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Discussion Point #3: The Rebel Alliance (ROTS Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by dp4m, May 23, 2005.

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  1. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    We know now that Bria Tharen did NOT help form the Rebel Alliance (though she could have been one of the very first cell leaders, no problem). We know it was founded by a bunch of Senators, with a few of them remaining in the Senate, supporting Palpatine, in order to not foster too much suspicion on them.

    So I believe this jives with everything we've heard on the subject before:

    - Mon Mothma and Bail Organa are instrumental.
    - Garm bel Iblis is involved at least at the early stages.

    The new wrinkle is Padme. She's also one of the founders.

    Seriously, Leia's been in the Alliance since her early teen years and Luke was in it for 3.5 years from ANH onwards. I suppose it's possible that Bail instructed Mon Mothma to not say anything (or that Mon Mothma didn't know Leia's true identity as Padme's daughter) but one might think that there would have been *some* indication as to that pregnant Senator who died at roughly the same time the Alliance was formed and Leia could have put 2 + 2 = 4 together with her age... ;)
     
  2. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Actually, i think it works like this:

    -The senators start passive resistance/ setting up infrastructure
    -This leads into armed cells, such as the ones Mon Mothma starts
    -More Rebel cells pop up, such as Bria Tharen's group
    -Bail eventually decides to support such groups (which bria may have had some kind on input in through Winter)
    -Bail, Mon and Bel sign the Corellian Treaty and form the Rebel Alliance.
     
  3. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    -The senators start passive resistance/ setting up infrastructure
    -This leads into armed cells, such as the ones Mon Mothma starts
    -More Rebel cells pop up, such as Bria Tharen's group
    -Bail eventually decides to support such groups (which bria may have had some kind on input in through Winter)
    -Bail, Mon and Bel sign the Corellian Treaty and form the Rebel Alliance.


    I believe it was specifically Lucas who said the scenes cut involved "Padme helping to found the Rebel Alliance"...
     
  4. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Right, but from what i can tell, it's just talk of them forming "an organization".

    The actual Alliance isn't formed until the treaty.
     
  5. Cypher18

    Cypher18 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2001
    I believe she helped start an infrastructure to a resistance movement. In the book she helped get a petition signed by two thousand senators asking the Chancellor to step down, didn't she? And she specifically told Mon Mothma and Bail Organa to keep their names off the list.
     
  6. Leto II

    Leto II Jedi Padawan star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2000
    That's exactly how it flows: Senatorial dissent (see also Republic #68), the "Petition of the Two Thousand"; armed individual cells seeded throughout the galaxy; light skirmishes against the Empire gradually escalating more and more; the Emperor likewise stepping up his military buildup; leading to the Cantham House meetings and finally to the Corellian Treaty, circa 2 BSW4.

    I've presented essentially that same exact list/chronology many, many times recently over in 3SA. For the children.

    Here's one of the major "Rebellion scenes" from the flick as it appears in the screenplay...note that it falls directly prior to the "We do not grant you the rank of Master" sequence:

    81 INT. CORUSCANT - BAIL ORGANA'S OFFICE - DAY

    PADMÉ, BAIL ORGANA, and SENATORS MON MOTHMA, FANG ZAR, TERR TANEEL, and GIDDEAN DANU sit in Senator Organa's office.

    BAIL ORGANA
    Now that he has control of the Jedi
    Council, the Chancellor has appointed
    Governors to oversee all star systems
    in the Republic.

    FANG ZAR
    When did this happen?

    BAIL ORGANA
    The decree was posted this morning.

    PADMÉ
    Do you think he will dismantle the
    Senate?

    MON MOTHMA
    Why bother? As a practical matter, the
    Senate no longer exists.

    GIDDEAN DANU
    The constitution is in shreds. Amendment
    after amendment...executive directives,
    sometimes a dozen in one day.

    BAIL ORGANA
    We can't let a thousand years of democracy
    disappear without a fight.

    EVERYONE looks at each other, a little worried at the implications of what was just said.

    TERR TANEEL
    What are you suggesting?

    BAIL ORGANA
    I apologize. I didn't mean to sound like
    a Separatist.

    MON MOTHMA
    We are not Separatists trying to leave
    the Republic. We are loyalists, trying
    to preserve democracy in the Republic.

    BAIL ORGANA
    It has become increasingly clear to
    many of us that the Chancellor has become
    an enemy of democracy.

    PADMÉ
    I can't believe it has come to this!
    Chancellor Palpatine is one of my oldest
    advisors. He served as my Ambassador
    when I was Queen.

    GIDDEAN DANU
    Senator, I fear you underestimate the
    amount of corruption that has taken
    hold in the Senate.

    MON MOTHMA
    The Chancellor has played the Senators
    well. They know where the power lies,
    and they will do whatever it takes to
    share in it. Palpatine has become a
    dictator, and we have helped him to
    do it.

    BAIL ORGANA
    We can't sit around debating any longer,
    we have decided to do what we can to
    stop it. Senator Mon Mothma and I are
    putting together an organization...

    PADMÉ
    Say no more. Senator Organa. I understand.
    At this point, it's better to leave
    some things unsaid.

    BAIL ORGANA
    Yes. I agree and we must not discuss
    this with anyone, without everyone in
    this group agreeing.

    MON MOTHMA
    That means those closest to you...even
    family...no one can be told.

    They ALL nod their heads. PADMÉ considers this for a moment.

    PADMÉ
    Agreed.

    ...Fang Zar has his devoted groupies too, dammit.

    Then, a bit later (immediately before the "wild Bantha chase" Venator scene), there's this one:

    95 INT. CORUSCANT - PADMÉ'S APARTMENT - DAY

    PADMÉ, MON MOTHMA, and five other Senators (BANA BREEMU, FANG ZAR. CHI EEKWAY, GIDDEAN DANU, BAIL ORGANA) sit in Padmé's living room. C-3PO serves drinks to the guests.

    PADMÉ
    We cannot let this turn into another
    war.

    BAIL ORGANA
    Absolutely, that is the last thing we
    want.

    MON MOTHMA
    We are hoping to form an alliance in
    the Senate to stop the Chancellor from
    further subverting the constitution,
    that's all.

    PADMÉ
    I know a Jedi I feel it would be wise
    to consult.

    BANA BREEMU
    That would be dangerous.

    MON MOTHMA
    We don't know where the Jedi stand in
    all this.

     
  7. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    I think we're also going to see a lot of those senators worked into the Rebel backstory some- if only to help manage the cells actually run by Organa or Mothma.

    I'd kill for Mon Mothma: the novel, but alas...
     
  8. jawajames

    jawajames Former RSA // stawars.com contributor star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2002
    while it is clear that Padme is present in those meetings, she doesn't seem to be that important to the effort -- mostly Bail and Mon Mothma.. she seemed to still be on the fence... she certainly opposes palpatine's moves, but doesn't seem clear to want to actively plot against this...
     
  9. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    I thought the book made it more clear that, when push finally came to shove, she helped start the Rebel Alliance...
     
  10. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    Well, I think that Padme being an earlier proponet of a "alliance" against Palpatine meshes fine with the EU's sotry of the founding of the Rebel Alliance. Granted Padme had nothing to do with the final official establishment of the Alliance to Restore the Republic, but she obviously was one of its earliest framers who undoubtedly laid some of the groundwork for this future organization.

    Thats my take on it. :)

    --Adm. Nick
     
  11. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Also keep in mind that Bail Organa did not join the official Rebellion until after the Ghorman Massacre. Before that point, he publically opposed Mothma on issues but clandestinely used his commitee positions to funnel cash to the Rebellion's cells.
     
  12. Leto II

    Leto II Jedi Padawan star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2000
    Technically, Bail was in the Rebellion right straight from the git-go (as the movie implies), although I think it was the 1987 Rebel Alliance Sourcebook printing that established his direct full-time involvement prior to Ghorman. And there were his other Rebel operations as far back as 17 BSW4, such his establishment of Isis, which became major Alliance safeworld.

    He kept his involvement off the radar screen for years, though, which is where I think a reconciliation between certain sources might be necessary.

    Padmé's role as one of the "founding framers": Absolutely. Whether she ever planned on formally joining Bail's and Mon's (and Garm's, per Stover) little junta-group we'll never know, but if it weren't for her input during those initial movie sessions (presaging the Cantham House klatsches), the shaping of Bail's thoughts regarding the Jedi would have ended up in a very different place. In fact, it was this that caused him to make his little trip to the Temple in time to say howdy to little Jukassa-san; the combination of all the above then sent him headlong into space in search of Yoda and Obi-Wan.

    Without Padmé -- otherwise Little Miss Enabler -- the Alliance to Restore the Republic might very well have taken longer to coalesce as we know it from the original trilogy.


    ========


    ...Oh, and to anyone who caught the "Republic #68" gaffe above? My bad. It was Republic #61, which caused a blonde-moment vaporlock brain-fart when I first typed it up.

    Or something.
     
  13. Ozzel

    Ozzel TF.N Foreign Book Covers Staff star 5 VIP

    Registered:
    May 14, 2001
    When did Alderaan give up their weapons, again? And where was that mentioned? The Han Solo trilogy?
     
  14. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I'm going from the TOS bio, which points out that though he was afraid of Palpatine's excesses, the thought of open rebellion disgusted him--at least until Ghorman, where he realized that resistence from inside the system would fail.
     
  15. Leto II

    Leto II Jedi Padawan star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2000
    Right, I see what you're saying, but those Official Site bios are notorious for being incomplete, even in the face of more comprehensive evidence (those RPG supplements, the Crispin Han Solo books, et al).

    Just going by the movie and novel alone (and the "[We're] putting together an organization" scene), it seems clear that Bail jumped right in feet-first, and which would now supersede the OS bio. Although perhaps there was a period in which he withdrew from the movement -- or at least temporarily.

    I can certainly see both co-existing, though, with a bit of the Patented ContinuitySpackle?.
     
  16. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    Leto:

    The notion that Bail pulls back for a bit after seeing how serious the others like Mothma are about actual rebellion is a good and workable idea. Perhaps he decides that he has a better chance working through the Imperial Senate at some point after ROTS. Afterall, Alderaan becomes a pacifist world after the Clone Wars, so maybe the views of his worlds people cause him to pull back a bit.

    That, or Bail is always a supporter for rebellion but he puts on his "disagreement" with Mothma for the sake of his world's people, who expect him to be a pacifist.

    --Adm. Nick
     
  17. NJOfan215

    NJOfan215 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    i think bail got the ball rolling, but tooka big step back once he became leia's father. He knew that if the emporer ever found out what she was, it would severly hurt the chances of the jedi order coming back. I think bail basicly played the good little political figure while he was in the senate, this way palpatine wouldn't have a real need to spy on him. Once he was out of office and back on alderaan, i think he got more involved since he was away from the capital.
     
  18. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Yeah, caring for one of the last known Force-sensitive people changed his priorities for a while.
     
  19. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    I agree, I think Bail got coopted into the children of Skywalker plot which made it alltogeather too risky to be a central member of the Rebellion.

    On the other hand I do not think that the Rebellion starting off involved violence. It is telling to note that the opening crawl of ANH speaks of the first victory of the rebellion. It seems hard to believe they could manage to hold a twenty year armed insurgency without a single notable victory without imploding.
     
  20. NJOfan215

    NJOfan215 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    rebellion doesn't = armed rebellion. Most of those 20 years could've been filled with political rebellion, sabotage, and some small skirmishes.
     
  21. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Political would be most likely, cell setting up individually of course but first realize the massive difference between the RotS Senate and the ANH one.

    From the overwhelming cheers for the Emperor to "the rebellion will continue to gain support."

    Obviously as the Senate grew less and less powerful it became more and more a focus of discontent.
     
  22. NJOfan215

    NJOfan215 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    yeah i agree.
     
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