ST Diversity in the Sequel Trilogy (see warning on page 11)

Not to dismiss anyone's sensitivity to it being used, in part, for humour.


But the joke is that Finn periodically possesses intelligence of the FO that greatly aids the resistance. The resistance member naturally assumes, without prejudice, that Finn held a rank and/or position of some tactical or administrative significance. But the truth is that he was just very observant and mindful of things that were above his station while performing the duties his actual rank and position attracted and deserved. (the rank and position given to him by the evil bad guys)

Conventionally, or traditionally, (real world) Finn's "intelligence" would have been dismissed out of hand based on prejudice. It would be assumed that the likes of Finn, would only have been a janitor at best. So anything that he might know about the FO is not worth wasting the time to even listen to, never mind trust.

I can fully appreciate that , overall, prejudice deserves or requires something less oblique to address it and, ultimately, to affect. That's if its inclusion is expressly designed to have a significant impact on the audience and convey an unequivocal message on the issue.

Does it contribute to the problem by not expressly functioning as a strident instrument of the solution? .

Perhaps If the argument over where prejudice originates and how it should be tackled is sidetracked and not enhanced by it. But then it is the audience that chooses how to conduct that argument. Not the movie.

Not to go off topic but a previous example is when Obi-Wan took one look at the first Gungan and the first young Tatooine slave-boy he'dever seen and declared them both "worthless". That's categorically prejudiced. But I'm not sure that it's ever recanted, except tacitly by Obi-Wan's adoption of Anakin as his padawan. (although in the movie it is ,ostensibly, motivated only by the desire to honour Qui-Gon. the prejudice that was explicit in Obi-Wan's attitude is not addressed explicitly thereafter - unless I'm misremembering ).

 

Here is the thing: they aren’t just hiring known white male directors to direct movies or series, they are also hiring them to write them even when these guys are not known for their writing skills, or have much of writing credits to brag about. And that severely limits opportunities to, as @anakinfansince1983 said, expand their talent pool.

I mean, Star Wars has always worked best when it was a collaborative process between different creative minds. Even ANH wouldn’t have been the movie that it was if it wasn’t for GL’s wife’s input. Did you know that Marcia Lucas had a huge creative input the final space battle of ANH? And needless to say, the widely regarded best SW movie to fans around the world, TESB, was the combined product of four different creative minds.

Personally, I think no Star Wars movie should ever be given to one single man who both directs and writes it, as I feel like it's too much of a monumental job that should require perhaps three different people with different skills, sensitivities and/or backgrounds. I really, really wished someone more skilled had scripted the space battles for Rian Johnson in TLJ, as well as someone more sensible had had some input in his female and POC characters (or really, any character that was not Kylo Ren).

And as a response to a previous post about “no one is stopping women and minorities from writing a script and getting what they want”, I have posted a link some pages ago about Nicole Perlman’s story and her fight to write a movie she had herself pitched (GOTG), because even though they liked her pitch, they still didn’t want her write it just because she was a woman, because “women don’t write sci-fi”. The process of writing a movie for a big franchise is still a process of giving someone a chance, but that chance is much harder to obtain when you’re not a white man. Sexist and racist prejudices are still a thing in Hollywood, and the only way to prove everyone wrong about it is by consciously and actively giving a chance to talented minorities.

 

They just hired another White guy to write/produce their live action TV show. I mean I have nothing against Jon Favreau, I actually quite like his work overall, but come on LF? Really, again?

 

@anakinfansince1983 Finn does not portray a janitor.

I don't think it's any different than if someone asked Finn what his job was and he defiantly replied "Not a janitor, if that's what you're thinking!". In that scenario, Finn owns the conversation about prejudice, if it is one.

But it would not be a contribution to the solution either.

Tackling prejudice and stereotypes doesn't mean thought policing, i.e. not giving anyone the excuse to perceive a person's position as casual or tacit approval of a stereotypical image or vice versa. Finn certainly isn't portrayed as a stereotypical janitor (or any type of janitor) and the acknowledgement of his specific military station does not imply a stereotypical view of race in the military.

Finn IS portrayed in the movie as a member of a squad that protects Kylo Ren during a crucial mission to retrieve intelligence on the FO's greatest enemy. Not every trooper gets to do that, I would assume. At one point though, he cleaned the heads on bases and ships like all boots do for a certain minimum amount of time.

 

Are you saying that the small handful of directors so far appointed have been hired because they are white & male? That's a huge accusation. Not only from an ethical perspective but from a competence perspective. They would be idiots to hire base on that shallow criteria. What they should be doing IMO is hiring the person who they think will do the best job. In cases where it's line ball involving a person from a social, gender or racial group who is underrepresented they should always opt for that candidate. In addition, they should actively encourage people from those underrepresented groups to apply for roles. And go out of their way to expose themselves to their work. Having done all of that, each decision should still always be based on merit alone. Then when people of any race or creed are hired they'll know they earned it purely due to their skill-set & their ability. So far post-Lucas there have only been a few writer & directorial roles. That's far too small a sample size to throw around accusations of prejudice. At this early stage, what it should be IMO is a "watch this space". Which the brass at Disney/LFL will be well aware of.

I get the context, up to a point, & thanks for your explanation. My take however is that as long as there's a consistency across all of the Saga with a variety of characters, having Finn once perform some menial duties as a trainee soldier shouldn't be controversial. Would it be better or worse if Finn was once a scavenger (Rey), or a criminal (Han), or a murderer (Kylo), or a farmhand (Luke), or a slave (Anakin)? Part-time janitor as a young person is looking pretty good compared to those other characters' backstories. Clearly it's a SW thing to have most of the prominent characters coming from very humble backgrounds. That's why Finn being assigned to some cleaning work in his past is not out of place. I think the best thing to do with all characters, no matter who portrays them is simply to have them fit in with the established patterns & narratives of SW.

 

I just think they should do more to add diversity. It's not wrong to have white males, but they should be noticing that this is almost all they have, and be working on how to add diversity. So far there is no indication they are doing that.

Also they seem to have this focus on bigger names? Are they afraid to step outside of that?

 

Finn having janitor duties in the FO should have been used for its irony - a funny contrast point to where he was in the Resistance, but it wasn't. Finn's skill set and depiction doesn't rise above average-janitor guy with a good heart - a stereotype. That's why the choice to make Finn assert his janitor past, as a joke, is problematic. It was revealed in a scene demonstrating how little he knew about what he was doing - a stereotype. And the payoff for the scene was that Han upstages Finn's courage for a cheap laugh.

 

JJ Abrams
Gareth Edwards
Rian Johnson
Ron Howard (and the 2 who were replaced)
The 2 Game of Thrones creators
John Favreau

All have 2 things in common. Their skin colour, and gender. That's 6 projects all going on at once, so why are they all from the same small demographic?

Again, I'm not saying that Disney is being malicious while doing this. It all stems from inbuilt prejudices in directing, which is why they need to break from the mould, or no progress will ever be made. How will we know if someone is qualified for this if they never get a chance? In another 40 years, will we still be saying racial minorities or women can't direct or write SW, because only White males have proved they're qualified?

(Also Dave Filoni, but he came before Disney. Though, thinking about it, 100% of the directors under Lucas fit into this category too. So that's 40 years with the same skin colour and gender.)

(As for writers, for tv and film at least, only 2 women spring to mind. Leigh Brackett, who's script was heavily re-written after her death, and Katie Lucas, who kind of has an advantage getting hired by Lucasfilm.)

 

Star Wars should not be the place where the inexperienced get experience. It's a billion dollar franchise...for now. Filmmakers, writers, et al get their experience by working on independent projects, getting good enough for an agent to take notice, build an audience and so on. You don't just get Star Wars as your first gig. Ryan Coogler, the director of Black Panther, was working in the industry for years and went the Sundance route like most directors. This is what I mean by creating your own thing. You gain experience, build an audience, and eventually work your way to much larger jobs by networking. I'm not saying there aren't any female or POC directors that haven't done that already, but the pool is smaller.

At the end of the day, Kennedy is a salesperson will use any means to sell her product. If she can get some butts in the seats by paying lip service to diversity, she will.

You are assuming that just by hiring women and minorities that they will expand their talent pool. You have no reason to assume this. Skin color and gender does not make a person talented. And Kennedy has proven to not be the best judge for hiring the right people. So just as she's not hiring very good writers who just so happen to be white men doesn't mean she's suddenly gonna hire talented women and POC.

That has a lot to do with audience perception than anything. There were plenty of female authors who wrote Sci-fi but under male names because readers didn't think sci-fi and women mixed. Same thing for men writing romance, a lot of them wrote them under female names for the same reason. Things have changed and I believe more women are putting their name on their novels, I don't know if men are doing the same. But all this says to me is that both men and women are sexist in their perceptions of the opposite gender. Also, my point is more for going the independent route over begging mainstream media for inclusion. At the end of the day, the audience just wants good old-fashioned escapism and entertainment and they are willing to support whoever gives them that. If you make something good, you will get support and then mainstream media will be knocking on your door and you can laugh while turning them down.

 

Star Wars should not be the place where the inexperienced get experience. It's a billion dollar franchise...for now.

Yet they continue to hire unproven young white male directors for their projects. I loved rogue one, but edwards was still largely unproven. Same with Trevorrow. Don't even get me started on Rian Johnson. Even after burning the momentum of the ST, a director is being rewarded with even more projects. If they were about hiring white males with experience, they'd be throwing money at spielberg and any number of highly proven and experienced directors. Instead they're getting these young guys who have mostly done indie work.

 

Again Hollywood had no problem giving Colin Trevorrow (who had one micro-budgeted film under his belt), not one but two massive franchise films. But Ava DuVernay (who also made acclaimed smaller films) has trouble getting her phone calls returned.

That encapsulates the problem right there. Heck even Rian only had moderately-budgeted films under his belt before TLJ.

 

And this is why this trilogy is a hot mess and why Kennedy is in over her head and why Hollywood sucks in general. My point is not that Kennedy is right to hire these guys. I hate the JJ/Rian trilogy. R1 was okay, it was better than TFA and the Darth Vader scene was the savior of the movie. But it's not a 10/10 and so far I haven't had the desire to ever watch it again. I've never seen any Colin Trevorrow movie but judging by the other hiring choices I had no high hopes for him. The answer is not "If they are hiring these inexperienced white men then they should hire these inexperienced women/pocs." How does that make a better movie? And if you think Kennedy's hiring choices have not been great then why do you think she will get any better with women and pocs? For all you know, she could just end up with a diverse pool of no talents. And Kennedy is the prime example of a woman in charge who doesn't know what she is doing. But yeah, I'm probably gonna repeat myself again, so I'll leave it at my original point that Kennedy pays lip service to diversity to sell her movies and poc/women creators should stop sitting on the sidelines with your hand raised waiting to be picked and just go out and make what you want to see.

 

It's actually revealed as surprising comic relief to Han's impression that Finn is conspicuously well informed in a way that is particularly beneficial to their mission. As if Finn is too good to be true.

When Finn's frank, honest answer surprises him his reaction is one of someone who had, by that point, become mpressed enough to consider him as big a deal as he mockingly acknowledged him previously and was trying to deal with the fact that the guy is admitting to only being a janitor.

The alternative for Finn was to also admit that he had also worked hard enough and performed well enough to graduate to an ostensibly elite company of troopers detailed to the right hand man of the Supreme leader.

We had already been through Finn's shameful admission of what he was to Rey and how only his first mission in combat as a death squad member forced him to choose. It was sad and full of pathos.

The admission to Han, that sidesteps the arguably less attractive military resume he gave to Rey, is designed to give welcome comic relief to the back part of Finn's sad story, which is growing inversely more heroic as it progresses.

 

Are you still trying to defend the whole space janitor thing? I assure you, it wasn't some deep move on the writer's part. It was a line placed for stupid humor as it contradicted everything about the character. I can forgive once, but then they doubled down on the space janitor thing in the sequel. Its a horrible coincidence that your first black lead is also the first character who's background is mopping floors and doesn't seem to be good at anything. At least he makes us laugh.

 

On the bright side, no one in the FO is good at anything, and he's better at things than the rest of them.

 

You actually think Finn presents in the movie as a professional janitor who just decided to fight the FO? That's ridiculous. He's shown as a trained fighter. Using various weaponry including melee weapons. To the point where he can hold his own for a time against a powerful Force user with a lightsaber. It's not like his "skill-set" as a fighter has been depicted like this.

We don't know who they've been in talks with. Who they've considered. Who they've hired to gain valuable experience in assistant director roles & other crew roles.

What if in their opinion his previous work including the big budget special effects-heavy Godzilla was proof enough?

More than 2. They all also have impressive CV's behind them within their industry. Do you think any of them were hired because they're white or male?

Hiring a person of color as a director because they're a person of color is not a solution. It's a short-cut. A headline grabbing stunt. How would you suggest they even do that anyway? Should they only consider black people for a particular directorial role? Telling white candidates "Sorry, you're white so forget it". Or, should they let white people go through the pretense of applying even though they have no chance at the job? Or should they decide on one person of color for the job & speak to no one else? What if that person then looks KK in they eye & asks "Did my appointment have anything to do with my color?", & Kathy doesn't lie, is honest & answers "Yes". What then? How would they feel? The thing is, people in these discussions think they're being all nice & fair & charitable. Yet in all likelihood the people of color in that industry would not want to gain roles like that. As I said, the studios should make great efforts to speak with & consider as many people of diverse backgrounds as possible. There are all kinds of things they can do to help those people become the best candidates. The one & only thing that people of any color in any industry should demand is not that they're hired bcs of their skin color. Rather, that they're never not hired bcs of it. I don't think anyone can seriously claim, & back up an accusation that Lucasfilm has engaged in that type of prejudice. Therefore in each case they've hired the person who they thought at the time would best do the job.

 

If you’re a conscientious defector from the Nazis, and wish to gain the trust of your new comrades. Do you tell them that you were promoted to the einzatzgruppen right before you deserted? Or do you only admit to the one credible duty that you actually held that distances you from that stigma, while still validating the intelligence you are providing in order to gain their trust?

 

The only thing that's realistic for a rank & file stormtrooper to be good at is being a fighter. Finn is a good fighter. In fact he may be the greatest stormtrooper in history since he actually hits his targets with a blaster. Not to mention having dare I say it, Mary-Sue like qualities in displaying expertise in star-ship gunnery from the first attempt.

 

Do you think this is why JJ wanted Boyega and not Jesse Plemons or whoever it was? I wonder if the whole janitor thing was reverse-engineered from that whole corny trash compactor joke. They really only seem to use him being a janitor to say why he knows the location of of everything in TFO.
The janitor thing never bothered me like the jedi bait-and-switch did because they clearly show him capable of other things like the use of melee weapons and blasters and they never show him mopping floors. If all his weapons were makeshifts creations from brooms and mops I would have had a problem. Though I do think they could have gone further in showing his proficiency with other weapons like that deleted TFA scene did. JB seemed to like his arc and the progress his character made in TLJ a little more and I tend to agree with him.

 

Exactly! It's simply a case of "How can a soldier-stormtrooper know all of these logistical facts that we need him to know to serve the story?". It really is nothing more than that, perhaps added with the long established habit of giving SW heroes lowly past jobs.

 

I'm not willing to assume that they aren't just giving he roles to those who give the best pitches. I don't think it has much to do with experience until recently when they had some trouble with those less experienced picks.

I've said it before, but it really comes down to those investors investing in the base level of directors. You don't get the opportunity to pitch unless you've done something. Open that pool and you'll naturally get more diversity.

 

It bothered me a great deal. Not only is it a dumb joke told at the expense of their character development, but its tone deaf. Then they turned around and doubled down on it. Meanwhile, they're hyper sensitive about any criticisms toward rey and will label anyone as "having a problem with women." if they level any at her character. How can you be so watchful of one form of negative depiction while being insanely blind towards another. That doesn't fly with me. I don't buy it. They pat themselves on the back about diversity, but clearly they only mean women because who on earth would think Finn is the breath of fresh air black people have been waiting for. "here is a cowardly bumbling janitor. diversity!". The first time around i honestly asked myself during my viewing, "is this a troll? what is this?" For the sequel, my attitude moved towards "you know what. **** you too. I won't be back.".

 

The way you feel about it is the way you feel about it. That can’t be questioned & is not up for debate. We can however discuss alternate ways that some of us view this. My response would be that Finn in general is shown to be heroic to the point of life-threatening recklessness. The issues people have with the Rey criticism do not include her background as a scavenger. Nor the continual labelling of her as one. Even to the point of characters dismissing her as “nothing”.