ST Disney, Star Wars and the "Industry".

Clone Wars had four million viewers weekly, it brought in a lot of kids, who will be eager for more Star Wars, Last year, Star Wars merchandise was second only to the Disney Princess line.

 

Anyone questioning Abrams love of SW should just go watch Lost or at least google Lost SW references.


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Why are more films automatically a good thing? Is it a problem we never got a follow up to Casablanca or Doctor Strangelove? Were Jaws and Psycho incomplete without sequels? Can we not appreciate a movie and yet be content with the story ending when the credits roll.

A New Hope is, for me, one of the few great films that feels like it needs a sequel. Sure, there are plenty of great sequels (Aliens and Terminator 2 immediately spring to mind), but the originals don't feel incomplete with them. The destruction of the Death Star is satisfying, and I have no problem with it as an ending, but the journeys of the characters are not finished. We needed Empire and Jedi. They form one cohesive tale, despite each standing alone in terms of narrative structure.

But did we need any more films after that? I would say no. I don't begrudge the prequels in and of themselves, but I do despise the way they've warped and twisted a not-insignificant proportion of Star Wars fandom. Prequel bashers, let me say this to you: you are the drunk uncle at the party who keeps droning on about his ex at every opportunity, 14 years after she left him. Your pain was once legitimate, but now you're boring me to tears, and you seriously need to move on.

(Militant prequel defenders are only marginally better - their willingness to ignite more tedious arguments is slightly redeemed by their genuine enthusiasm for the subject matter.)

Before the Disney deal was announced, I felt Star Wars was in a great position. No matter what you thought of the 6 films proper, they were made now, and for all the ups and downs they are, overall, an enjoyable and massively influential set of films. The future of Star Wars lay with expanding the universe. Books, comics, games, TV shows. Taking the story beyond the original medium to explore it in new and innovative ways. I genuinely believe that the proposed live action SW series had the potential to be one of the most significant and impressive parts of the entire franchise, and quite possibly the proverbial flowers and chocolates that would win over the alienated adult fans again. But hey, who knows, it may have been terrible.

And now we have the Disney era of Star Wars, where have been told that there will be a film every year. Not a new trilogy. Not an adaptation of a set series of books. Not even "we'll make any good ideas we have into movies". No, every year we will make a film, regardless of who, or what, or why. At least when Lucas spoke of his myriad plans for future films, he set a limit on himself (albeit one that kept changing), and actually suggested what the films would cover, even if only vaguely (Obi-Wan's younger years, a film about the droids, etc).

I don't begrudge anyone their happiness at these upcoming movies. All I ask is that those of us who do not feel excited solely at a brand name on a cinema ticket be allowed to hold this opinion without labelled negative. I will judge every movie that comes on its own merits, but I don't think it unwise to predict diminishing returns on a mining the same ideas again and again.

 

Spot on, sir.

You have a way with words, this is exactly what I was saying but with a touch of eloquence and elegance I'll never have. I even agree with your bit about the drunk uncle. I'm that guy, although I'm the drunk uncle who has his **** together and only gets happy-drunk. PT bashing is an exercise in comedy for me.

I was away for the weekend and I have seen what I initially posted as a legitimate worry, has been referred to as ST Bashing, which is a severe misinterpretation of the point I was trying to make. How can we bash something that hasn't come out yet?

What I'm saying is that I'm really worried about the drive and decisions made so far. This is not saying that I think hiring Arndt, Abrams, Kasdan, Williams et al has been a bad decision, on the contrary. It's just that I feel skeptic towards the business plan for Star Wars and how it contradicts the movie universe Lucas talked to us about less than a decade ago.

I created this thread because I want BADLY for the ST to be a decent trilogy, so badly that I returned to these boards after 13 years!

Questioning the decision to make a film a year represents a lot of compromise and love for Star Wars as a fan, not an excuse for senseless bashing.

 

I know it's frowned upon by some but I don't "bash" like a senseless act of trolling. I express my opinion when talking about these movies, it's really hard (and pointless IMO) to avoid such a big subject. I try to do it with respect and humor, I really do. And for doing that I've been greeted with delightfully passive aggressive comebacks. No biggie.

 

You bring up a tremendous point, sir. I had a similar conversation with a friend of mine around the time of ROTS. My argument was that people who were older, IE grew up with the OT, for the most part didn't like the PT because when they saw the PT their perspective changed. They were older, [seemingly] wiser/smarter, more intellectual and to some extent jaded. And I believe you are absolutely proving my theory. Perhaps your reaction and absorption or enjoyment of the PT was changed because your perspective changed. I also think a lot of those who were adults at the time of TPM and had grown up OT didn't like the PT because it didn't capture those seminal emotions and feelings of your "first time." If you were to poll kids, and I have talked with a lot of younger fans (say in their 20's) who grew up with the PT -- they LOVE them. In fact some of them have told me personally they like them more than the "older ones."

Not to get into a this is better than that etc... but I always liked the PT (grew up with the OT) for what it was because I thought of it differently. Also I think I really understand the story -- the fall of a hero as well as a once great Republic is not popular. I'm sure I will like the ST just as well, and again, I'm expecting different although from the same universe. So even though I'm highly anticipating Episode 7 I know my perspective has changed and that E7 will affect me differently from when I saw ANH for the first time or even TPM as well.

 

Are we now really whining about getting new movies? You think the comic-, book- or videogame-crap we currently get is any better than the movies we'll get?

Don't like, don't watch.

If the PT wouldn't influence everything, I would also complain less about it. But there was just no way to escape its influence in recent years.

 

I really liked and agreed with this post until the last line.

Here's an idea for the MODS -- I think it would be really cool if they tweaked the "Like" system. It should be more like a game in that you should have the option of "Like" and "Dislike" then the percentage could give you a "Force rating" somewhere along the lines of Light Side and Dark Side.

 

I'm sure this'll be quite a generational experience for many. I've put myself in the shoes of Abrams a lot lately, thinking how I would approach this enormous challenge and it's quite tricky. To capture what ANH did in the 70s is absolutely impossible and even to attempt something like that would be wrong. You can't do something so radically different either. Besides, many of the "flaws" in the CT are now regarded as nostalgic elements that everybody absolutely adores and are part of pop culture. Today's audiences would perceive those minor "shortcomings" as unacceptable and the internet would explode in nerd rage.

There's little chance nowadays to be quirky or too simplistic with today's audiences, specially if you are treating a product that's not your own. If I was Abrams I would follow these priorities in order:

1. Continuation of the story. It has to make sense in the context of Star Wars, this is Episode VII, not a stand alone film, it can't be entirely new. You have to tie some ends to the CT.
2. Exciting. Focus on the adventure. Today's cinematic tools favor this element, use it to your advantage. Make it fresh and exciting by today's standards just how ANH did that by 70s standards.
3. Performances. Tell the story from a character perspective, not just for the sake of the story. Engage.
4. Visuals. Don't stray too much from what was designed in the CT. That IS Star Wars, use it to your advantage.

I wonder if the efforts Disney is doing through Abrams and Kasdan (and Arndt maybe) are focusing on a trilogy or on a stand alone film. We all know Lucas made a stand alone film in 1977 with vague purposes of sequels. He didn't come up with Vader being Luke's father up until February 1978.

Is it cool to treat this movie as a stand alone? Are they writing treatments for a trilogy? Are these supposed Lucas treatments thorough enough for others to follow? Should they do this? Are Abrams and Kasdan going to be involved with the following films or are we going to have new creative teams for each movie? Is Disney going to favor such preliminary work without having the results from the first movie in the ST?

Now that we're discussing the creative process with much more depth, how do you feel about Disney's role?

 

Well, you could've quoted me and wrote something like "I like that post except the last sentence, that was crap." or something.

 

First have you seen the PT? "Breaking the rules" and "ignoring what the audience wants" isn't always a good thing.

Second, how do you know/how can you say Avengers wasn't a passion project? Joss Whedon is/was VERY passionate about the subject matter. Thats why Avengers so well done and so well written and not just a lame spectical. Just because Avengers made a boat load of money doesn't mean is a only a cash cow and not a passion project, hell Star Wars makes boat loads of money, shouldn't you also call it a cash cow?

 

Yeah, I don't think we'll be adding a "Dislike" option anytime soon.

 

I only think of Avengers as "sorta okay, the last hour is a bit boring", but there is no doubt in my mind that Whedon was just as passionate as Lucas in his heyday. He really tried hard to do these characters justice and even the typical comic clichés (like the heroes fighting another at the first meeting) he as comic writer definitely loves and values.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion about a movie. Personally, I didn't find that PT all that good (I would say, on the whole, it was ok), but there are a lot of Star wars fans out there who defend it and disagree with me about that. But you can't argue that Avengers was a "paint by numbers" movie put out there just to make money with no passion behind it (and I know you're not Pevra). Movies only make THAT much money when people go to see it multiple times, and spectical with no substance, without passion doesn't attract multiple viewings.

 

No, it wasn't paint by numbers at all. For what it was, it was well made and intricately crafted. I may not enjoy it as much as others (partially because I don't have the attention for 75minutes long battles), but there is no doubt about the effort put into this movie.

 

At the risk of falling into the 'Basher/Gusher War' territory, it's a safe bet that 99.9% of people here have seen the PT and dare I say many people actually enjoy them as part of the Saga - 'The Audience' is so huge and diverse what with the films and the EU and all it's stripes, to know 'what the audience wants' (other than an enjoyable ride) is akin to asking the world what it wants for breakfast - its impossible to judge from one vocal group to another.​

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Treat the Star Wars property (as an audience member) like a buffet - picking and choosing what works for YOU, and hope that Disney doesn't just overwhelm us with variations of Mac and Cheese.​

 

A part of me is definitely cringing at the film a year plan. Overall, though, my view is that if Lucas can give up Star Wars, so can I. If the Disney era turns out to be defined by things like Han Solo Begins Part III and Darth Vader Rises, I'll simply depend on old Star Wars stuff to get the fix, and disregard the new yearly titles in the same manner that I disregard superhero films.

 

I have seen the PT and unfortunately (and respectfully) I don't like it at all. I think the overall premise and storyline was brilliant, I just have a strong opinion on how everything was executed.

Still, I admire Lucas's drive and passion in his projects. He's a genius at being a truly successful independent filmmaker. Even if I don't particularly enjoy his latest films, he deserved to make the films HE wanted to make and that's as Star Wars as you can get. Pure vision and passion. You can agree or disagree with this vision but that's how every movie in this series has been made. I respect that a lot, but that's just me.

I mentioned The Avengers as an example because everyone uses it as an analogy for the Disney scenario and as I mentioned before I don't think it applies all that well. Not only because of what I think of the film itself but how it has been handled as a product.

I'm not against Disney being in charge, I legitimately question it as a true fan because I want Episode VII to kick major butt. I certainly believe it has that potential.

 

I think 99.9% is high even for this site, but also remember this site is populated by hardcore star wars fans who going to be pre-disposed to like Star Wars even when the quality isn't great simply because its Star Wars (thats true of most fan bases).

I think you could say, pretty accurately, that MOST Star Wars fans didn't really want to see Anakin as a child, a character like Jar Jar, the set up for this time period in the OT ignored etc.....

 

Lucas is/was the biggest indy movie maker out there, but don't forget that he also runs a HUGE business that produces and liences EVERY possible product with Star Wars stamped on it. There is certainly criticism that he did likes like Maul and create Jango, then kill Jango and create Grevious, to have new action figures to sell. Was that his main motivation, did it play a role.......I dunno, I'm not Lucas. But don't cast him as visionary film maker doing just what he wants and ignore the business owner and gigantic money making machine that he created. The only reason he is even able to make Star Wars as an indy movie (ANH was a studio movie, don't forget) is because he turned his movie and characters into.......cash cows.

I think you're also missing the point many people raise with Avengers. Disney, largely, left Marvel alone and let them make the Superhero movie they wanted to make. There is no reason to believe they'll have their finger prints all over Star Wars and not let Kennedy and Abrams have that same freedom. Though Star Wars will be handled as a product the same way Avengers was, and Avengers was handled the same was the past Star Wars movies were.

 

Again, you're being totally subjective - my stepson LOVES Jar Jar, and Ewoks, and many of the things that as an 'older fan' I don't find as appealing, but I find joy in HIS happiness with them, and to be honest, a deeper appreciation of them too.

 

Nope. On average it was ~ 1.5 million. According to Hasbro, the TCW toy line was falling apart and the vintage items sold more than TCW. They initially predicted that season five would be TCW's last.

sluggo1313. I doubt Disney would let Star Wars slide past them. They'll be involved alongside Kennedy imo.

 

That's a load of crap, Chorus, and I'm calling you out on it. Right here. Right now.

I happen to BE a member of this "faction of fandom" you speak of, and I'm hardly going into the ST expecting it to suck just because it's not the OT, nor do I intend to hold anything against it on that basis. A hell of a lot of people have been using that non-argument against us for fourteen years now: "We'll never be satisfied, because all we want is to see the OT all over again and have our childhoods back." The very idea that we're THAT intransigent, that unreasonable, that separated from reality, frankly, insults me and a hell of a lot of other fans, many of whom are now WORKING on the ST. It also invalidates an entire segment of critics and GENUINE film scholars who feel similarly about the PT, because you've just reduced their educated and informed opinions to mere expressions of cynicism and/or the absurd need for a second childhood. This, from a mod (not even from another poster, mind you, but from a mod, who is supposed to know better), who in the same breath basically accuses other people of being closed-minded? Shame on you.

It's hardly asking for a second childhood to want the story of a film to make sense; it's far from asking to cure blindness to want the characters in a film to be likeable and fleshed-out, and not poorly-written and nonsensical caricatures of human beings; it's not asking to make cripples walk to want to be actually emotionally touched by the film I'm watching. I get those things from films of all genres, with all kinds of casts, made by all kinds of people, ALL THE TIME. But ask for that from a Star Wars film, and suddenly I'm being unreasonable? If that's true, then the majority of the people MAKING this new trilogy seem to be just as unreasonable, because they seem to want the same things. Are they asking for their childhood back, or are they just trying to make a GOOD MOVIE?

For that matter, have I EVER stated that I expected the ST to suck because it wasn't going to be enough like the OT? No indeed. In fact, I think you'll find a host of posts across this forum in which I not only voice my enthusiasm for the ST, but also caution other posters NOT to get their hopes up about it being the OT all over again, because it won't be; it CAN'T be. Disney/LFL have been VERY clear that this trilogy is going to be about the next generation of characters, exactly as it should be, and I stand firmly behind them in support of this intention. The Big Three will be there, most likely, but even if they're not, I look forward to being entertained and enchanted by the new characters; the old ones aren't even important to me in this. They're there to pass the torch, neither more nor less. So, exactly how desperate for my childhood does this make me? Go ahead and tell me, Dr. Phil, since you think you know so much about how our "faction of fandom" thinks.

And frankly, Chorus, if you want to get on our case with wildly inflammatory and inaccurate statements, I could very easily reciprocate by saying there is another "faction of fandom" trying to pass themselves off as therapists or amateur psychologists when they try to dismiss our legitimate opinions as symptoms of Peter Pan syndrome - simply because they don't and can't understand the difference between good and bad films, or good and bad taste, and expect us to play along and say something is good when it isn't just to make them feel better about themselves. It would be about as insulting a statement - and about as true - as your statement above; in other words, ALL of it insulting, and NONE of it true.

If you honestly want to debate us about our views, there's many, many ways to do it; but accusing us of metaphorically wanting to crawl back in our diapers is NOT the way. The former is simple intellectual discourse and is always welcome; the latter is flat-out offensive and completely unacceptable - and it's beneath you to engage in it.

 

Somewhat different, but I always go into a movie and expect it to suck.

After years of being let down in the theater, I've decided to forgo my expectations.

Despite the ST being Star Wars, I'm not being optimistic, especially after reading the news that's been circulating. No HD filming, JJ's go-to cinematographer is back, JJ taking over the writing, ect. I'm having flashbacks of watching Mission Impossible 3 or a JJ Trek movie. That's not a good thing.

I hope that I'm wrong, however. I want the ST to blow me away in 2015, but the news is holding me back. I'm not "pumped" at the moment.