[Discussion/Debate] Audio dramas the new fan films?

Not really a question, more of a thought I had the other day. Seems like more and more people are taking a serious interest in audio-drams now; now only in listening but in production as well. Why do you think that is?

From my point of view: I've always loved old-time radion audio dramas, and I grew up int eh 80s so I got to hear the original SW NPR dramas when they were firston the air. I've collected Shadow tape sets (though unfortunately packed away now) and I bought the Dark Horse comic book audio adapts for Dark Empire and Tales of the Jedi when they came out. So for it more of a "theater of the mind" sort of thing (I forget who created the actual quote there). A way for me to use my imagination more than I did with with movies and it was something to listen too late at night when I needed to relax.

From the production side: I can see where the cost is significantly (sic) lower than say the costs of producing a indie/fan-film. Though comparatively there is roughly amoung the same amount of post-production work that needs to be done; though not the same sort of post-production work mind you. And I'm certain that both a equally frustrating, with their own challenges, from teh direction and writing standpoints.

So, which do you think will have the longest "shelf life"? Movies or audio? In 10 years time which one will fans be doing and which one will be a fond memory?

 

Lyart_Triath...are you sure that wasn't a question?

If it's a statement, then I have to disagree with you. If it's a question, then I'll have to use a sidestep answer in this case.

I think there is very weak interest in fan audio dramas. So far with the announcements of a handful of them there's been very little reaction outside the folks actually creating or participating in them. I can only wonder how many people download Stormtrooper Bob from the FanFilms.Com site during the course of a month versus perhaps a film like When Senators Attack. I'd love to see the stats.

Now, I will admit that there has been some interest in the audio drama format since the announcement of Second Strike and Rise of Nobility. Perhaps it only took a few people to get the ball rolling to inspire others. But, I hardly consider it "more and more".

I've also listened to the original NPR series. They are very enjoyable and have inspired me quite a bit. Now, whether or not they are inspiring to any of the regular fan film community, I can't answer.

Yes, costs are lower. And yes production work is quite different (although it shouldn't be much different, but you see how little time people spend on audio in their fan films). And yes, both are equally challenging.

As to which will have a longer shelf-life? I'd imagine movies, however that's all dependent on the end product. If you put out a piece of crap more than likely nobody is going to care in 10 years no matter what format it is. If you put the same effort into an audio drama as they did, for example, in Troops, well who knows. But I'm sure if people asked which you'd prefer...watch Empire Strikes back on a tv, or listen to it in the car...I'm sure most would pick the tv first.

Keith

 

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. By "More and more" I mean audio dramas in broader sense of the medium as a whole, not just Sw fan productions. It seems that there as been a recent upswing in the interest in radio drama as a whole. Sorry I wasn't more clear, it's my fault.

And it was a thought meant for debat for Just something I do from time to time to get other people's opinions.

 

Well, I can't speak for non-SW genres, but I'll see what I can do on that note.

I honestly don't think fan audio dramas will end up having the same fan following or impact as fan films. This isn't a time in world culture that relishes pure audio. Even music releases can't seem to get a lot of mainstream attention in some areas unless they're accompanied by flashy videos on MTV, VH1, BET, or what have you. Imagine how much or how little attention Eminem's "Lose Yourself" might have gotten if there hadn't been an entire movie based around the storyline (or vice versa) of the song.

However, I think it will continue to grow as an outlet for frustrated storytellers, like myself, who look at fan productions these days and see them as interminable fluff. It has been so long since I saw a fan film with a story that truly captivated me, particularly in an in-universe story, that I can't even recall what it was. It MIGHT have been Reciprocity.

Many, if not most, fan film makers (and I know I'll get flack for this) are NOT storytellers. A film maker, in and of itself, is not a storyteller. JRR Tolkien was a storyteller. Very visual directors like David Fincher are storytellers. But most fan film makers are most assuredly NOT storytellers.

Why? Becuase there's a difference between telling a tale and producing it for release and actually crafting a true work of developed, intelligent fiction.

Look back at the big fan films of the last year or so. The Formula, which will hit its one year anniversary on Sunday, *was* storytelling. It had a point, and a message, and characters that were more than one-dimensional.

I would say that maybe only half of the TFN Fan Films entries would be considered true storytelling, if that many. In fact, perhaps one of the top three for REAL storytelling never even really got much of a following. Go back and watch Sacrifices again. THAT is storytelling.

Audio productions give creators who might not have access to much equipment, who prefer to focus on the storytelling aspect, to engage in a medium where they MUST utilize particularly well crafted storytelling in order to create a successful product. There are plenty of fan films out there that have gotten attention for effects, but their stories have been marginal or even non-existant.

For those of us who do get into audio drama production, it's a chance to truly tell a story that is multi-dimensional, if we actually put our hearts into it. They must be a cut above the rest in terms of storytelling, or their very nature will condemn them to obscruity.

It is that necessary effort, and necessary craftsmanship, that both help and harm the audio drama genre. For those who will utilize such craftsmanship, the products will be well done and stand on their own, but with so few out there who really want to be storytellers, rather than special effects hacks, I doubt that there will ever be enough audio drama makers out there to truly make a large dent in the fan community.

 

I have to say, I think a good Audio Drama would last longer because I love digging out old audiobooks and relistening to them. Despite my hearing loss, I love hearing things as much or more than seeing things, I recall audio pretty well, and I can get real addicted to a good record. So yeah, quality enters into it, but it's so much easier to listen to an audio drama on a CD than to look for, find, click, and watch a fanfilm on your computer.

Chris

 

I agree with you, Nathan.

Audio dramas a great way for good stories to get realized, if those involved don't have the skill/resources/people/whatever to churn out an entire film. The reason writing has historically been so incredibly popular is that it's so inexpensive -- incredible worlds, engaging characters, impossible plots, etc. can be fleshed out and made real through pens, paper, and talent.

I'm being a little too general, because fan films, too, (hopefully) start out on paper, but I think audio dramas are a much more natural extension of the written word. Since we can't literally SEE what's going on when we write a story, we clarify and help the audience visualize through language. The same exact situation applies to audio dramas. Can't literally see, therefore rely on description. So it's a great alternative that has sprung up lately as a pretty interesting, yet inevitable, mutation of the fan "film" niche.

 

I'm finally speaking from experience and I'll state this...Audio Dramas can be every bit as daunting as making Fanfilms.
It's tough no doubt about it...but is there a mainstream audience?
Can't honestly say, only time will tell.

 

ATX: So when do those of us who played roles for Resurrection get to hear the final product?

 

Okay here's the next level to the eqaution: Give that, as ATX says, fan-audio is as daunting as fan-film, if you had to choice-- whether you made a film, planning one, or jsut a fan with an ideal but no plans-- between the two mediums which would you rather put the time and effort into producing; given that both are equal in terms of pain-in-the butt headaches? And for those that have done both medium, which one will you stick with? Or would you work in both mediums?

Also, since some, not all, fan-film makers ultimately go own to try their hand at original characters+/stories not related in the SW universe & sci-fi (ie low budget indie to use a term), would original audio dramas not related to SW or even sci-fi for that matter be something you would even give a passing thought too? And if so would you expect things to much different that say working on a fan production?

Me, I've debated about doing both fan and original audio dramas, simply because I love the storytelling aspect. But at the same time I would love to do indie film; since my original life plan involved film school. Which would I eventually put my time and limited resources into? I'm not really sure, to be honest, I love both mediums, but I really see audio being more freeing in terms of what I could do as a storyteller on a limiter-zero budget, versus a fan/indie film which would require a budget, even a limited one, of some amount. Not to mention in audio there are zero limitations on what you can do creatively, since you don't have to worry about effects or film/video editing.

Thanks to keithabbott & Nathan and all the others for their well thought out replies. That what I was hoping for when I started this thread Thanks you guys for kicking it off right.

 

Give that, as ATX says, fan-audio is as daunting as fan-film, if you had to choice-- whether you made a film, planning one, or jsut a fan with an ideal but no plans-- between the two mediums which would you rather put the time and effort into producing; given that both are equal in terms of pain-in-the butt headaches? And for those that have done both medium, which one will you stick with? Or would you work in both mediums?

Okay, on this one I have to disagree with ATX. Fan audio, at least comparing the projects I've worked on, is easier than fan film making, at least from my perspective. PTH was an interminable pain, from all accounts from the San Diego crew. Audio dramas can be as well, bur sometimes they are done very easily. For instance, I have Doubts Cast almost enirely complete, and I didn't even have it reworked as an audio script until a little over a week ago. I think an audio mixer with experience, or gaining experience, can finish the process much faster than any film maker can. There's just not as many variables to deal with.

As for the choice: Personally, I prefer audio because I can do much of it myself and have greater creative control over the final product. I needn't worry about resources, locations, and such, as much. As long as I have internet access, WaveLab, and a cast able to record decent sound files, I can create whatever my imagination desires.

Also, since some, not all, fan-film makers ultimately go own to try their hand at original characters+/stories not related in the SW universe & sci-fi (ie low budget indie to use a term), would original audio dramas not related to SW or even sci-fi for that matter be something you would even give a passing thought too? And if so would you expect things to much different that say working on a fan production?

I'd imagine it's something I might want to do, but the way audio is treated these days, you'd almost have to have a ready-made audience for the works. For instance, an original audio production from Chris Hanel without DLR or The Formula under his belt might not get much attention, but with his previous works, there's a ready-made audience for his further projects.

 

Can play in cars, walkman, or mp3 player.
Are completely reliant on the story.
Are secondarily reliant on the acting.
Cheaper.
Easier.
Require ***imagination***

I like listening to them at work. They keep me awake. I have listened to the Llama boys, ChronoRadio, Stormtrooper Bob, Second Strike so much that I have assimilated most of the jokes into my vernacular. I know lines from those shows more than I do the Star Wars movies. Many a road trip has been made listening to these shows, and I love them. I am looking forward to Rise Of Nobility, and if there are too many more, I think that an official Audio show thread should be made so everyone has one place to go to find out when the shows come out. To those who are making them, thanks, do more. And don't forget to make them quality. The performances are stripped bare, and the story MUST be strong.

 

I have to agree with DarkATX and disagree with Nathan. I know audio dramas can be just as daunting as films. Just ask the crew who put together the original sw audio dramas. That said, the reason I say it's just as daunting personally (mind you I have no experience in making films) is because any project you create can be a lot of work. You get what you put into it.

For example. On the outside, look at a picture like the Mona Lisa. You can think..it probably took awhile to do. Right? Now, think of the Mona Lisa being redone with the Pointalism method. Now THAT would be daunting. It would be the same picture, of course it wouldn't look exactly the same, but it would be just as tedious and difficult even in the same medium.

If I spent 3 years putting together an audio drama versus 1 year putting together a cheap lightsaber duel movie with audio...anyhow you can see where I'm going with this.

Video and audio are two different mediums. Sure videos typically have audio in them, but does that necessarily mean more work? or that it's harder to do? No it doesn't.

I have to admit spending 5 years in the music deparment at VCU gave me a lot of perspective on the art world. Of course, this is just my opinion...as we all have them.

Oh and I guess I should state since it was asked...I don't have any interest in producing a fan film. I like watching all the others, but I don't want to do one myself. Nor do I ever plan on doing another audio drama again. This is it for me, unless someone offers me money to stay in the field I'm done.

Keith

 

My opinion:

I like fan audio dramas as much as fanfilms, but I don't think of them as the "new" fanfilm. I've never tried to put an audio drama together myself, so I can't say anything about difficulty, but I love listening to them just as much as watching fanfilms. It doesn't mean one will replace the other or anything; I watch movies, but I still listen to classic radio shows on tape and CD.

 

I think that an official Audio show thread should be made so everyone has one place to go to find out when the shows come out.

One thing about TAC's forthcoming site is the inclusion of a specific Fan Audio forum, moderated by me and Chris Hanel. That'll be a good resource for us audio people.

I have to agree with DarkATX and disagree with Nathan . . . If I spent 3 years putting together an audio drama versus 1 year putting together a cheap lightsaber duel movie with audio...anyhow you can see where I'm going with this.

Okay, add the fairly obvious assumed caveat: We're talking about making COMPARABLE productions. I could make a totally b.s. fan film in a few minutes with a camcorder, my girl, and some see-through white clothes a la Padme, but that couldn't then be compared to Second Strike. We're talking about *comparable* productions. In *comparable* productions, fan films have a far greater range of responsibilities and requirement than do audio productions. If nothing else, fan films have to do their own audio track well (hopefully) and then deal with video editing.

 

Hey Nate, so what's stopping you from making that FanFilm? Slap a Prelude to Hope crawler on the front of it and say its finally done.

 

I think Nathan has a point on this one. The productions would have to be comparable (sic). Say an hour length audio vs hour length fan-film using the same script, adapted for the respective mediums mind you, then we could truly see the differences and similarities. Though you do have to admit each medium has it's own challenges and benefits to consider.

Here's another angle: acting. A bad actor on film can drag down the best fo scripts. But in audio can a great script overcome a flat uninteresting delivery? And which medium is more demanding, talent wise, for the actors themselves. Plus is it easier to direct a flesh and blood cast or easier to direct a cast via e-mails, IM, phone, etc...when you're working on a drama with parts of the cast scattered to the four corners of the world?

 

In theory, yes they should be comparable. Realistically, I don't believe they are. Very little if any fan filmmakers are going to spend equal time on visuals as they do audio. I can most certainly guarantee that. If they did, nothing would ever get finished around here. That's why audio in most fan film productions suffers dramatically, because they are primarly focused on visual effects.

When doing an audio drama, at least from my perspective, you have to compensate for the lack of visuals. Which means even more time to devote to the project to bring life to the visuals that are missing. So if I were making a fan film, I sure wouldn't have to devote as much time explaining the world around the actors.

So from my perspective they are not comparable. They are two different entities which have their own difficulties. That's the way I see it anyhow.

Hopefully those reading this thread will be intrigued with the differences in we each see things. For that's what makes the world go around.

Keith

 

Hey Nate, so what's stopping you from making that FanFilm? Slap a Prelude to Hope crawler on the front of it and say its finally done.

Don't I wish. I don't even want to THINK about PTH after what Kris mentioned tonight on the phone. G'lord.

Say an hour length audio vs hour length fan-film using the same script, adapted for the respective mediums mind you, then we could truly see the differences and similarities. Though you do have to admit each medium has it's own challenges and benefits to consider.

Quite so, but on the production side, you're still left with less technical issues in dealing with audio rather than video.

But in audio can a great script overcome a flat uninteresting delivery?

Doubtful. It's possible, but the requirements placed on the voice actors is especially high. I'd note that even The Vorzyd Gambit, with its great effects, has been getting a lot of acting flack. Imagine if that had been pure audio...

And which medium is more demanding, talent wise, for the actors themselves. Plus is it easier to direct a flesh and blood cast or easier to direct a cast via e-mails, IM, phone, etc...when you're working on a drama with parts of the cast scattered to the four corners of the world?

The acting depends on whether your cast is very good at physical acting or verbalization. Depends on your cast entirely.

As for directing, it's actually easier, I think, to direct audio. You aren't dealing with interpretations all the time. You make one director's recording and that's it. That's the target intonation and emoting.

 

On the directing front:

I remember, and it's been a while so I apologize for not having the source on hand, reading a usenet post from a guy in the south-east wo was doing audio adapts of classic novels. Parts of his cast were on the west coast, he, of course, was on the east. What he would do sometimes is have a conference/three-way call with some of his actors going over the lines repeatedly with them on the phone till they got the tone and emotion he wanted. Then he would record a dry run of the phone conversation and send a copy to the actors. That way when they actually went to record their lines they had a "audio storyboard" to work from that allowed them to play of each other as if they were in the studio. He/She said it resulted in a better end product. I found it to be a novel approach to the problem.

On the acting front:

I believe that if the story is strong enough it can overcome some flat acting. It can't, say, overcome someone reading their lines like they're reading the drive thru menu at Deny's or someone whose really overlly cheerful-- the audio version of someone giggleing everytime you put a camera on them.

On the tech front:

With fan-film if have the option of using one of several takes-- hopefully. And it's could be said repair video damage (exspure, etc..) flaws in post is easier than repairing crappy audio. If the actor speaks to softly, to loud, feedback, static, bad mike, poor quality in general, can all make it a big headache to fix audio and if you need a retake it may take days to get the files recorded and sent. In comparison, post wise, which is more a headache, fan-audio or fan-film and which one seems to be more plagued by such headaches?

 

Well, I'd say audio dramas have a harder time with audio post, in that they have to be cleaner than films since that's all you have. However, by the same token, a video production would have not only audio to clean, but video. I'd bet that films have the hardest time overall.

 

Inability to make a commentary track sucks.

 

You could make a really small video track that shows the commentary in simple b+w text.



Rick McCallum loves you!

 

I'll say this about the audio dramas versus the fan films...

I thought when I made my fan film that I had crafted a nice little story, with a message and something new to say. Unfortunately, I didn't have the assets to really bring it to life the way I wanted to, either financially or cast and crew wise (as it was I drafted some visiting friends and basically "traded" them free theme park tickets if they'd be in the film...then drafted them.) As of right now, I have a ton of great fan film ideas and some good ideas for original short independent films (I think so anyway.) but there is just no way I can execute them. There is no one with the time or resources that can help me where I'm at, frankly, everybody my age has kids and a "real" jobs and "lives" and to be honest, crafting low-budget indy films is just not the way they want to spend their time. (FOOLS!)

If it wasn't for the fan-made audio dramas I'd pretty much have to completely give up on any interactive fan creativity. Sure I could write fan fiction, but I do that already, and it really isn't the same thing. I for one am very happy for the audio dramas...at least until I can figure out how to make my epic-trilogy in my basement with me playing every role...lol.

 

Rogue428, are you working on an audio drama? i visited your site but didn't see anything off-hand that looked like you were. Just curious.

 

You know what...in response to the lightsaber choreography and the 24 hour fan film competitions, et all, I think we should counter with an audio competition.

Perhaps the best 2 minute skit or drama competion. We could base the winners on a number of factors. Perhaps competitions like this could increase the awareness of sound quality in fan films and how to make everyone better in this realm.

Anyone think this is a good idea?
Keith