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Dispelling RPG System's Myths -- d6 and d20 Discussion!

Discussion in 'Games: RPG & Miniatures' started by Blithe, Jan 5, 2008.

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  1. Blithe

    Blithe Jedi Master star 4

    Jun 24, 2003
    I thought it might be for an interesting discussion if we talked about some of the strange myths that have developed about certain RPG systems out there that we've heard about concerning the mechanics of the games. I'm sure you have all seen some crazy stuff at some point. Many can be just misconceptions about the game, but more often then not, a lot -- and I mean A LOT -- are simply do to a poor understanding of the rules, or even worse, poor role-playing.

    I'll start off with a d6 and d20 example I can think of off the top of my head.


    Perhaps one of most notorious complaints I've heard about d6 SW is that the Jedi are WAY overpowered. Honestly, I've just not seen it, yet all over the place I see, "Yeah, but once a Jedi has his Force skills around the 8D-12D range, they are GODS. It unbalances the game!"

    This is something I simply don't get. Sure a Jedi with 10D in is Force skills can dish out massive damage with his lightsaber, and pretty much never miss -- but is that all there is to combat? To me, the first, and ultimately most important part of this, is that this must fundamentally be a GM issue. What kind of situations are you throwing a Jedi Master that allow him to simply get by with just attack and parry? If they are of a master's skill level, then they should be on missions that put that reputation to the test. Take a look at the movies: hacking down nameless thugs, stormies, and battledroids are for newbs. Throw someting with real difficulty can slow even a Jedi Master down quite a bit. What happens when there is a situation that his survival depends on him using Danger Sense (which is generally "up" most of the time anyway), Life Detection, and Resist Stun? Multi-action penalties put the nerf on these guys in a heartbeat. Even better, what about Lightsaber duels with Dark Jedi? Consider the following:

    Since the Jedi characters are dealing out some serious damage with their Lightsabers, when pit in a lightsaber duel, other powers that are not normally needed can suddeny be life savers -- Reduce Injury, Control Pain, Remain Conscious, etc. etc. Combine some of those with Lightsaber Combat, and say. . . only Danger Sense, Jedi Master is now looking -5D or 6D during combat rounds. Not so godly anymore, huh?

    The last thing on this that I think throws most for a loop is a poor understanding of the rules. On the net, I've seen quite often people interpreting Lightsaber Combat, for example, and the multi-action rules like the following:
    Lightsaber Combat allows a Force-user to add his or her Sense skill to attacks, and Control to the Lightsaber's damage code. Since Lightsaber Combat requires a use of Control and Sense to activate, all other actions afterward are at a default -2D penalty. So let's say the Jedi Master has 10D in Force skills all around, and 6D in Lightsaber. Simply attacking once and parrying in a round, he rolls with a -3D penalty. His total attack bonus will look like:

    Attack -- 13D == Sense (10D) + Lightsaber (6D) - Mult-action penalty (-3D);
    damage -- 15D == Control (10D) + Lightsaber Damage value (5D)

    But. . . that's not how it works. The Multi-actions penalties STILL apply to the Control and Sense skills, even though they are being added as a bonus to attack and damage. It should look like:
    Attack -- 10D == Sense (10D) - Multi-Actions (-3D) + Lightsaber (6D) - Multi-Actions (-3D)
    Damage -- 12D == Control (10D) - MA (-3D) + Lightsaber (5D)

    Makes a big difference, doesn't it? I'd almost say, though, that all of this is really besides the point: From a role-playing perspective, how much sense does it even make that the player is just having his character charge in and swing? It doesn't. Lightsaber Combat allows for some good damage, but keep in mind, when it's "up," the character is now responsible to use the extra damage judiciously; you need to be subtracting from the damage value of your lightsaber more often then not to avoid senseless slaughter.


    Myth: "Jedi Consulars are the heavy Force-using class. Gua
  2. HansHunkyChest

    HansHunkyChest Jedi Master star 1

    Oct 6, 2003
    Myth: "Dark Side Points in Saga Edition don't carry a stiff enough penalty"

    Dark Side Points are like a good-o-meter for GMs and Players. Unless you want to play some sort of Sith campaign DSPs are mainly reserved by the GM to keep Force using players from killing everything in sight. I think the idea that accumulating DSPs should have some disabling game mechanic is a holdover from the d6 rules for Force users. Accumulating DSPs is a surefire way to get your PC turned into an NPC by a wise GM. Save for very specific types of games there's no reason Force using Players ought to be racking up DSPs. When they do atoning through using valuable Force Points or performing acts of dramatic heroism is a pretty good punishment. At lower levels it is easy for a character to gain far more DSPs than they can hope to burn off by using FPs. They have to watch their behavior closely from then on to keep their DSP count down. Because Saga changed how Force powers and Force Points work it only makes sense they changed how DSPs work as well.

    The base rules for DSPs work well for most game situations but easily allow for house rules or extended rules to be provided in later supplements. I imagine the Force Unleashed supplement will contain some new Dark Side rules that fit on top of the existing ones. I think DSPs should have been better explained in the SECR (like so many things) but I honestly don't think the rules are in any way gimped. I also don't think previous DSP behavior would fit the Saga rules very well.
  3. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Nov 8, 2001
    That's not really a Myth for any system post-WEG for anyone who's played and enjoyed WEG. That's your opinion. ;)

    I'm sure there were plenty of us who hated it that you could for some high-WIS Jedi need 22 Dark Side Points to go Dark in RCRB rather than the 6 *maximum* that you would need in WEG...

    'cause, y'know, it's supposed to be a heroic game...
  4. Blithe

    Blithe Jedi Master star 4

    Jun 24, 2003
    Here's one that always cracks me up a little bit:

    Myth: In the printed version of the d20 RCRB, Force Strike is the new Force Push.

    Even though picture depicted below the power descriptor is, in fact, Dooku TKing Anakin, Force Strike was not intented to be, nor initially was a Force Push-like ability. The explanation on Jedi Counseling said that they wanted to divide Force Push up into something that inflicted the pure kinetic damage (Injure/kill from WEG anybody?), and then something to heave stuff. However, most people simply assumed it was supposed to be Force Push, though there is clearly no rules for moving the target back with the kinetic blast. Many often assumed you could just move the target back up to the 10 meter range of the skill. Others made house rules. Popular demand for the return of Force, and in no small part to new canonical evidence of an ability that moved the target as well as inflicted damage, pushed WOTC to tack on the Force Push option to Strike.

    Myth: "In d20, Disspate Energy is not overpowered anymore since it was nerfed in Jedi Counseling."

    Please. You cannot even use Disspate Energy until the damage soaks into your WP. So the whole point of using it is to avoid dying, right? If you are in that perilous of a situation, you do not have that much to lose to simply burn a FP and easily making the save, despite the "10 + damage" errata. Losing a FP - one of many for Force-users - is a much better alternative to dying. Quite simply, Jedi who have this feat are still nigh-on impossible to kill with energy weapons - or even Force Lightning - save heavy artillery.

    Myth: "WEG does not let you play as a Dark character like WOTC does."

    Strangely enough, I've seen this one quite a bit. This is most likely because WEG more heavily emphasized the point of SW being a heroic, much more so than WOTC. The fact is this simpy is not true. Not only were players, with the GM's permission, allowed to play a Dark character (generally with the intention to eventually redeem the character), but there was even as special section devoted to help run Dark Side PCs in the 2nd ed. and R&E Core Rulebooks. Sure there wasn't a whole sourcebook dedicated to it like d20, but the option was still available.

    Myth: "WEG SW is unfortunately outdated now when it comes to the stuff from the Prequel Trilogy. Take Force Jump for instance. There is nothing like that in WEG. And Enhance Attribute does not provide enough of a bonus for huge, Force-assisted leaps."

    Wrong. And again, I have to wonder if this is simply players not having a clear understanding of the rules, or not paying attention. It is true that Enhance ability can, at the max, only give you a +3D to one attribute, that does not mean that WEG cannot accurately depict Force Jumps. Take Luke in the carbon freeze chamber. The guy completely rocketed out of there. Luke's Climbing/Jumping skill as of TESB is, what, 6D-7D? The DC for jumping out of the Carbon pit is heroic (DC 30+). Luke uses Enhance Attribute. He gets the +3D bonus to Jump. He can now jump at a total of 9D for that one round. His average roll would be, like, right on the money.

    Now if you do not think that Luke's jump was as good as some of the prequel stuff, like a Mace Windu or something, then that's fine. You could probably just consider that Mace trained himself extensively physically. His jump was probably at least a wee bit higher. Personally, I imagine after Enhance Attribut Windu would be jumping somewhere around 10D or 11D, a plenty for some of those magnifcent leaps. If you are still not satisfied, or convinced, a Jedi Master could easily make the Telekinesis roll to increase the distance. . .
  5. Koohii

    Koohii Jedi Master star 5

    May 30, 2003
    Myth: "Defels don't reflect light, and are therefore invisible."
    No, Defels don't reflect light, and are therefore Black.
    Plus, they have to wear special visors to see "normal" range. Who gets to say what color the visor is? Oh, that would be the GM...
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