Lit A/V The Force Awakens and the EU [TAGGED spoilers.]

I don't believe any rumors that go for shock value. "No Jedi", "Han Solo hasn't seen Luke in 30 years" (that one in particular is absolutely ridiculous), "Jedi are hunted".... Bah. I just remain suspicious. Maybe I'm wrong, but I expect a fairly expectable environment preceding the "inciting incident". Or maybe there is some truth to the rumors themselves, only they have been understandably blown out of proportion by the standard procedure in which tales grow in height.

Basically, it seems to me like audiences are infatuated with dystopias for some reason, and project that onto Star Wars.

 

If that is true...all I can say is they got rid of the EU for this crap!!!! But I guess it would be in-character for Luke not to obey Yoda.

 

Furthermore, there needs to be something left for the heroes to accomplish. If there's already a new republic, new jedi order, etc., the ST is over before it begins.

 

That's what I've kept saying too, darklordoftech

If all that stuff is there at the start, then the ST isn't Episode 7, it's just Episode 1 of a new saga, which would be a very different thing-- and honestly, would be better called that, rather than just cashing in on the idea of Episode 7.

It's the same reason why I hope there is never an Episode 10, as if they spin-off in that direction, I'd rather they closed the door on the Palpatine Saga (or whatever you call it) and restarted at Episode 1 (the way that I don't think there will ever be a Kingdom Hearts 4, and that when the Xehanort Saga ends, they'll restart the numbering to make it easier for new players).

If it's true, it's an interesting premise... I quite like it.

It actually would also fit that rumour of the title being "The Ancient Fear", as it'd be referring to the Dark Side itself, and the fear of it returning-- as, heck, when the Chosen One himself couldn't resist it, I can buy Luke being very worried of causing more harm than good by bringing back the Jedi-- and in the context of the films, he had very, very, very little training to have any clue what to do next. (Of course, the irony here would be that Luke himself would be letting his fear control his choices, albeit for good intentions, but that's a premise I can actually see being interesting to explore, and allow Luke to still have some more character development.)

And if it meant we got to see the return of the Jedi in the films, and not something that had happened 20 years earlier? Cool. The need to be trained would also please me, as I used to like the WEG days where age didn't mean a lot, only training-- like Luke himself, who might have been the second most powerful Force user in the galaxy, but that didn't mean anyone realised until Obi-Wan actually trained him.

Having said all that, like all these rumours, I put no faith in it.

 

I thought the whole point of having Return of the Jedi as a title was 1. Luke is a Jedi and 2. Luke is bring back the Jedi.

I always thought the dystopia future in SW was the PT with the government falling apart and becoming tyrannical. Also the government's guardians failing and falling apart as well.

 

No, but as a writer and a gamemaster I like to utilize it as a writing experiment. Thus, you can see why the "jedi hunters" rumor didn't do it for me. There is nothing to that. "So, there's the good guys, right? And NOW, there's these BAD guys... You see where I'm going with this!"

 

I don't see the "no Jedi" thing as shock value, I see it as logic. Luke had barely any training. It makes perfect sense that Jedi wouldn't spring up out of nowhere all of the sudden. He would follow Obi-Wan's archetypal footsteps, and those footsteps lead off into a life as a hermit.

It sounds to me like you have a bit of trouble putting aside your preconception of what's "expected" or "obvious," but it's only that way because that's the direction the EU took; with no EU, there is no "expected" outcome. If you further remove the prequels from your mind (as I'm sure any writers with any concern for their careers attempted to), then the New Republic outcome is even less obvious.

And even if it's shocking to you, that doesn't mean it's not necessary as others said in order to give them something to do and not have everything important happening in the past.

 

So.... Luke turns into Kreia, basically. Interesting, but unlikely.

 

Except Luke wouldn't be willing to kill Jedi.

 

Nah. I expect what I expect because of the way Return of the Jedi ended and what little we know of the sequels Lucas planned to make once upon a time, not so much because of the EU -- in fact, the EU took the path it did for the same reasons. They'll subvert a thing or two, sure (this is the 21st century, we gotta play with the cool kids), but I expect some continuity with the happy ending where we left things off.

And if they don't look at the SW saga as a unified whole, with Ep. I as much a part of it as Ep. IV, they're far stupider than I would have thought. Aesthetics is one thing, story another.

Yes, technically a dystopia, but a far more subversive kind of dystopia, not the typical "everything's dirty and in shambles so you can tell things are real bad even if your brain don't work". And the whole thing ended with the promise of a better future which, goddamn it, will show up in Ep. VII, even if it's not even halfway on its path to realization.

The movie won't start with "everything is $#!%, there is no Republic, there are no Jedi, the Empire still rules most of the galaxy, a new $#!%storm is brewing and no one has seen Luke Skywalker since the Battle of Endor". It may not be a "happily ever after", but I'm pretty sure it will be far less dystopian than most of the rumors going around posit.

 

Unless he was planning on committing suicide, that really doesn't mean much.

 

Although I could go either way with Jedi, I don't want to see a Republic when VII opens. We already saw a Republic in the PT, creating a New Republic would give the heroes something to accomplish without undoing what was accomplished in the OT, and a chaotic galaxy means more opportunities for stories.

 

i think the rumors have all agreed with each other. has anyone seen any contradictions?? To me there is to much for these to just be rumors. I wish they were.

 

It's important to look at circularity, which is big in Star Wars. If these things don't mirror each other, calling it "Episode VII" is cheating. Now, the status quo established at the end of the prequels was retained until the beginning of the original trilogy. How did the prequels end? With the Empire established, and a new hope put into place quite explicitly. The ending of RotS tells us, "the Empire will make things very difficult for awhile, then the Skywalker twins will challenge it under Obi-Wan and Yoda". So, what does the ending of RotJ tell us? That it's good days ahead, that the Empire is irreparably screwed if not completely obliterated, that Han and Leia will get together, and that, in the name of God, THE JEDI HAVE RETURNED!

In order for the film to earn its "Episode VII"-ness, it has to play by the rules, and the rules are Lucas's rules, and the rules say that the films mirror each other in very specific ways. The new guys may idiotically want to break from the rules, of course, but in the absence of proof, I expect them to follow them.

All that to say: provided the rules are followed, the Empire, if it even exists, won't be dominant in VII, but there was no Republic at the end of RotJ, so they might still be working on it, and we were also promised Luke-trained Jedi, so Luke-trained Jedi is what we will get. Sue me, but I think following Return of the Jedi with a movie in which the Jedi have not returned is an immensely idiotic notion.

As Zorrixor said, there's no reason to go back to the saga now that Palpatine and Anakin are dead and all appears to be well. Something has to be left unticked on the shopping list. But also, the only way to go back to the saga is by being saga-like, and that means fulfilling the promises the preceding movie made, and also continuing to unravel the thread that runs through from the very beginning. It sounds like a catch-22, and short of rehashing Dark Empire I personally see no way out, but going against the promise of RotJ would most definitely be cheating.

 

But they can still make Legends into the Visions of Luke Skywalker© . Just have him a hermit and say, "well I saw into the past and future, it was fun but didn't seem to be going to end well"

I agree with this wholeheartedly and I might add that the OT ending is not ambiguous, it promises happy times ahead; not even a looming threat like on TPM. If they take away, even a little bit, from the OT, they alienate the nostalgia fanbase. As in "sure our lives over these 30 years haven't been all bliss, but I'm sure the SW lot has has it great!".

TPM, alienated many people with that one line about midichlorians (not me, I love it). I'm sure the executives would see that as a mistake and attempt to avoid undoing stuff

 

You explained everything I wanted to say on this subject. Seriously the best serious post I have seen in this thread.

Well at least we would have some closesure if they did do that. I also want to add that I am tired of movies filled with dystopian futures, and don't want to see it in Ep. 7. Which is why I am glad that the rumors we getting so far are just rumors.

 

I'll have no problem with Luke being a hermit if one of two things occurred: A) he tried to revive the Jedi Order, but it ended in disaster and sent him into self-imposed exile, with some of the new protagonists of the film seeking him out to try it again, or B) he succeeded, and then went off to live as a hermit for a bit for whatever reason while the Jedi he trained continued on rebuilding the Order.

I'll be pretty upset if it turns out he never tried to rebuild the Jedi Order, since the films seem to imply that as the obvious next step for him.

I don't believe any of the rumors that have emerged so far though. The idea of Han having not seen him for 30 years is ****ing ridiculous.

 

I think you guys are pretty blinded by the EU. If you really take what Return of the Jedi has given you, the Jedi tradition has become an incredibly personal thing to Luke. When the Force is returned to balance, there really is no more reason for it; establishing the order as a superhuman paramilitary is contradictory to Luke's understanding of the light side of the Force as a peacekeeping power. I mean, he literally conquers Vader by refusing to fight him. In that, he has learned more about the light side of the Force than the Jedi who came before him. That doesn't mean there won't be a threat which challenges that perception, but at the end of RotJ, he has advanced farther than any other Jedi by essentially not doing what they traditionally did---that is, fight, however nobly they may have done it.

So making the absolute unquestioning statement that Return of the Jedi promises a new Jedi order is just false to me. You can say you want it, you can say that it rings true to you, but without assumptions based on the EU there is no factual basis for it---just a feeling, at best.. From what's given to us, there's really no precedent for reestablishing any sort of glorious order.

Anyway, that's not to say an order won't be established beginning in VII.

 

I think it's more of expectations of the first movie of the reborn franchise and pandering to the "core audience" - which I'm going to imagine that Disney/LFL marketers are going to say want lots of Jedi and lightsaber battles.

 

I actually doubt that. I think VII will much more resemble ANH, where the details about Jedi took a backseat. I think we'll be poised for more Jedi action by the end of the film than right out of the gate.

...Because frankly Disney already knows full well it'll be a huge success, no matter what they do.

But no, if we're talking about their ace in the hole as far as iconography goes, I'm putting that squarely on Han and the Falcon.

EDIT: Come to think of it, Starkeiller, the whole idea of there not being a Jedi order established does, in fact, rhyme; it rhymes with ANH. John Boyega finding a lightsaber will rhyme with Luke getting his lightsaber. Your theory about entering the trilogy on a status quo and requiring a Jedi order isn't entirely accurate; TPM starts with the status quo of Jedi in power, ANH starts with the status quo of the Sith in power, and so it makes sense that VII would start with the status quo of neither being in power.

Your position is totally fair and valid, but I think I've laid out a fairly convincing argument here about how to create an interesting film, whereas what you're saying seems more concerned with rules and preconceived feelings. Personally, I hold the quality of the screenplay in significantly higher regard than its willingness to adhere to abstract rules.

 

I would say that Luke Skywalker would have trained at least one good guy (and possibly only 1) only because we need to see the blue / green lightsaber guy fight the red lightsaber guy, which is a thing that is destined to happen in a Star Wars movie, and I doubt they'll pull an ANH and have the only blue / green lightsaber guy be the old man wizard.

It's possible that Our Heroes (played by Daisy Ridley and John Boyega) are capable with a lightsaber sans Skywalker tutelage but I'm not sure that would mean they would be able to become triumphant over the red lightsaber guy in the finale if they literally just picked up a lightsaber in Act 1 for the first time. Therefore we need another blue or green lightsaber guy to fight at the end who isn't just Luke Skywalker. Which means Luke has trained somebody off screen.

 

I can guarantee you that nobody walked out of theater in 1977 complaining that the only blue saber guy was an old man. In fact, in my observation, ANH is the favorite of most people who aren't hardcore fans.

 

I absolutely agree with you. In 1977. And it's still an awesome scene this day. But, honestly, I don't think in any way in 2015 for episode 7 it'll just be the old man with green / blue lightsaber being the only one swinging it at red lightsaber person at the climax of the movie.

 

Disney/LFL is taking the long view here. 'Success' is a relative term - just ask Joel Schumacher. Ep7 is supposed to be the foundation of a remastered franchise. So I'm sure the marketing people are going to be working very hard to make sure some key factors are included.

And look at the Star Trek movies - they did okay, especially in comparison with the last ones of the old ST movies - but did they grab people like the Marvel movies did?

For the OT crowd? Sure. Now what about those that grew up with the PT or the CWAS as their core Star Wars experience? What are they going to be looking for?

Apropos of nothing, Rick Remender on the corporate view of art (via the Uncanny Avengers Annual)

"If you want to make art, go take a watercolor class - this is a business maximizing brand loyalty."

I really hope he gets one of the Star Wars comics...