ST Diversity in the Sequel Trilogy (see warning on page 11)

So what? Both times Rey “turned the tables” were self-defense. Self defense isn’t a rational opening for bonding. Except, abs!

 

To be fair, and I'm not really trying to start an argument here, but the 1 or 2 days thing goes both ways. In TFA, she knew both Finn and Han for a total of 1 or 2 days tops.

 

And neither of them tortured her, massacred people, or maimed people she cared for while she watched.

 

But beating your enemy down time after time does make you feel sorry for them sometimes, especially when you learn that what made them into what they are hits close to home.

 

In this context, her enemy was at the near top of an organization massacring her friends as they spoke. Wasn’t really the time to feel sympathy for him.

 

Okay. I never said that they did. But also neither of them have had this strange, mysterious, and personal force connection with her. I would never try and downplay Kylo's crimes, but I think if I were Rey, I'd be pretty interested in why the force is connecting me with this person as well.

 

No it doesn't. Let's switch this since I'm male. If a female tortured me 2 days ago and I beat her in self defense multiple times, I would in no way whatsoever feel sorry for her or bond with her regardless of her reasoning or past hitting close to home. I sure as hell wouldn't care because I saw her abs.

 

In this context, from any rational perspective, suspicion is what was called for. But again, abs. Fire. Intimacy.

 

Exactly. Then there was that sideways blush thing as well. God, I really dislike what Rian did to Rey.

 

The abs scene takes place in a completely different scene than the fireplace scene. And if we want to get really technical, we don't even see his abs thanks to his uber-stylish high waisted pants, #KyloRenChallenge. Of course there's intimacy - these two have now been experiencing reoccurring instances of face to face conversations regularly for a few days now. But there's really nothing overtly sexual in the film. I might even go as far as to say this: If you were either Rey or Kylo and were experiencing these regular instances of force connections, wouldn't you want to understand them more? Is all of this happening for a reason? What would happen if I touched this other person during a connection, is that even possible?

 

from any rational perspective suspicion of Finn is what would be called for in TFA. How did Rey and Han bring a lifetime first order stromtrooper to the resistance base 1 day after meeting? They knew he was reformed and not a spy because he said so?

 

Finn was claiming to be a big deal in the resistance as far as Rey knew before she was kidnapped and tortured.

 

Rey didn’t bring Finn anywhere, but at that point she had been saved by him multiple times. Han watched Finn kill STs. Neither of them were hurt by Finn nor did they watch Finn hurt people they cared for. They also didn’t bond with him while the people he commanded slaughtered their friends.

So I mean, you say “of course there’s intimacy” and you’ve already lost me. I don’t think that’s an “of course” situation. I think that’s a situation that makes zero sense and reduces Rey to one of the oldest sexist stereotypes in the book.

Edit - if I was Rey, I would immediately tell Luke what was happening and ask for help as to what to do. I would never in a million years trust Kylo while he’s slaughtering my friends. I would be singularly focused on what I could do, how I could use this, to hurt him and defeat the FO.

 

Han was bringing Finn to the resistance before he saw him kill stormtroopers. Before the 1st order attacked Maz's castle Han was there to get her help to bring Finn & Rey to the resistance.

 

Oh that’s right. Taking the deleted scene into account, Han knew Finn was a ST. When in SW have STs been anything but fodder? An undercover ST wearing ST boots doesn’t make sense. Han knew what Finn was immediately, and also knew he had nothing to fear. That’s not Han taking Finn’s word as Finn was actively lying. That’s Han being perceptive and accurate. Quite a different thing.

 

Well, I guess that's where we differ. I don't feel that the scene reduces Rey at all as a character, but I'm also choosing not to look for sexual tension there. Am I saying that it doesn't exist in the scene? No - if you look for it, it's absolutely there, lol. But, I think it's crafted in a way where if you choose not to see it, that works too. And instead, you might see two very confused individuals recognizing that, for some reason, the force is connecting them in a very personal way.

And Rey's agency is further demonstrated once she goes to Kylo, takes on the Praetorian Guard with him, but then sees that he starts to act like the monster that she had originally thought of him. And after Rey sees that, it's done. She's crushed, obviously, because she really thought her vision was coming to life. But she rejects Kylo, because she's not an idiot.

I definitely think the first part is debatable, and there could be points made on both sides there. But Rian chose to show that Rey felt betrayed and rejected by Luke - and since she's having these uncontrollable connections with this particular person, she decides to tell him.

 

"I am sad because my parents will never come back to me and I have a lot to deal now but let's talk about your backstory, Ben"

 

Doesn't matter. It's great that she was able to do that, but it doesn't make him any less of a creep because he still tried. The intent was still there, he just wasn't good enough to finish the job.

It doesn't suddenly become less bad, what he did, just because she beat him.

 

but I think some one who did what she did to him twice would come out of the ordeal less traumatized and more likely to think of him as a poor pathetic fool and not a torturer.

 

Anyone seeking to apply real world logistics to a situation where two people have literally occupied the other’s mind to such an estent that they fully understand the other more then any other person they’ve ever known while also possibly being physically attracted to each other on top of that is missing the point.

So much of Star Wars has had story turns based around visions, mind connections, probing and sensing good or bad in another.

Anakin fell in part from a vision that seemed real enough to him to change his entire course. Luke right to the end was driven by the goal of not becoming the Vader shown in his cave vision. He also had a vision of the future and acted on it. Luke believed in Vader because he probed and sensed the good in him. Palpatine and Vader felt Luke could be turned when they saw his anger come out.

The bond between Kylo Ren and Rey is Force-powered and of the mind. It’s established very clearly that when they touched they saw the future as clearly as Anakin did see Padme’s death and that vision was similarly misrepresentative. Rey was looking for someone to save the day more than anything else. First she thought that person would be Luke Skywalker. And then his nephew. It took her time to realize the next Jedi hero would have to be her. She saw a vision of the future where Ben Solo sought to save her and “turned” and killed Snoke and misread that as the end of the war with Ben Solo killing his Master and becoming a better person and ally of a Resistance effort lead my his own mother. She saw the future and believed it. Why wouldn’t she? She saw the island and the books and found them both. She saw Finn thinking of Running and convinced him to stay. Why shouldn’t she believe her visions and her ability to people when she’s done both on screen? More than that she knows the history of what happened between Luke and Vader and saw this as comparable to what would end the war.

Johnson has said in podcasts that he also saw her character trait of believing her parents would return and that they didn’t really abandon her as something that the Dark Side would influence and would be the kind of thing that would lead to a setback. This is her second act and she’s dealt a personal blow in her optimism. Optimism that is perhaps one of her biggest Light side strengths.

Every trope concern expressed in this thread about her and bad boys and Beauty and the Beast-like Stockholm syndrome is being used by design to worry both the people unaware of the tropes and those who do. She’s a young adult going out into the world she knows beyond Jakku for the first time in her life. To expect her to avoid missteps entirely isn’t realistic. That she makes mistakes that are more psychological than physical doesn’t make her any less interesting as a protagonist. The vast majority of people who aren’t Reylo fans wants her to make the right choices moving forward. The only way Ben Solo gains her respect or trust from here on out is if he takes the FO down from within.

It also can’t be understated how brutal it is for this entire arc to lose Leia. There’s no doubt she was being planned to play a huge part of the finale with her son and Rey.

 

I literally said nothing about sexual tension. Whether there’s sexual tension or not, my point is the same.

I also didn’t say anything in this discussion about her agency. This was in response, I think, to what I said about intimacy not at all being a given in this scenario. Rey choosing intimacy in this context isn’t an example of her lacking agency. It’s an example of RJ writing her as a stereotype.

Right, she’s betrayed by Luke for saying no, so she turns to her torturer and the murderer of her friends. Makes all the sense in the world.

 

She's not choosing anything, though. She's forced into these intimate situations with Kylo. They happen, seemingly, at random. Are you saying that her talking to Kylo about her cave experience is RJ writing her as a stereotype?

I actually feel that's a large part of Rey's arc as a main character and as a main player in this story. You're completely right. In TLJ, she's absolutely 'looking for someone to save the day.' I think that's an intentional character flaw. In TFA, she's constantly looking for her parents to return. When she 'gets over' that, her sights change to finding Luke Skywalker, because she knows he will save the galaxy! When Luke disappoints her, she forms a strange connection with Ben Solo, touches hands with him, and sees a future that seemingly shows him turning from the dark side. Perfect - the only hope for the galaxy isn't actually Luke, it's Ben! No. I think by the end of TLJ she has learned that no one is going to save her friends for her. If she wants to save her friends, the Resistance, and the galaxy as a whole, she needs to lead the way. I think this is heavily symbolized during the floating rocks scene following Luke's "And I will not be the last Jedi" line. Rey is the Resistance's and the galaxy's hope now (put extremely simple). She will be the one to lead the galaxy out of this darkness. Putting her faith in old legends, and lost souls isn't going to cut it this time around.

 

Of course she chose. She chose to lie to Luke about this “connection” she didn’t understand with the guy obsessed with locating and murdering Luke. She chose to sit by a fire with Kylo and open up to him about her intimate thoughts. She chose to reach out and touch him in that very intimate setting after reassuring him that he’s not alone — and all that at the exact same time he’s murdering her friends.

 

Part of the problem is that neither TFA nor TLJ establish a rich context for Rey’s relationship with Kylo, and it’s a shame because from a purely dramatic standpoint, their scenes are very good. To an extent, they accomplished something that the prequels attempted but flubbed, an emotionally charged relationship with a young woman trying to pull a young man back from the dark side.

If we knew that Rey and Kylo were brother and sister then that would provide context. If Rey had been fully trained as a Jedi by Luke, and been charged with trying to redeem another fallen Jedi, that would work too. Unfortunately her character just doesn’t get that development. It’s a failure by the writers.