Lit Disney Wars: Episode 7 and the EU (Spoiler Thread)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by TypoCelchu, Oct 30, 2012.

  1. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Yeah, the Purists loved throwing that line and similar things at us back in the day. But we won the canon wars... but the forces of darkness have waged a guerilla war ever since, a clone war.

    And now they have revealed their champion. They've played their hand and made their final move.
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  2. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    Their champion:

    [IMG]

    :-B

    I'm just gonna leave that there.
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  3. blackmyron Force Ghost

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    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    Considering this comes from the guy who tries to pass off his Dune novels as being based on the notes of Frank Herbert, I really can't say I take KJA as the voice of reason when it comes to canon.
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  4. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    All it is, is a not that well thought out „What if?” story they happen to be trying to build a new movie franchise around. It pretty much is what the SW infinites comic did, but those at least were honest about not taking the thing serious. ;)


    Oh in that regard I gave up on Star Trek making any sense or being particularly good long ago with the launch Voyager, the thing is the Star Trek movie just has a lot of plot holes and plain stupid stuff, even if you are not looking for nitpicky reasons like Ex Astris sometimes does.
  5. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    It is not a "What If" story. It is a "This is what officially happened in canon" story. You haven't demonstrated that it was in any way "not well thought out", unless you mean that they should have thought about your feelings before they disappointed you.

    It's not an "Infinities" story. It is the official continuation of the canon and describes what happens post-2379 in the Prime universe. Since it is as canonical as any other film or series in the franchise there is no reason for it not to have been taken seriously. SW Infinities comics are not stories featuring the canonical exploits of characters from the SW canon timeline who are transported into a parallel universe.

    It doesn't have any more "plot holes" than the average film. Most if not all of the typical complaints against it are complete nonsense ( Kirk's mother is "in the wrong place"; ENT said that Vulcan sometimes has blue skies but we don't care about ENT when it contradicts us; a different stardate system in 2387 must mean the stardate system was already different in 2233; give us back our magic reset button because it's morally wrong to not use a magic reset button; etc ).
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Dec 1, 2012
  6. CaptainPeabody Force Ghost

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    Jul 15, 2008
    star 2
    I am a life-long Star Trek fan. I liked the new Star Trek film. Nevertheless, it did indeed contain, indubitably, large plot holes and continuity errors. I would advise you not to challenge me on that, or I shall be forced to deploy my vast array of trivial knowledge against you.
    Last edited by CaptainPeabody, Dec 1, 2012
  7. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Such as?

    ( No, really, the use of "indubitably" was totally convincing )
  8. JediMatteus Force Ghost

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    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    i am off subject but i would like some novels on the Hyperspace war time period
  9. cthugha Force Ghost

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    Sep 24, 2010
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    Ooh, me too... and hey, if the others can talk about Star Trek in here, we can talk about random EU subjects, right?
  10. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    *achem*

    [IMG]
  11. CaptainPeabody Force Ghost

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    Jul 15, 2008
    star 2
    In terms of plot holes, the biggest one is Spock's stranding on Delta Vega. Nero picks up Spock specifically so he can make him watch the destruction of his home world while rejoicing in his suffering and vengeance. Then, for no conceivable reason, he drops him off on a random ice planet with a Federation outpost that would allow Spock to be rescued at his leisure. Now, a scene from the movie shows Spock watching Vulcan's destruction from the surface of Delta Vega; but if the scene is accurate, Delta Vega would be several times closer to Vulcan than Earth's moon, and so would have been completely destroyed by Vulcan's turning into a black hole: plus, we know from earlier continuity that Vulcan has no moon. The writers have said, however, that the scene is supposed to be a metaphorical representation of Spock experiencing Vulcan's destruction psychically over some great distance. But in that case, why in the name of heck would Nero, who, remember, wants to make Spock watch his homeworld's destruction so that he can delight in his suffering, and also wants to go on to destroy Earth and the rest of the Federation, first and foremost go and stick Spock on a random ice planet where (1) Spock couldn't even watch his homeworld's destruction, (2) Nero couldn't watch Spock suffering his homeworld's destruction, (3) Spock can just contact the Federation outpost on the planet to get rescued whenever he wants, and (4) Spock can then at his leisure tell the Federation all of Nero's secrets, reveal his plans, and give the Federation access to future technology equal to or greater than Nero's own, thus taking away Nero's only advantage over his enemies? And then Kirk happens to get exiled there and stumble across him.

    I have much more, but I need to go eat lunch.

    Remember, I like the film. But that doesn't mean it's perfect.
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  12. CaptainPeabody Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2008
    star 2
    I WAS CALLED OUT!

    But I will stop now. I gave the warning so I wouldn't have to drag the off-topic out any more than necessary. Sorry.
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  13. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    Based around a “What if….” time travel plot, so they just set up an alternative reality strand to tell their story in. It being canon or not does not even really feature into the debate, as it is just simply not set in the main time line and in that regard no different from any number of alternate timeline or different reality episodes of Trek, only difference is that they happen to set their movies in it. As for all it added to the Star Trek “main” timeline was Romulus getting blown, Nero traveling back and Spock getting stuck in an alternate reality of the past. All the rest is just the “what if…” scenario that spins from those changes.

    We must be watching very different movies.
    Just from memory.
    Why do the Romulans look different if they are meant to be the same ones from Star Trek?
    Why don’t they have lighting on Neros ship? Okay it’s a mining ship but even for those light is a good thing. Why the bottomless pits all over the place? Why the stagnate pools of water?
    Why did Nero not attack Vulcan and Earth right away? Sitting on his hands brings him nothing. Or since the brought a ship from the future that can beat a whole Federation fleet, go to Romulus and help them conquer the galaxy with future tech.
    Kirks goes from being a Cadet that is about to get kicked out of the Academy to acting captain whilst the actual ships command crew is still alive?
    Starfleet computers are nitpicky about pronunciation? How are Aliens ever meant to work with them then if it becomes uncooperative with a Russian speaking accented English.
    Why shoot Kirk onto an ice moon and not just throw him into the brig?
    Why are their water tunnels in engineering instead of a warp core?
    Why does the USS Kevin not look like a ship design from the main time stream of that period, as it should still be in “normal” time?
    So you have stuff that can create worm holes… why do you need to drill into planets for it to work? Drop it somewhere close by and be done.
    How does the Ice Moon very close to Vulcan not get swallowed by the same Black Hole, if you can actually see the planet get destroyed with your eyes?
    Where are the other Star Trek classic aliens, why all the new races and none of the old other than a Orion, Vulancs and Romulans that don’t look Romulan?
  14. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    And yet he did. Unless, of course, he is TEH BIG LIARZ - but don't you have to be Ian McDiarmid to get roles like that?

    Who cares? Is this what you're calling a plot hole? Nero not having zero imagination?

    If that earlier continuity leaves out ST:TMP.

    This makes no sense whatsoever. By this logic every plot of every ST film or episode is a "What if" plot, rendering the term meaningless. It is, again, not a "What if". It is a "this happened and then other things happened".

    It being canon or not does not even really "feature" into the debate, when the debate is about whether or not it's equivalent to SW Infinities?

    What a nonsensical mess. Alternate timeline episodes are not set in the main timeline? There is no difference when a sentence starts, but by the second part of the sentence the difference is that "they happen to set their movies in it", whatever that means?

    So it didn't add enough to the main Star Trek timeline, and thus it gets placed in a separate category that you've invented? Just how much change to the Prime timeline would have been required for the film to escape the "Infinities" label? Where's the cutoff? You have to tell me the specifics of these rules because I can't see them, as with all imaginary things.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Dec 1, 2012
  15. Gorefiend Chosen One

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    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    Only the ones about time travel when they go back and changing something in the past alters the future, of which there are a few. Not all good, not all bad. The only difference here really is that in normal episodes they will reset at the end, in this case they just choose to do more movies in the alternate timeline. And I have no basic problem with it being a time travel story or them having gone back and changed the past so they can tell a different story with change TOS era characters. The problem for me really was the movie being a tad stupid in a few too many places.


    Of course it is, just like ANH infinites was “what if the first Death Star did not blow up”, here it is “what if an insane Romulan and Spock did some time travel….”. Only real difference is that SW Infinites are not considered part of canon, whilst Star Trek kind of includes its alternate reality things, though of course they will not have actually have had happened in the “main” timeline, though characters involved in the event might remember having experienced the alternate events.

    Since it is a time travel story where things clearly are very different from the main timeline of Star Trek, it must to be an alternative timeline (or afaik as the movie itself calls it an alternative reality). What else should it be?
  16. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    <No additional text necessary.>
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  17. Robimus Force Ghost

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    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    I just found out that Shooter McGavin was on an Episode of Star Trek. The only thing Star Wars can do to complete is hire him to be in Ep 7.
  18. Gorefiend Chosen One

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    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    The actor who voices Carth was also in a few episodes of Voyager, playing the maybe last sane person stuck under the reign of terror of Captain Janeway and tries to save the crew by making a deal with local forces; he dies in a plasma fire before Janeway gets a chance to torture him to death. [face_plain]
  19. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    No, this is in no way the equivalent of ANH Infinities. It is not "what if an insane Romulan and Spock did some time travel". It is "an insane Romulan and Spock did some time travel". ANH Infinities did not happen in the canon SW timeline. It is not canon. STXI happened in the canon ST timeline. It is canon ( in fact, as is well known, the only truly canon elements in ST are considered to be the films and episodes ).
    darklordoftech likes this.
  20. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    Hmm... maybe a different tactic...

    [IMG]
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  21. Gorefiend Chosen One

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    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    I never disputed it being canon, and yet it is still the same premise of a “what if” story than an SW Infinites story, Star Trek just happens to handle such stuff differently and even there the movie itself says it is a different timeline than the main timeline. As I did already write above.


    Very much so Aarrba needs his own book. :)
  22. darklordoftech Force Ghost

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    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    Why don't we get this thread back on topic and create a separate Star Trek thread?
  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The "it" you're referring to is not something completely unrelated to the main timeline, as an Infinities-style product would be. It branches off from the Prime at a specific point. The film chronicles events both in the prime timeline and the branching timeline. Nothing like that ever happens in Infinities. In ST different timelines are like places you can travel between. It is nothing like the difference between ANH and ANH Infinities. To not see that is just:
    [IMG]
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Dec 1, 2012
  24. darklordoftech Force Ghost

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    Sep 30, 2012
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    What-if and time travel are two different ways of creating an alternate timeline, end of discussion.
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Dec 1, 2012
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  25. Todd the Jedi Mod and Sitcom Dad of SWTV

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    He was in Fanboys. That kinda counts.