darksider..." / "Today she's a merciful bounty hunter"), then my complaint wouldn't make sense to you, but I'm a writer, and I'm sorry, but character development is not binary. It's the most gradual thing there could ever be, and unfortunately, TCW is not good at gradual character development. It's almost like all the nuance occurs offscreen between episodes, and you just have to imagine it.

It doesn't really bother me, because I don't expect top-notch writing from the show... but sometimes there are simple moments which could be used to much better effect.