Lit Disney Wars: Episode 7 and the EU (Spoiler Thread)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by TypoCelchu, Oct 30, 2012.

  1. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

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    [IMG]
  2. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    ^
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    Evidence that people are less into reading these days.
    Last edited by CooperTFN, Feb 2, 2013
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  3. blackmyron Force Ghost

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    And it's called the EU.
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  4. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Here's something that I'd be interested in the statistics of...

    How many of you who don't want a reboot prefer the OT?
    Vice versa, how many who do want a reboot prefer the PT?

    Because I wouldn't be surprised if there's a correlation there. As the ST won't be the OT. But nor will it be the PT.

    The ST will be for the Twilight generation.

    (On a separate point, the ST will also be for the era of equal opportunities, so just because Luke might have daughter in the film doesn't mean anyone should be ruling out Ben didn't exist... this is the twenty-first century, people, think gender change :p)
  5. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    The problem here is all those decisions were made by LFL! You may not like it, I may not like it but that's the way it is.

    The other element is that of course fans can be more consumerist in their outlook, but if a large amount of existing EU fans do that, it is questionable how many fans will actually switch their money over to the EU. As a fan? They'll buy it because that's the essence of being a fan. As a consumer? A far more critical evaluation is likely to be done: On what basis is this being sold to me? What evidence is there that the basis given is genuine? At that point, they look at the previous characterisation of the EU, note it's been changed, concludes it can be changed again, therefore the basis is false, therefore money is best spent on something more deserving! To counter this likely effect, a very effective marketing campaign aimed at new customers will be needed, until they too rumble the game for what it is.

    That said, I don't see the idea of the writers of the ST being limited by the EU to have any credibility, as to be limited by the EU the writers would have to know of it! I am highly sceptical that that is so.
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  6. instantdeath Force Ghost

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    Jul 22, 2010
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    Hard to say for me. I don't necessarily want a reboot, but I accept it's probably going to happen. As for the movies, I much prefer the OT; I won't pretend they're flawless, but they're much better made films than the prequels.
  7. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    The danger I see for people who prefer the OT is that the ST will just be another PT let down for them.

    If TPM proved how much culture had changed in twenty years (yay! sparkly special effects!) then I'm fully expecting the ST to show that, once again, two decades on culture has completely changed.

    Forget your Pod Race, this time we'll be seeing Luke Jr. competing in the Tatooine X Factor song contest. :p
    Indeed.

    TOR is one of the clearest examples of this, too. All that money, all that publicity, all that marketing hype... and it was still a flop. With all its attempts to reboot the era, to not be shackled by KOTOR and KOTOR2's stories, to not worry about the EU's existing take on the artistic designs or history of the Sith Empire that far in the past... it was still a flop.

    Apart from the hardcore fans who continue to play it because they love Star Wars and love the story, all those with just a casual interest have disappeared, gone back to WOW or switched to F2P. It is actually amazing how much EU talk I read in General Chat, not from completionist buffs like this forum, but just casual fans, with a fleeting interest, who enjoy arguing who was the greatest Sith Lord, Revan, Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Malgus.

    Those are the only people who still seem to be subscribers. The rest, like you say Ben, have just taken their money elsewhere.

    Like TOR, for all its money, for all its publicity, for all the posters with the logo STAR WARS across the top, roll the dice wrong and EP7 will just be another summer blockbuster and forgotten the moment the next blockbuster comes out. Does that mean it won't be a good film? No, it simply means this isn't the 80s anymore and kids have so many different activities today that they won't need to latch onto that one awesome movie the way they used to.

    This is where Disney have actually been sensible with Marvel though as they've realised Marvel's reliable fanbase are older, so the films have grown up and the stories have acknowledged what those older fans have been wanting to see on the big screen.
    Last edited by Zorrixor, Feb 3, 2013
  8. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 27, 2012
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    Actually, I think the opposite will be true. People who hated the PT will like the ST simply because it isn't George Lucas. All Ardnt and Abrams have to do is make it more OT in feel than PT and the fanboys will gush all over it.

    Is the podrace really symbolic of 90s culture? I mean, Lucas has been a racing fan most of his life. Podracing was just the latest iteration of that.

    The older fans want to see a good film. I know I do. That's what I want from Star Wars too. It's a very simple concept, but one that's very hard to execute.
    Last edited by Jedi Comedian, Feb 3, 2013
  9. TheYankee Force Ghost

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    I know it's become a fad to hate on the PT, but honestly, it's not even that the sequel trilogy has to have an original trilogy feel... It just has to not be as shallow and mind numbing to watch as the prequels. It's not about fanboyism. I don't know anyone who objectively thinks the PT was anywhere close to living up to the standard that was set years before.





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  10. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    But is he actually likely to do that? This isn't 1977. The new film isn't for our generation; it's for today's generation who have grown up watching TCW.

    Everyone dismisses the PT as universally reviled, but look at some of the recent threads where people have been asking the best way to introduce their kids to Star Wars, and you discover parents saying things like "their son prefers the PT" or "my daughter refuses to watch the OT because she hates Darth Vader". Because of things like that, I just don't see the ST being some OT renaissance or any any reboot that came with it being heralded by any of us as a new golden age.

    Popular culture influences popular culture, and today's kids obsess over Twilight and X-Factor and things very far removed from the OT's generation, or even now the PT's generation. Hence why we get things like:

    [IMG]

    And things like that are why any Post-ST stories won't be any less banal than Crystal Star or Glove of Darth Vader.
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  11. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 27, 2012
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    You're missing the point. It's not an issue of quality. We're talking about prejudices. Zorrixor was saying that OT fans will go in biased against the ST, because of their high standards. I'm saying they'll go in biased for it - they're so bitter about the prequels they're desperate for something positive to compare them to.

    Seriously, I can't count the number of times I've seen an awful alternate synopsis for the prequels online, with dozens of people commenting "damn bro, that would have been sooooooooooo much better than what we got".

    I'm skeptical that the PT and TCW are specially engineered to appeal to today's kids. I think kids like space battles and lightsabre fights and cool stuff. The ST can easily include "cool stuff" and hark back to the OT. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

    ANH and ESB sold masses of toys to kids in the 70s and 80s. There's no reason why the ST couldn't please kids and adults alike.
  12. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

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    The difference is that Twilight only appeals to teenage girls and 40-something housewives, the latter of which have mostly moved on to 50 Shades of Gray. I don't think we'll ever see a Star Wars movie that panders to that demographic (although we can always hope :p).

    I think most people who don't like the PT weren't disappointed because they were expecting a carbon copy of the OT, they were disappointed because they were expecting good movies.

    Well, naturally you'll find a few people who like the prequels on the prequel boards. :p

    I think people don't care so much about an OT renaissance, they'd just like a Star Wars renaissance in general. Or failing that, some movies that don't suck.

    Not sure how much I agree. I think Star Wars has always felt more influenced by the social and political climate than what's big in popular culture. *NSYNC didn't show up in Episode II, to my everlasting disappointment.
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  13. Obi-Wan21 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2002
    star 4
    If that was the case, DC's New 52 would have killed them. Consumers want the best possible content for their hard earned money. And, really, only the vocal few actually take into consideration any desires of canon and continuity, DC proved that much. Groups complain online, but their reboot was a massive success.

    But you're right, I doubt the screenwriters for the new film will know about the EU, another reason why I think the films will completely unravel some, if not all, of the EU canon. There's alot of story, and the smallest pebble could cause a chain reaction that could demolish a great deal of these novels. And at the end of the day, it won't bother new fans brought in, and it won't bother the fans who have grown dissatisfied with the current EU climate.

    It's really a win/win.

    I love Zahn's trilogy, and if that's removed, I still love it and my Thrawn and Mara action figures. Everyone will still have the content they love, it just might get branded "Infinities" now. And really, it doesn't hurt anyone.
  14. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    Zor, the words you're looking for here are "get off my lawn".
    Last edited by CooperTFN, Feb 3, 2013
  15. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    No, the words I'm looking for are: "Don't say nobody ever warned you Bendalina Skywalker would meet the love of his life by winning the Coruscant's Got Talent contest in Episode 9." :p

    On the other hand, you'll probably have more metal bikinis and stuff, as the world is obviously more liberal these days even in kids' shows (see Ahsoka's outfit) so at least you'll have that. :p
    While I expect that's probably true, my point wasn't so much that OT fans have "higher" standards but that their standards are simply different because they're from a different era, with different interests, different expectations, etc, etc.

    Whereas, come 2015, the fans who grow up with the ST, buy the toys, get given the LEGOs for Christmas, want the Episode 7 Video Game, etc, those fans will have a totally different set of interests, from taste in music, to fashion, to what's needed for an impressive fight scene, etc. That's the market where the merchandise is targeted at, so is the age group that needs to be focused on for a "good" film to be, well, good.
    I'm talking about the thread about a month ago here in Lit, where people were trying to get their kids into the stuff they liked, but finding their kids more interested in all the flashy adventures of Anakin and Ahsoka.

    The irony of ironies, though, is how Lucas's grand vision is probably what hurt the prequels due to them not tying into popular culture.

    In contrast, at the end of the day when the OT came out, it caught the public interest with a sense of nostalgia in the dying years of the space age, and it was thus very contemporary, rooted in popular culture, carrying the nostalgia of all the space adventures that had flooded the screens in the days before that, and so able to also connect with the parents of the kids who saw it back then as well, making it able to strike two birds with one stone. As for the prequels...? But for Lucas's all mighty vision, it had very little to ground it in either contemporary culture or nostalgia for the old days.

    But compare that to The Amazing Spider-Man, and it is a lot, lot more rooted in contemporary culture than the PT was. Sure, Marvel has always been designed as more throw-away, disposable pulp stories than Star Wars aimed to be, but if we're going on the assumption that they're throwing out the EU and rebooting, then like @Jedi_Ben said: Star Wars won't be about the big never-ending story anymore; it'll become like the video games, and reboot, reboot, reboot. TOR, for all its homages, is a reboot. How many times have we seen the Battle of Hoth depicted? Does LucasArts care? Not if it sells video games. Update the music a bit, give it a more contemporary feel, throw in a new protagonist who's more DmC Dante than Dash Rendar, and hey ho, here comes the Kyle Katarn pin-up boy of the 2010s. (Or just wind back the clock a few years to when we got JUNO! kid :p)

    And that's why I'm skeptical how much weight Disney are going to give to George Lucas's dream of some immortal story that will still be being watched in fifty years. Disney want to make money, and making money means doing what brings audiences into the cinema. Whether they still want to watch it again in thirty years? Who cares when you're planning to still be releasing new spin-offs? The spin-offs will be where your continued revenue stream comes from, not from re-releasing the ROTJ 3D Extended Cut, but from the first ever release of Episode 25: The Return of San Hill. If anything, I'd be amazed if the bigwhigs at Disney hadn't already talked about how many decades they should wait before doing an OT remake.

    And the moment you've even contemplated that possibility, you've moved from the goal of producing a timeless classic to instead just producing the next summer blockbuster, which in turn is a green light to using everything at your disposal to sell tickets.[/quote]
    Last edited by Zorrixor, Feb 3, 2013
  16. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    To be serious for the briefest of instants, I think all attitudes along the lines of "kids prefer flash over substance nowadays" are the definition of self-fulfilling prophecy, and can be outright damaging as such. People said the same thing when I was a kid and then Harry Potter happened. Even Twilight may be total garbage, but they're still, y'know, books. Kids are nothing if not malleable, and will find things to like out of what they're given. If we give them X-Factor, then they'll like X-Factor, but that's our fault, not theirs.
  17. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

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    It's a lot easier to be rooted in popular culture when your work is set in modern day New York.
  18. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Yes and no, really.

    While I'm not expecting Episode 7 to dispense with having an original soundtrack, music is still a classic example of how a film can tap into popular currents no matter its setting. Likewise, you can tell the OT's age by the fact the black character is secondary and the woman is not the main hero.

    Both of those are the sort of things I imagine will be updated, but while people of all ages might welcome a female protagonist, I can see things like the music not being to people's tastes if it's not by John Williams, or the kind of jokes that are funny for today's kids not working for older audiences the way Lucas's sense of humour might have.
    Oh, I fully agree with that.

    But it's just so predictable how the corporate mind thinks, and if something is going to sell more tickets, then do something to sell more tickets they will.

    This is why I just feel that in a few years all those annoying idiosyncrasies and plain dumbass ideas that Lucas had come out with over the years will probably be looked back on fondly after we see "The Force Unleashed: The Movie". Lucas was such an oddity in constantly reworking his films. But if all he'd cared about was money? The music in Jabba's Palace would have been replaced with the Spice Girls. :p

    Which is why I feel that by focusing on producing a "good film" it could indeed end up being that kind of self-fulfilling prophecy, whereby you end up with something that people enjoy, but ten years later look back on and cringe at the music and interests they used to have back then. That's the trouble with popular culture... you only think it's good until it's gone and you are able to look at it objectively and realise it sucked all along.

    For example, I'm sure someone thought this was a good idea at the time:

    [IMG]

    :p
    Last edited by Zorrixor, Feb 3, 2013
  19. TheYankee Force Ghost

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    Ah, I would agree with you by and large.
  20. blackmyron Force Ghost

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    I don't know about that - this OT fan just found the PT uninteresting. Any skepticism about the ST is based on general principles, but that's a baseline perspective that can change as we learn more information. (I guess I'm not "Internet Generation" enough to just make up stuff to fill the missing spaces, but it does make the Ep VII forums an entertaining read... )

    Exactly. That has been my biggest problem with both the PT and CWAS. I saw the OT as a very young child and one my earliest memories was myself and other preschoolers reenacting scenes from ANH. Yet the recent material so blatantly forced in "kidz-friendly" parts that came straight out of a manual for media executives, it was thoroughly disheartening. (Although sometimes had some amusing consequences, such as portraying Anakin as someone to emulate in product placements for TPM). Kids want something that grabs their attention, they don't need a 'kidz stand-in' - we had no problem pretending we were Luke or Han or Obi-Wan at the time.

    You do know that the whole "New 52" was an attempt to root DC's universe in an established continuity and canon going forward, right? So I guess you proved that it does matter.
    And again, Marvel Comics is right there, with its continuity and Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe and everything.

    I'm still not sure why you're trying to sell everyone here that the trashing of the EU would be a step forward.
    Last edited by blackmyron, Feb 3, 2013
  21. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    That's the point where you just disown your kids and start over.

    I think it was his lack of vision that the prequels ultimately paid the price for, but I'm glad we can all agree that they would have been much improved if *NSYNC had appeared as Jedi fighting on Geonosis.
  22. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    [face_laugh]
    Last edited by Zorrixor, Feb 3, 2013
  23. Obi-Wan21 Force Ghost

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    Aug 27, 2002
    star 4
    That is not what DC did, they effectively cleaned house. Most of their continuity was erased, with only bits and pieces kept to keep the long standing fans sated. They removed so much it is unbelievable. So, yeah, that's alot like what Disney could do; an opportunity to keep what works, remove what doesn't. It's only natural, and with the return of the films, it may easily become necessary. I think it's exciting, but I'm certainly not selling anything to anyone. As I said originally, this is in no way the end of the world for me, as I think it could fix many of the errors I see with the EU. You don't have to buy it, I'm not offering it to you. But I think it's a good idea.
  24. Esg Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    DC rebooots as often as you change shocks. I wish people would stop bringing up the 52 when it's mediocre. I'm also not interested in something as terrible as a major villain ripping their face off and making a mask out of it
    Last edited by Esg, Feb 3, 2013
  25. blackmyron Force Ghost

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    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    That's exactly what DC did. DC didn't have a working continuity prior to that; the 'bits and pieces' you're referring to was picking which of the multitude of various backstories, origins, character timelines etc. that would be canon for future stories. You know, like what Marvel and Star Wars already has. And you know what? This is also DC's third or fourth attempt - that's what Crisis on Infinite Earths attempted. And Zero Hour. Each time they haven't been able to keep to it, leading to confusion on what 'happened' every time a new writer or editor comes in. Maybe this time - with the threat that DC was going to be shut down if they didn't get their act together - they'll stick to it.
    But if you think that going to a Star Trek-style "non-EU" is going to be great for Star Wars, I - and I imagine many here at the EU forum - think you're absolutely wrong.
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