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Discussion Diversity in the Sequel Trilogy (see warning on page 11)

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by Rickleo123, Nov 29, 2016.

  1. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    It's called fiction. They could've made up fictional cultural elements that have an African flavor. Rather than using actual specific cultural themes from different & distinct cultures, then just slap them all together. They could've invented a fictional African sounding language. Instead they use an actual language from southern Africa, even though Wakanda is supposed to be an east-central African nation. The point is, to ignorant non-African folk (me included) it all looks fine bcs it's "African". To (some) people who are from there it looks as stupid as having a fictional European nation, whose people dress, speak & act not with a blend of European styles, but a weird combination of specific influences from Italy, Germany, Spain, Norway, England etc.
    It's debatable that they are in BP. Also, in Asia, Africa & in many other places there's fierce rivalries between nations. Troubled histories. A lot of people would consider their cultural identities getting blended together with their neighboring countries quite offensive. To use another example, imagine if Marvel showed a fictional "Slavic nation" & slapped together a hodge-podge of themes & customs from Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia etc. There would be calls by some in those countries to boycott the movie.
    He still did not desert. His intentions were honorable. He'd discovered that the FO could track ships through hyperspace. His concern was for Rey. What you're describing shows that he's depicted as a human being, rather than a perfect unrealistic 1 dimensional character.
     
  2. RandomGreyJ

    RandomGreyJ Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2016
    He still wasn't technically deserting since he never formally joined the Resistance or said he'd stick around after helping take down SKB.
     
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  3. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Fearless Vampire Killer star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    Sorry that Black Panther makes the sequel trilogy's "positive" inclusion of POC look as progressive as Gone With The Wind but it is stretching credulity to whitesplain to African nations about how they should be upset by a portrayal of national unity.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  4. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Yes, so noble was finn that he had to sneak about and look nervous when poe asked rose how she and finn met. So noble was finn, that the movie has to teach him to fight for a cause instead of abandoning the doomed rebels.

    The actors that played T'chaka, are both african (as well as real life father and son).

    Here's a picture of the two of them at a premiere.

    [​IMG]
    Notice how pissed they look at the way there are no "real" Africans in the film.

    I guess "real" Africans are as pissed about an African-American man portraying an African character as white americans are at the fact that Spiderman, Dr.Strange, and Superman are portrayed by british men instead of americans.

    Here are some excerpts from red carpet interviews:






    Oh my god....he's just frothing with fury. He talks about how the people on the continent were just waiting to riot and tear everything down because....ummmm...... because they are finally depicted in a manner that doesn't cast them as downtrodden and living in the dirt. Yeah....i'll bet they were super pissed by that. Its interesting that you try to color African people as seeing African Americans as completely not connected to them at all. I mean....you do still refer to African people as "colored" so i guess you'd know what the hell you're talking about. Lets ignore the global acclaim this film is getting. Lets ignore the cultural impact its already having (including African athletes from all over the globe, crossing their fists to their chests before they perform.). Lets ignore all of that because you gotta defend TLJ at every point. Someone said its put to shame by two films that handle POC and female characters light years better? Gotta step in with some utter nonsense. Lets ignore finn, the bumbling space janitor and rey, the text book MS that is unrelatable on all levels, while some how mirroring bella swan in her strange attraction to a murdering psychopath.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  5. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Y’all know I love Finn. He’s my favorite character in the ST.

    But I disagree with a lot of the arguments in defense of him here. One, he was most definitely Resistance by the end of TFA, which is how it should be. He was the only stormtrooper with the inner strength to look around Jakku and go, “**** this, I’m not doing it anymore,” and walk away. Sure, it took him awhile to figure out whether he actually wanted to join the Resistance or hide for awhile, and that’s understandable, but by the end of TFA, he certainly seemed to me to be solidly “with the Resistance,” as he said. Not still trying to figure things out. His trying to escape to find Rey was just that—to find Rey—because the last thing that happened to her was her being knocked out by Kylo Ren and carried onto his ship. He can be “with the Resistance” and still want to find Rey at the same time. Just because Rose did not think those two missions are compatible does not mean she was right.

    As far as the “traitor” part—being called a “traitor” by anyone in the First Order is a compliment, and Rose calling him a “traitor” was an excuse for her to tell him what to do.
     
  6. cerealbox

    cerealbox Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    You're right that he's only human. So him skipping out on the Resistance, in their most desperate hour, doesn't make him a deserter.

    However he took Leia's tracking device, Poe's backpack, and planned on taking one of the Raddus's life pods (something they could very well need in a later emergency)

    So Rose had every right to tase him.

    Black Panther spoilers
    That would be like if Bucky woke up in the middle of the Black Panther movie after Killmonger took it over and just left.

    Bucky: "sorry guys but I'm not Wakandan. Not my problem."


    Technically speaking, that's the whole point of agent Ross when he wakes up in Wakanda.

    Imagine if Ross did like Finn did, after Killmonger defeated T'Challa.

    How ungrateful would that be


     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  7. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    @anakinfansince1983 TLJ shows Finn as not having found his path yet. I'm basing this off the movie. I can't retcon TLJ and go back to my TFA impressions. Finn is okay leaving the Resistance behind as long as he and Rey are safe. It's not that he is opposed to their cause or to helping them, as the movie also shows--since as soon as a WAY for the Resistance to survive is presented he goes with that instead. He would prefer to help, if possible. He just didn't think it was possible before they came up with the idea about disabling the Supremacy tracking.

    There's even that line that was cut in which Finn says Rey gave him something to fight for (but that was Rey herself, not a cause). At the end of TFA he is clear that he is only on SKB to save Rey. That's what he tells Han.

    I had assumed that by the end of TFA, when Finn got Phasma to lower the shields and faced Kylo this marked his commitment to the Resistance. But that was my assumption. Finn never said that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  8. cerealbox

    cerealbox Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    True about your last sentence.

    That's why I always hated Finn was put in a coma at the end of TFA.

    It took away any resolution Finn would have had at the end
     
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  9. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    @cerealbox I disagree that Rose had every right to tase Finn. She didn't know most of this stuff, only that he would of course be taking the escape pod. I don't know if I agree with the tasing of deserters or not.
     
  10. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I don’t agree at all, and if I did, I would find Finn spineless, unprincipled and emotional, and I would not like him.

    I have no problem sticking with my TFA impressions if any impressions that I am “supposed to” pick up from TLJ are degrading to a character that I like, and if there is a way to interpret TLJ that corroborates a non-degrading TFA interpretation of the character.
     
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  11. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 8, 2014
    As a black American man, I didn't need a African american hero in BP because the majority of the movie takes place in a (fictional) African country. Killmonger wasn't a villain in my eyes, and I love the way he was handled in the movie. He's what Kylo Ren should have been.

    BP also touched on a REAL issue in Nigeria happening right now about Chibok schoolgirls being kidnapped by Boko Haram. It also touched on child soldiers. I thought it was great that this movie brought that issue back into our heads telling us that this is still an ongoing issue in Nigeria.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  12. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    How can your position be true when Finn's arc in TLJ is about finding his path? That's what his character development is about. It's not that in TLJ he learns he dislikes the FO and wishes they would be stopped (that was the case in TFA too). It's a matter of committing to the fight or not and in the beginning he hasn't committed yet which is why he was going to leave. Like, there's no way around that he was going to leave. It's in the movie.

    Your post is like saying you want to change what happened in the movie in your head to spare Finn your harsh judgments.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  13. cerealbox

    cerealbox Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    If it's military protocol. She has every right to do it.

    The fact that Finn lies to her face about it doesn't help matters. Finn knew he was in the wrong.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  14. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    What's with this "whitesplaining" business? I thought we were just all SW fans. Now we're supposed to somehow know what color each of us are, & choose the way we express our opinions accordingly. Time for me to hit the eject on this conversation. Any differing pov seems to get attacked & the credibility of the poster (even based on their color) is personally questioned.
     
  15. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    But is it protocol? Rose is a mechanic not internal security. I thought she was watching the escape pods because her sister had just died protecting the fleet and she will not let anyone escape when her sister died for them.
     
  16. cerealbox

    cerealbox Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    If Leia's resistance operates like any military navy vessel while underway, then being security also counts as Rose's duties along with mechanical maintenance.

    Especially if it's her post.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    @oncafar : Yes, he was going to leave—to get Rey. Not for the reasons he left the First Order on Jakku. That’s why I don’t consider his leaving to be some sort of wishy-washy-ness about the Resistance. He can simultaneously want to get Rey and believe in the Resistance. Just because Rose did not think he could, does not make her belief true.

    I’m not changing what happened in the movie. I am interpreting what happened in the movie differently from the way you interpreted it. That does not make me wrong.

    @cerealbox : I did not see the Resistance as a dogmatic organized military force, certainly not the “shoot people who aren’t loyal and ask questions later” version that the Imperial or First Order military was.
     
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  18. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    I don't know... another interesting thing is she isn't armed. She's using a tool to shock people. It really seemed to me this wasn't necessarily a Resistance practice but she in particular hates disserters, especially on this day.

    He believes in the Resistance cause (in that they are the good guys) but what he *says* is clear. He doesn't think they're going to make it. He is intending to break with them because they are going to get destroyed by the FO. His plan was to take a pod and go somewhere safe, so that when Rey arrived following the beacon, she would be safe. This is why Rose says he is selfish because it's all about him and Rey and not the Resistance.

    Unless we are having confusions regarding what we mean with our words, I don't see how.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  19. Troopa212

    Troopa212 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2016
    Don't forget as violent savages that need to be civilized by foreigners.
     
  20. Troopa212

    Troopa212 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2016
    I'm sorry but this sounds way too similar to the conversation he had with Maz in TFA.
     
  21. cerealbox

    cerealbox Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    But it's not shoot first and ask questions later.

    It's subjugate first and interrogate later. Like the real life military.

    I think you guys are comparing Rose's actions to a cop on the street and not a military person on a military vessel.

    There's a world of difference.
     
  22. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015

    Oh yes, thats also a classic. My favorite is "cannibals". Living on the most resource rich continent, being mostly vegetarian, yet europeans depict you as cannibals.
     
  23. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    But it's what Finn said. He told Rose the fleet was doomed and that if Rey returned to it then she was doomed too, so he was going to take the beacon far away so Rey would find him and be safe. That's in his dialogue.

    Committed to the Resistance is more like Poe who will stay until the bitter end trying to find a way to prevent that end.

    Finn comes around of course when Rose helps come up with the Supremacy idea. That changes his belief the fleet is doomed. His path in the film is to switch from only Rey being his "cause" to it being something greater.

    And I mean, one might realize that Finn has never had anyone before. What Rey is to him is huge. She was the first "thing" he had to fight for.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  24. Troopa212

    Troopa212 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2016
    I didn't mean it like that, I just meant the way you put it it sounded way too similar to his arc in TFA.
     
  25. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    what do you see as a better way to put it?

    @cerealbox I don't know that the Resistance is as regimented as the U.S. military...
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018