Lit A/V The Force Awakens and the EU [TAGGED spoilers.]

If there is a new Jedi Order in the sequels, at least episode 7, I'm betting it'll be about what the NJO was depicted as in the past decade or so, not because of any EU borrowing bust because Denning/Allston/Traviss/Golden basically just turned the Jedi into a paramilitary commando force, and seeing how Starfleet got treated in Abrams' Trek films (as a pretty clearly military-first organization but one that was somehow also separate and better from "actual" military forces) it's easy to see echoes.

 

I just really, really doubt it. They have every reason to make Episode VII about the reluctant formation of the new Jedi Order. Lawrence Kasdan is on board, which means old-school screenwriting rules, which means letting that much happen offscreen in the intervening years would be a no-no. It would screw up a pretty perfect pattern:

I: The Jedi are in power.
IV: The Sith are in power.
VII: No one is in power.

Plus, when you add up the info about who's playing who---confirmed stuff, like John Boyega being a stormtrooper and Daisy Ridley being his friend---where are these Jedi everyone's so sure will appear?

 

I thought nothing was confirmed about the new characters yet.

 

Neither of which are confirmed, unless Latino Review somehow counts as confirming stuff now.

 

every rumor is true

even the mutually exclusive ones

 

Boyega will not stay a stormtrooper

 

I actually agree. If there is already a new Jedi Order, I don't want LOTF PT 2.0, but would rather something closer to the ideas people had before the PT, and keep it more low key, and just "Luke and his students".

In the early days, I cared when a Jedi character died, as each life felt precious. But after the PT, Jedi became redshirts whose only purpose was to die in a big brawl. I much preferred the Marvel comic days of all of Luke's students being an individual, and not just Nameless Blue Nautolan Jedi #6. It's why if there's to be a new Jedi Temple, I'd prefer to see someone discover it during the ST.

 

The rumor was corroborated by two sources, including Badassdigest---directly from Devin Faraci, who is an ass but not a rumormonger---and parts of it were specifically debunked in such a way that it would have been easier just to debunk the entire thing. Certain elements of it are all but confirmed.

 

Personally, I'm not putting any stock into any of the rumours. I'll judge once I see it or read official information after its out.

I would love to see Luke build the new order. It wouldn't be pointless at all nor do I think it'd be dull. However, I don't expect it as many seem to be solely the 'action, action, action' types. Now, that is dull. I want to see character arcs and growth.

 

I can see your point, but I don't agree that Luke would be training them out of fear. He would be doing it out of responsibility, or duty.

But by the time he needed them, wouldn't it be too late? If he's just starting their training after the threat has already emerged, then the Sith have time to run rampant around the galaxy tearing things apart until his students are well-trained enough to take them down. And even if the Jedi did, as you say, contribute to the whole mess in the first place, you're assuming that Luke would teach the same dogma as the old Jedi Order. His own teachings would likely be very different.

Okay, but you can have that even if there are other students. Maybe he teaches every one of his students in a very strict manner. I do see your point, though, and in all likeliness (unfortunately, IMO) we'll be seeing Luke teaching either his first, or one of his first, students in VII. Which could make for some good drama, but it just seems like he would've at least trained one or two students after thirty years.

 

The idea that the we need to see the Jedi restored in the ST, only works of the state of the order was a major plotline throughout the series. While it is an important plotline, it is a side story much like the galactic government is. Instead Star Wars is primarily a story about family, specifically the Skywalkers. In the OT, Luke's training was important only because it was him following in his father's footsteps. If we continue in this line of thought, the ST should focus on the next generation. If the focus is on anything else, it won't fit with the rest of the saga. That doesn't mean that the state of the Jedi or the restoration of the Republic shouldn't be plot lines, just that they shouldn't be the focus. For this reason we don't need to see the beginning or even the middle of these processes -- starting at the end is completely appropriate based in where the OT ends.

PT: the Jedi are purges/the Republic is restored
OT: the Jedi Order is symbolically recreated/the Empire falls and the Republic is restored, at least symbolically.

Thus it would make sense to have

ST: the new Jedi Order finds its place in the new galactic order and/or comes into its own as defenders of the galaxy/the New Republic expands to encompass the galaxy, proves its legitimacy, or shows that in can keep its citizens safe.

None of these indicate a TPM status quo, nor should that be the case. I'd be disappointed if the Jedi were a PT clone; they should exists and be very much unique. Likewise for a hypothetical New Republic.

Re the casting rumors: I don't think the rumors should be taken as implied fact. JJ Abrams is known for trying to keep things secret. Also, the rumors were too unbelievable and since this is Star Wars people will try to come up with anything. Not explicitly discredited doesn't indicate that something is true. As things stand they are just rumors. Even if they were true, we don't have proof there are no new Jedi, only that they aren't major characters, which fits with my idea of a small and disorganized group of Jedi. Ultimately we can't say either way because there is no proof.

 

"It’s definitely a character that will make fans of TOS excited. Think along the lines of Harry Mudd or Trelane or Gary Mitchell or the Talosians or the Horta. Actually it’s one of those that I named."

 

This whole "Jedi order already exists and is finding its place" idea betrays the original idea of the lone hermit Jedi which will most strongly influence VII. It's the sound of fanfiction. It's logical, and that's the problem: it's too logical to sink money into for a blockbuster which people have high creative expectations for. The screenwriters' job is to ultimately deliver what you expect to see, but to undercut your expectations in order to get there.

I know what I believe about it, as a writer. If they do what you've described, I'll be bored. I mean, that's like Avatar-level predictability. So none of this has swayed me, as everything I'm getting at is decidedly not my first conclusion---what you're describing is the obvious first conclusion---and that's precisely why I'm not expecting it. This film is too big to simply deliver on expectations.

Also, casual fans don't give near as much of an F about Jedi as hardcore fans (i.e. forum posters). For most people it's all about Han and the Falcon, and most casual Jedi fandom has nothing to do with the order---that's too "organized religion" to be trendy---but the idea of a lone spiritual warrior.

It's sooo not along the same lines. The fact is, Faraci got some stuff right in that article that was corroborated by others, but some of the exclusive stuff was wrong because deliberately-false Trek stuff was leaked for the specific purpose of covering up Khan; in this case, there very well could be false stuff in the rumor, but the Boyega + Ridley stuff that was independently corroborated. If you follow John Boyega's instagram, there are even more hints about it (any direct mentions of getting pumped up for Star Wars have a decidedly Imperial theme).

It also just makes sense. At least from a good screenwriting perspective, not just a predictable one.

 

Wow, all your post proves is that your perception differs from others. Join the club. That is not cause to be rude.

 

I don't think it's too logical or like fan fiction -- to make that fit the Jedi would have to be a PT clone. I also feel like going back to a lone hermit Jedi would be too close to the OT, which wouldn't provide good plot progression-- I love the OT, but I want something new. They should make the universe unique form both the PT and OT, while at the same time taking elements form both.

I know most fans care more about Han -- he's the character I'm most excited for. My proposal is to have the Jedi exist, but not play a major role in the movie.

 

JK75: Then to be fair, I think we have the same ideas about balance, but I just don't think it'll be meted out in quite the same fashion. Following the rule of "show, don't tell," there has to have been a fair amount of stasis between VI and VII. For me, an established order breaks that rule.

Is your idea that when someone here comes up with it, criticizing it is rude... but when it's what's actually up on screen, it's just deserved criticism?

I don't buy it. I've just said I think it would be boring and predictable. Partially because that's what the EU did (and though some interesting things came from it, the foundation was built on some of the WORST books in the EU), but mostly because it ruins the personal spirituality of the Jedi by immediately turning it into an order, and with an order comes convoluted rules, and with convoluted rules come deviation from the true path. It is, in a manner of speaking, repeating the same mistakes... just a different way. It would take me out of it.

 

I agree that we have the same ideas about balance

You do have a point. For the sake of clarification, I don't think we will have anything resembling a Jedi Order or even a Jedi academy like on the EU. What I imagine is that Luke may have trained a couple people in his travels, who then may have went on to train others. You are right that this would violate "show, don't tell," if the focus of the movie was the state of the Jedi Order. I hope this isn't the case, in such a plan they'd be little more than a part of the setting, something we'd barely see.

The Jedi finding their place in the galaxy would rest on the shoulders of Anakin's grandkid(s). This would fit with the idea of passing the tourch and continuing the story of the Skywalker's. I will say that the grandkids should start their training in EP7. This would fit with the movie focusing on the big four, while introducing the new generation. I actually hope they'll be the only Jedi having a major, or even minor, role in the ST; I don't want a Jedi centric trilogy -- outside of existing, which will hopefully allow for some interesting books or comics that are different from the EU version. Seriously though, I don't want to see any others except maybe standing with an admiral on a bridge or walking in a base. I definately don't want them to speak much if at all. Their purpose would be to show progression.

 

We got another casting rumor. Makes me wonder how many more we still have left?

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-29019238

 

Praenomen Cognomen:

Well, you need to remember that the Jedi Order has historically been VERY successful in that GFFA. Before they were purged in the PT, the Jedi had been protecting the galaxy for over a thousand years or a thousand generations depending on the publication. Either way, I'd say that was pretty amazing! I wouldn't call that a terrible failure at all. Any organization that can thrive for so long is doing something right! If the Jedi Order could last that long prior to Palpatine, how do we know that there can't also be a future of a thousand years of the Jedi successfully protecting the galaxy after Luke starts to train Jedi? And I'm pretty sure that Luke's Order would be different from the PT Order. Hopefully, Luke's Order would allow marriage and families, and would train adults and not take infants from their families.

I don't know if I would call the Jedi a religious order either. They are called Jedi KNIGHTS, after all.

I also disagree that Luke should wait until there is some enormous crisis or some Sith is threatening the galaxy. By that time, it would be far too late. A Jedi isn't taught in a day. Most will need far more time than Luke did to become a Jedi knight. The time to train them is BEFORE they are needed, so when they ARE needed, they will be fully trained and ready. Besides, living in that very dangerous galaxy, Luke has no idea how long he will live. It would be irresponsible of him to wait because if he doesn't train new Jedi before he dies, there would be no more Jedi.





Revanfan1:

I agree. I think he would take it as a huge responsibility knowing that he was the only one who could keep the Order alive.

Exactly! That was exactly one of my points above. You can't wait until an emergency to start training. You have to be ready BEFORE the emergency occurs.

I agree with you.

I will be very disappointed if Luke hasn't trained at least a few Jedi before Episode VII starts. It will mean that Luke has pretty much wasted the 30 most prime years of his life. And it's going to take a LONG time to get to the point where there is a flourishing Jedi Order. I'm hoping Luke has made at least a small start on that rebuilding between trilogies.

 

Thinking about the cast in relation to their possible (and rumored) roles.

Villains: Adam Driver, Max von Sydow, Lupita Nyong'o, Gwendoline Christie
Heroes: Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher, Harrison Ford, Daisy Ridley, Oscar Isaac, John Boyega, Peter Mayhew, Anthony Daniels, Kenny Baker
Unknowns: Domhnall Gleeson, Andy Serkis, Pip Andersen, Crystal Clarke

Given his acrobatic skills, I find it likely that Pip Andersen will be a Force sensitive. A hunch tells me that Gleeson will be a Jedi, even if he isn't related to the Skywalker or Kenobi line. And Serkis is purportedly using a lightsaber. So. We know that Luke and (probably) Leia will be Jedi, it's been rumored at various times that both Ridley and Boyega will end up as Jedi (whether or not Ridley is a Solo/Skywalker). Bear with me here–there are already four actors rumored to play villains. So it's unlikely that Andersen and Clarke will be villains, too, unless VII will have the most villains out of any SW movie (even ROTS only had four).

So, I have no idea about Clarke's role, but could Andersen be a potential Jedi? What if (and this is just me speculating based on rumors) Luke has been gone for so long because he's been hiding Jedi children so the Jedi hunters/Inquisitors/take-your-pick villains won't find them? Thus Ridley, Gleeson, Andersen, and possibly Clarke would be in hiding, possibly unaware of their own Force potential, and Luke hasn't had time to train them yet because he's been captured recently. But he has trained Leia and Serkis, and they're looking out for these four kids (maybe without the kids even knowing).

So MVS finds out about these kids (possibly by reading a captured Luke's mind through the Force?) and sends Gwendoline Christie (rumored to be a descendant of Dooku, but also some kind of trooper–so maybe she's the commander of the rumored lightsaber-wielding trooper regime?) to track them all down and bring them in or kill them. Boyega's a stormtrooper, or Imperial of some type, under her command. Maybe he knows he's Force sensitive, maybe he doesn't. But along the way, he meets Ridley, defects. Christie would thus spend the rest of the movie hunting him down because she has a vendetta against him.

Ridley and Boyega could meet up with Isaac/Han/Chewie and head out to search for Luke. Christie decides to abandon her search for the Force sensitives and instead focus on Boyega, so MVS sends Nyong'o to hunt the Force sensitives down in her place. Nyong'o confronts Serkis, who has found out about Christie hunting down the kids and has gathered up Gleeson, Andersen, and Clarke. Nyong'o attacks Serkis and defeats him, but before she can kill him–enter Leia, who defeats her. Gleeson, the most well-trained of the Force-sensitive students, takes Serkis' lightsaber and leads Andersen and Clarke to find Luke, while Leia stays with the injured Serkis.

Luke, meanwhile, has been trying to persuade his captor (Driver) to let him go and turn to the light side. He finds out that Driver has killed off MVS and taken control of the operation. The only reason Luke hasn't escaped yet is because he is afraid if Driver or one of his cohorts follows him, he'll lead them right to the Force sensitives. But Nyong'o arrives and tells Driver what happened. Shortly thereafter, Han and co. arrive and a battle begins. Hot on their heels are Christie and her forces. Luke escapes and battles Driver. Han drops Ridley and Boyega off on the ground while he commands the space battle. Ridley and Boyega fight Christie. Gleeson, Andersen, and Clarke arrive and have a Round 2 with Nyong'o.

Blah-blah-blah, movie ends with Luke escaping with the kids, but they have to find a location to rebuild the Jedi Order and they don't want to be found by the surviving villains, so they set up on an island–Skellig Michael. This is the starting place of the New Jedi Order, and Leia brings Serkis to join them.

You know, this post started out as a two-paragraph little "we have a lot of actors who could potentially be young Jedi." And it turned into this. Also, it occurs to me that if I posted this anonymously on some rumor site as an inside source, it would probably catch fire and be all over the internet inside of a day. It would be hilarious.

TL;DR, it's possible that there are a number of actors–Serkis, Andersen, Gleeson, Clarke–who could be playing Jedi, we just don't know yet.

 

Well, you must see that you've provided your own internal logic here. If you don't see the Jedi as a religious order (which, I have to say, it a bit ridiculous; they're based on the eastern legend of warrior monks and they have a strict moral code, so you at least have to see them as partially a religious order), then obviously you're gonna think more pragmatically about their place in the galaxy.

However, we know that Luke touched on a greater meaning than the pragmatic militaristic "necessity" of the Jedi which was taken for granted so long. In Luke's mind, under the belief that balance had been brought to the Force, explain to me precisely how it is that forming a new warrior monk paramilitary---getting a leg up on the opposition, basically---doesn't count as deliberately putting the Force out of balance. Please? Because even if they're trained as a backup, backup is still a form of power (as I've said, the nuclear option), and to hold power is to tempt someone to challenge that power. And let me clarify: I'm not saying that this means Luke won't train any more Jedi. I'm just saying that this is the conundrum that he should be contending with in the intervening 30 years. That conundrum will inevitably end with him answering a new threat by training Jedi, but it would totally undermine the truth Luke uncovered in mastering the light side of the Force for him to be cavalier about that. He's not a general. He's a rebel. Rebels don't build their forces preemptively, and especially not servants of the light side.

You're more than welcome to have an opinion, but I take issue with your selective sight here. We're not just talking about civics. The Jedi had some very deep spiritual flaws which must be contended with, as their existence as a political arm was partially in opposition to what they knew of the light side. It would be a wasted opportunity not to deal with that anew.

 

@Praenomen Cognomen, we'll just need to agree to disagree. I don't see anything wrong with Luke rebuilding the Jedi Order. I'm expecting his Order to be different from the Prequel Order in some important ways. I'm hoping he will have trained some Jedi between the two trilogies, and then we will see him train someone or several others in Episode VII.

 

Well said, CoW.

 

everyone's opinion cannot be marked by others for it is only thatperson that has the power to change their opinion

 

And that's fine, but do you understand what I mean by selective sight? It's fine that you don't personally care either way about the issues that cause someone like myself to see it the way I see it... but that doesn't mean that these events and precedents I've described are absent from the story. I haven't heard anyone explain them away. So, these issues are issues, objectively... it's just that they're not the sort of issues that would bother you if they went ignored. It's a bit imprecise to say that it's simply a matter of opinion, as the weights of the opinions aren't taken into consideration. People like stuff for different reasons, and I'd rather see a meaningful take on Jedi than a shoehorning of them which lacks ideology just for the sake of getting the blurs of blue and green and red on the screen again.

There are a lot of canonicity issues and things that people complain about because somebody said, "Well, this is what was established, but we had this other idea so we changed it." That's what we're looking at here, in terms of Luke's character arc. Personally, as a writer, I think if they have the opportunity to make it consistent, they should, regardless of how many people would care about that particular instance of consistency or inconsistency. Some people lose their **** about a planet's capital changing... and I don't lose my ****, but if I did, I'd be much more likely to lose my **** over an inconsistent character arc.