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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Disney, Star Wars and the "Industry".

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Ganger, Dec 20, 2013.

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  1. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    True, the violence was depicted in a rather detached manner. Maybe like a nature documentary showing a lion killing a gazelle, but even those are often more emotional than the strangulation of the rebel officer.

    But this cool, detached style actually amps the violence for me because it somehow feels more real.
     
    TKT likes this.
  2. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

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    Jul 22, 2004

    The original Star Wars has dark moments, but it absolutely is not an overall dark film.
     
  3. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    No, it's not overall dark, but it is at least as dark as Empire.
     
  4. Ganger

    Ganger Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 9, 1999
    I disagree.

    Dark elements (uncles murdered, planet destroyed,etc.) don't particularly mean dark story.

    Dark revelations and inconclusive downer ending make ESB a much darker film in tone.
     
  5. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    Why are the darkest parts of a saga always considered the best?
     
  6. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    Cold blooded torture that invades the personal sphere and the charred remains of nice innocent farmers give me the chills, as well as Tarkin's detached amusement when he gives the order to destroy Alderaan.

    I love Empire, but the revelation and Han's carbonite freezing don't make it darker for me than ANH.

    @ jedijax

    I don't know. Empire is not my favorite because it is the darkest.
     
  7. Pfluegermeister

    Pfluegermeister Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 30, 2003
    That's to say that you'd prefer more clinical violence, as opposed to sadistic and/or glorified violence. And that's usually what we get from the Saga; Anakin's burning was particularly horrid because it represented a character's comeuppance - in other words, the story and the situation required that the violence be up-close and personal. But if that kind of scene is to happen again, the story has to build to that and the situation has to require it to provide a satisfactory resolution. Right now, I just can't see it happening - but then I don't know anything more about the plot than you do, so I can't see anything else happening yet either...
     
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  8. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    I think the darkness of ESB came from the moodiness, the impending gloom that the heroes were heading into something dangerous all the time and, as we all know, the music of Williams. The ESB score was just gloomier and moodier than the upbeat ANH score.

    Lucas also made use of color schemes in ESB (white on Hoth, Green/Brown on Dagabah, oranges and reds on Bespin which got darker as the heroes were in more and more trouble). Everything seemed deliberate. This, along with the more introspective look at the Force and the mysterious part of what would and could happen made it more intellectually thought provoking.

    Disney can allow for the ST to be moody like that, even with the first movie. It can serve to be moody while being the action adventure for the younger audiences. Pirates of the Caribbean 1 was able to execute it.

    But yeah, the line will have to be drawn in some way. A mix would be nice and Abrams executed it very well with Trek '09. Stories that are too dark and too gloomy don't seem to mix well with Disney store merchandise. But at the same time, Avengers, as much as it is praised, really did make the warring faction more comical.

    You'd think that Disney would love to capitalize on using Vader in some way. But Vader has become more of a clown at the circus than the serious villain he is. After all, Anakin murdered children in ROTS and now Vader is the mascot for Disney's SW to, well, kids. How do you balance that?
     
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  9. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    He is still incredibly popular, winning all kinds of votes for best villain of ever and so on. All Disney has to do is show him as the badass we know him to be.

    And by the way, if a character is liked by kids that is not a bad thing.
     
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  10. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 31, 2013
    I think people often use the term 'dark' to refer to a multitude of things... be it thematic, narrative or just lighting/cinematography. The frustrating thing for me is that sometimes the term 'dark' is used as shorthand for more 'intelligent' or more adult themed - which often misses the point, or imbues films with qualities that are not necessarily there. As others have pointed out, TESB is certainly more sombre in tone..., it's certainly more lavish in terms of production, but I don't think it's any more intelligent or grown up than ANH (although obviously ANH is a tad more straight forward in terms of plot and structure).
     
  11. Sandtrooper92

    Sandtrooper92 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jul 31, 2013
    I don't think Avengers should be mentioned in the same sentence as Star Wars. Just because many people like comic books and Star Wars, doesn't make the movies even remotely comparable. Avengers was not a good movie in any sense that I saw. Of course maybe the ending was decent, but I had already turned that garbage off and so I missed it.

    It would be interesting to explore the characteristics of the two genres and why both appeal to some people, but for me really it boils down to this: Star Wars is a collection of 3-6 of the most interesting, exciting adventure stories ever, while comic books and the movies derived thereof are drivel.
     
  12. Beezer

    Beezer Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 5, 2013
    Disney is best known for generally making cartoons/animated/family movies. That is not a genre that leads to violence. However, in those Disney movies were violence was appropriate, they've never shied away from an appropriate level. Pirates of the Carribbean deserves its PG-13 rating.
     
  13. Pfluegermeister

    Pfluegermeister Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 30, 2003
    Disney ponied up to make The Lone Ranger, and that movie had a man cutting another man's heart out and EATING IT. This perception that Disney doesn't have the stones for violence is based on reputation, not fact.
     
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  14. Six

    Six Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jan 9, 2014
    I like JJ Abrams, but he wasn't my first choice for Star Wars. If they end up doing the rotating directors chair like the OT, I'd really like to see Brad Bird's take on Star Wars
     
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  15. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008
    What kind of badass? As a villain? A hero? An anti-hero? And how is Disney supposed to bring back Vader, the badass? In promotions for the saga? The company can't do that in upcoming movies . . . unless you're talking about the early years of Darth Vader - post-ROTS.

    And why does Vader have to be considered the best villain? What's wrong with Palpatine, who was a lot worse? Even Tarkin was worse than Vader. I never understood this need to keep Vader's image fixed as the best villain of the saga.
     
  16. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    The most popular version of the character is the armored villain we saw in the OT.

    This villain will feature in tv-specials and probably also spinoffs. He might feature in VII in form of flashback or ghosting, but that is more speculative.

    He is the most popular and iconic villain. For me he is the best villain, not because of greater "evulness", but because he is a more fascinating character. This is a matter of personal taste however.
     
  17. obi_kenobi_24

    obi_kenobi_24 Force Ghost star 4

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    Aug 17, 2003
    Disney said they wanted to for all intense and purposes to copy the MCU model........and that model since Avengers has gotten more and more about Lighthearted Joke Making with one liners. Even the supposed depressing times in those films, like when Thors mom died, didnt quite feel like it had enough umph(Will Give credit to the subtle way they showed loki's grief through the state of his cell) ....Thats where my fear comes in about that. That film should of definitely felt darker then it turned out......Thors mom was dead, Who the hell knows where Odin is/if hes alive, and Loki has the Throne again......yet the first thing that comes to my mind about it is all the one-liners and joke making.

    That works for Tony Stark and Iron Man because RDJ just has a special gift to pull that off.....but I hope Disney isnt saying/thinking they should be doing that with all of their characters.

    Part of the reason why I loved star wars was that balance there between space fantasy thrill ride and seeing how the characters made and dealt with the choices/consequences of a galaxy wide war.

    I do fear disney is going to shy away from the questions SW has been known to ask its audiences.....like:

    If you were Obi-Wan would you have trained Anakin(All your Jedi knowledge say no but your mentor requests this of you on his death bed)???
    If you were Anakin could/would you have slaughtered any or all the Tusken, Men,Women,and Children for what was done to your mother???
    If You were Luke could/would you stay with Yoda and complete the training for the greater good even if it meant sacrificing Han and Leia???
    If You were Luke, do you kill your father????

    How many endless hours have fans debated questions like that on the net and other places. The Star Wars Saga isnt just Black and White.

    To be fair the MCU is one long story and the rumors are that they'll have their ESB as well. So maybe Im just focusing too much on the place their story is currently at right now in terms of the overall arc. Im also pretty intrigued by Winter Soldier as it looks like it might be taking on the questions of privacy and gov surveillance
     
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  18. HankSolo

    HankSolo Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 3, 2012

    I think one of the reasons would be it brings out the most character development. We sort of find out what they are made of overcoming adversity.
     
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  19. Krueger

    Krueger Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 9, 2004
    TBH, I think things like that were more down to the direction than Disney. I felt the directing was very subpar on Thor 2 overall. It never felt grand or epic enough, which is weird, considering it didn’t look like a very cheap film. There was something that just felt “off” about that film.
     
  20. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    The whedonized dialogue crippled the movie. Two minutes after each death scene, Thor is joking around. Additionally, you could've replaced Portman with a slice of bread it wouldn't matter.

    I think the acting of Hemsworth was actually not half bad. He just couldn't do much with these lines.
     
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  21. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

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    Nov 12, 2012
    To be fair, the scene everyone remembers is Loki turning into Cap for a second and that's all Whedon and it's way awesome.
     
  22. Pfluegermeister

    Pfluegermeister Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 30, 2003
    But really, couldn't you say that about the majority of her roles at this point? Especially the role of you-know-who? :p
     
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  23. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    She wasn't half bad in black swan. She does pretty well in the role of crybaby.

    Anything else not so much.
     
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  24. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 31, 2013
    I think it's more to do with many a female lead (unless they are a superhero or the main protagonist) being under written/developed or playing second fiddle to the 'man' (and I don't say that to be 'right on')... I'm thinking of the recent Lois Lane, Gwen Stacy, Jane Foster, Uhura (who is now reduced to a whinny love interest for Spock) parts where they are written pretty thinly.
     
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  25. Pfluegermeister

    Pfluegermeister Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 30, 2003
    Black Swan was the specific reason I wrote "the majority of her roles" and not "ALL of them." No matter what else, I can't take that one from her.
     
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