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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Discussion Diversity In the New Saga [See OP Warning]

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Future Films - Spoilers Allowed' started by Pro Scoundrel , Nov 20, 2016.

  1. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    Well great now I have THAT mental image. But yeah I agree. Comic over-sexualization does not work in comics and sure as hell would look bad on film. Which is why I want the female sith of the films being just like the male ones. Black robes maybe a cape all that jazz. Oh course depending on the area possibly battle armor.

    Not to get off topic but the male superheros in spandex always came off to me as more in line with, as Gail Simone said, "Adolescent male power fantasies" and less as sexualization. Superman looks like he does more for the sake of empowering the male reader and less for the titilation of the female reader. The opposite is true with female characters.
     
  2. ladygrey45

    ladygrey45 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2015
    I think the female Sith should have bad ass clothing, like long capes, something you know not overly masculine because why should she have to dress like a man would to get respect but something not just for little boys to get excited about.
     
  3. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    "I'm Luke Skywalker. I'm here to rescue you. And check out my banana hammock."
     
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  4. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    I've seen too many panels of sexy Spiderman and such (like I said, pushing his butt straight into the readers face) to believe that it's only about empowering male readers. Also it seems like a small double-standard to say that the same style of drawing is used to objectify women but empower men. I could use the statement in the reverse and there would be about the same evidence. That's not me saying that you can't critizise or dislike the art style, that's me saying it's a bit unfair to call an entire medium sexist when it's done to both genders.

    Talon's reason for running around half-naked seems messed up. "I'm so sensual and that's why I run around half-naked, even in combat..."
     
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  5. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    Fair enough. I guess just have not payed enough attention to Peter Parker's butt. It is worth mentioning that most male heroes are drawn as if they are not nude intentionally to make it easier to drawn the muscles under the suit. There are certainly times when the male character is drawn that way for the sake of the female readers or the character's crotch is front and center but the point I am getting at is that the character's designs are not meant to be that way it is just the artists choice while a massive amount of female characters don't even have the option to be drawn in a non revealing way due to how the costumes are. Sure Spidey can be sexualised but at least he is not half naked like the standard Black Canary costume. I get what you are saying though. In a lot of cases (Liefeld onwards) we have had the overly musculatured men for female readers. Though I will still stand by my statement that the industry does have a lot of sexism just that it can be attributed to both genders. An industry can be sexist to more than one gender at a time.
     
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  6. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    We are in agreement here. :)

    I think the message to take home here is to just not sexualize characters in SW. Sex simply was never really important in SW and I don't think it would be a good fit. There's no need for a Darth Talon whether male or female.
     
  7. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    Yeah. I don't think under Kennedy we're going to see much more of dancing twi'leks wearing skimpy outfits.
     
  8. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    The difference between male and female characters in spandex in comics, as one of my friends simply yet effectively explained, is:

    "The male character's bodies are emphasized to show how powerful and awesome they are, so that the reader wants to be like them."

    "The female character's bodies are emphasized for sex appeal, to make the readers want to date/sleep with them."

    And yeah, all too often that is the case. And I'll give TFA this much. For as poorly as I think they handled Captain Phasma as a character overall, they at least gave her a cool look that didn't remotely rely on sex appeal. So there's no reason why they couldn't do so for a more prominent/important female villain (Sith or otherwise) as well.

    Come to think of it, if they end up doing more Anthologies set in the OT, or immediate post-ROTJ era, then I'd love to see Rae Sloane show up as a major antagonist/threat. She's a cool character.
     
  9. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    Yeah sex and even romance are not super at home in the GFFA. I mean this franchise did give us LukexLeia. [face_sick]
     
  10. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 8, 2014
    Just wanted to say all the men of color in Rogue One were represented well. Really cool seeing a big budget Hollywood film as diverse as R1. Kathy Kennedy should really get the respect and admiration she deserves by talking the talk AND walking the walk when it comes to bringing more diversity to films.

    Hopefully in upcoming movies we can see more women of color represented as well. Excited for Kelly Tran's role in VIII.
     
  11. ComfortablyNumb

    ComfortablyNumb Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2016
    Sex was always part of Star Wars. Leia was an object Han and Luke squabbled over, she wore dresses with slits up to her hip, in Jedi she was basically naked (my wife just saw Jedi again for 1st time in 20 years and she remarked that she was naked).

    The movie would not have been as popular without it. That's the world I grew up in. But these days, it's offensive to use sex that way, so we just amp up the violence because it's so much healthier... blame PG-13 for that one. It made movies more prude but allowed gruesome violence for tweens
     
  12. ComfortablyNumb

    ComfortablyNumb Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2016
    Two thoughts on Finn:

    1. He was a storm trooper of no special ability so it makes sense that he would be closely matched to other storm troopers. Because of the character arc, he couldn't be badder than the others because that would have been picked up during basic training and he would have been recruited into an elite force of some kind.

    2. Hollywood is NOT focused on making big budget films for the US market. They must be global. This is why GI Joe was an international team, for example, ridiculous as that was. Black men are a small percentage of the world movie going public and the box office receipts from Black Africa are an afterthought. African American me are only 6% of the US population. But women make up 50% of the movie going public worldwide. The math is simple. Female protagonists are an easier sell. Buyers and distributors care about diversity only if they can monetize it. Currently female leads monetize better than black male leads. But there's nothing to say this will hold. Will Smith has the highest per movie average of anyone.

    And on a side not: Muslim is not a race. That people are lauding RO has asians AND a Muslim man shows ignorance, considering how many Asians follow Islam. The idea that it matters if a Muslim person is cast is ludicrous considering this is another Galaxy before biblical times. Earth religions are meaningless. The is a difference between inclusiveness and discrimination. Personal beliefs shouldn't matter in casting. You can't see someone's religion on screen and it wouldn't make any sense of you could.
     
  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I think the issue here is not that sex is offensive, but objectifying women--making them objects for men to squabble over--is offensive. And it should be. And two women squabbling over a man as a possession would be offensive as well, as we are talking about human beings with agency, not objects.

    It's possible that the violence has been amped up since we were kids, although the heart ripping out in Indiana Jones was as brutal as most anything in a PG-13 film today. And I would agree that in the US we could be less prudish about showing consensual sex between partners with equal agency. But Pevra and others are right in that there is no need for a female warrior to be dressed like Darth Talon.
     
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  14. chevv

    chevv Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    May 10, 2016
    She would seem like a good fit for that. The whole "evil white man" trope of the Empire is getting stale.
     
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  15. Tatooine Twilight Twins

    Tatooine Twilight Twins Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 1, 2014
    But according to the book "Before the Awakening" Finn IS actually pretty darn elite. The top 1% in all of his trials and tests. And the author didn't just make all of this up. He got the overall background info of Finn's capabilities from the Star Wars story group. He said this in an interview that virtually all of the background info he used regarding Finn, Rey and Poe came from the story group.


    And white males make up 31% of the USA population and yet make up the vast majority of leading roles coming from Hollywood films. When it comes to big budget Hollywood movies white males may make up about 90% of the leads (no actual data here....just guessing a number based on all the movies and trailers that come my way). Granted considering all of the western countries out there that Hollywood markets its films too there are certainly plenty of white male moviegoers buying tickets. But considering the increasing non-white market (who make up most of the world's population) and the fact that at least half of America's and the globe's society are made up by women how can Hollywood justify such OVER-REPRESENTATION of white men as lead characters? And this is the disconnect that I see. There has been no over-representation of, say, black males in leading roles in Hollywood films. Ever. In no year does such representation ever actually match the percentages of African American men or African american people in the country or going to the films and certainly nowhere near the representation of black people in the globe, particularly those that support cinema. There has only been about four black male cinema superstars in my time (Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy, Denzel Washington, Will Smith) who could open a film. They all didn't have careers at the same time, they all don't just do big budget studio films and they are not guaranteed to put out movies in the same year. So considering that, and even considering there are those rare opportunities in which a black actor who is not a huge star gets a leading role in a blockbuster pic, there may be years in which a black male may have the a leading part in one or zero big-budget motion picture in a given year. So why is the argument so often framed as if black actors and actresses are already getting enough lead roles, or may be getting too many roles considering their actual numbers? Why is that folks push back against more diverse casting considering how few opportunities people of color are getting in general as leads in tentpole films? Why is it never framed that it is white people who are getting roles in disproportion to their actual numbers in the population and their actual percentage of moviegoers. Last year it was reported that in America Hispanics go to the movies in greater percentages than even their actual sizable percentages of the American population (they may make up at least 25% of the box office participants for big studio films right now), while white moviegoers make up a smaller percentage than their actual population percentages. So in effect it's blacks, Hispanics, Asians and women in general who are underrepresented in these films. Meanwhile white males are disproportionately over-represented across the board. And yet that last fact is never made an issue in these conversations. Hell, we have people in this thread who have gone after the casting of too many white female leads while leaving white male leads off the hook. An abundance of white female leads hasn't been a problem during the last four decades of Hollywood, even white women are underrepresented based on the numbers. An over abundance of white male leads though has been a problem.
     
  16. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Absolutely. And the "evil white man" trope MIGHT be used as a representation of white supremacists/white nationalists, who are far too prevalent and loud in many countries right now, not just the US--the UK, France and Australia have their grossly-over abundant share as well.

    That said, though, as I have mentioned elsewhere, I would love to see Ciena Ree or Rae Sloane on screen.
     
  17. Random Stormtrooper

    Random Stormtrooper Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Jan 18, 2016
    Well said

    Happy to see more diversity
     
  18. Khaiden

    Khaiden Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2014
    Hopefully there will be a bit more diversity in the upcoming films, unlike Rogue One. The characters were great of course.

    (Talking about the main characters here).
     
  19. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    I'd actually prefer that Emilia Clarke play an Imperial Officer as well. It would suit her and be something different in these films. Heck she could maybe be the main villain/antagonist even.
     
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  20. Palizinha

    Palizinha Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 12, 2015
    I was actually hoping for an alien, because I kinda want more of those in the movies and I feel like the Han movie is a great option for an alien lead besides Chewie, but yeah I'd also love if she was an Imperial. The movies really need to catch up on the Imperial diversity of the books, comics and, to a lesser extent, Rebels. It just looks inconsistent otherwise, especially when Bodhi is an ex-Imperial himself.
     
  21. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    An anecdote from a Mexican man who was happy to see Diego Luna in Rogue One.

    Here
     
  22. chevv

    chevv Jedi Padawan

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    May 10, 2016
    The link between the Empire and the Nazis is pretty well documented, but that didn't have to mean they go right back to the same old shtick for TFA. It's beginning to read as "evil white people suppressing everyone else - it's time for the minorities to rise up and take control!" In a world as diverse as Star Wars, I can't see a faction with as much reach as them being limited to such a small portion of the galactic population.

    There are plenty of different types of evil prevalent in human history that they could pull inspiration from.
     
  23. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Expert At Modding Casual star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    The "same old shtick for TFA" is a common complaint against the film, and it goes way beyond just the FO. Also, the leader of the Resistance is white. The new protagonist is white. The wise Jedi master is white. The scoundrel hero who starred in TFA was white. So, I'm not sure how you're drawing your conclusions. Maybe "the minorities" should rise up and take control of Hollywood.
     
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  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I don't know how anyone gets "the minorities should rise up and take control of white people" out of any Star Wars work ever written and produced, whether by Disney or before.
     
  25. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016
    devery jacobs almost played Rey, I hope we'll see her in some anthology (or even in Star Wars IX). She's fantastic
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