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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Diversity in the Sequel Trilogy (see warning on page 11)

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Rickleo123, Nov 29, 2016.

  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    “Scavenger” is not a terrible stereotype of a female character. That’s why it’s not being discussed here in relation to diversity.
     
  2. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    The janitor thing doesn't make sense in that droids would be doing all that stuff.
     
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  3. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Expert At Modding Casual star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Good point.
     
  4. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Scavenger is also not a specific negative stereotype for a person of color. Yet if Finn had that background & was continually referenced as such I feel sure we’d hear the same complaints.
    Of more relevance is this. Everyone, including those who complain about Finn know there’s a difference between a janitor & a soldier who’s been assigned some janitorial work in the past. Finn is introduced as a soldier & his character type is that of a soldier come freedom fighter.
    Pretty sure in the military it’s more about learning discipline & completing any & all tasks asked of them. Rather than a functional need.
     
  5. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    People have made the military arguments before, and it's true I know nothing really of the military.

    I keep forgetting to tell @cerealbox that novelization agrees with you regarding Rose being assigned to stop deserters.
     
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  6. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Maybe the writers assumed some basic layman knowledge & perhaps that was a mistake. I'm sure people who do know a bit about soldiering, including those of color would not have batted an eyelid at the references Finn has made to those types of duties. Because of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KP_duty

    "...all junior enlisted personnel assigned to a mess would be put on a roster and regularly receive assignments to KP duty on a rotating basis. KP duties, however, can include any tedious chores in the military mess at an installation or in the field, such as food preparation, although not cooking, or the more obvious dish washing and pot scrubbing, sweeping and mopping floors, wiping tables, serving food on the chow line, or anything else the kitchen staff sees fit to assign to its KP crew".

    Conclusion: the entire enlisted military of many countries are comprised of "janitors".
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  7. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Are you sure this is about discipline and not more that someone has to do it so naturally it is those at the bottom of the hierarchy (which it pretty much always is in human society)?
     
  8. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Both. Soldier "grunts" begin as trainees & some menial duties are required as part of that. It's also about learning to obey orders, no matter how dull or unappealing they may seem.

    The thing to remember about Finn is that he was created as a character first & cast later. Kasdan came up with the idea primarily, & fleshed out the role. As a soldier of the FO, having some history of performing "KP" duties would've been part of that. Particularly since it was used as a means to impart logistical knowledge of the FO to serve the plot. That role was then available to be filled. What we all want is for people of all races to be equally considered for every position & role within every industry. Boyega was no doubt hired purely bcs he's an outstanding young actor. Who was perfect for the role. Surely no one is suggesting that any other consideration was given. I seriously doubt that Boyega, or any other actors of color would want the writers to have to rewrite a story or a character just bcs of their ethnicity. They're professional actors & artists. They'd want to fit in with the vision of the writers & the director, serve the story, & be treated no differently to their fellow actors.
     
  9. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    Okay but what about how it is used as humor?
     
  10. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    What about it? Are petty duties assigned to soldiers a taboo subject? Off limits to humour?
     
  11. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015

    He got bodied in single combat against a storm trooper. He didn't fire a single blaster shot in TLJ. He also lost to phasma until rose distracted her.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
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  12. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2017
    The decision to make Finn a janitor is particularly baffling because it is redundant as far as explaining his bumbling, comical demeanor. He's already a stormtrooper! Stormtroopers are the dumbest, think-for-me dudes in the galaxy, so why did they have to make him a janitor on top of that? I think it's a combination of not being immersed in the source material and a failure to reflect on their own prejudices and whether they might be missing perspective.
     
  13. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    I'm rather sensitive about these things coming from the working class and having witnessed my mother work herself too much in these kinds of jobs. Her back is in terrible shape these days. And I know also that this is related to ethnicity and there are a lot of stereotypes. These are jobs that are hard on people, that wear them down both physically and in self esteem. The brunt of hard labor is always given to those lower on the social ladder. It's easier if one is only doing such jobs temporarily, or if one doesn't feel trapped. So I feel like especially upper middle class white people usually don't get it, at all. I don't want to even try to speak for non-whites in these jobs, but I imagine it would be so much worse. These jobs hurt my mother physically and emotionally, and I watched it happen. I'd include rich whites but I don't know any.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  14. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Yet in the military, if you're an enlisted soldier you're almost certainly doing some KP types of duties. No matter what color or social class you come from. Finn didn't have a "job" as a janitor bcs that was the only employment opportunity available. He was assigned menial duties during his training, no doubt along with every other trainee. We know that bcs TFA clearly states that Jakku was his first mission.
    Without a couple of incidents like that wouldn't he risk criticism as a "Gary Stu" type character? Let's change those scenes & then tell me if this sounds realistic. A newly graduated stormtrooper on his first mission ever defects due to the mass murder he witnesses. During his escapades he immediately shows expert proficiency as a star-ship gunner, even though he was never trained in that role. He takes out some troopers - with a lightsaber - & then using that saber he single-handedly defeats & kills a soldier who clearly specializes in the use of a similar melee weapon. Later on SKB he nails a couple of enemies with a blaster, literally throws his former master in the trash, & holds his own with that lightsaber against a lightsaber expert, even getting through his defences & wounding him. Oh, he also provided the key information to help destroy the enemies' ultimate weapon thereby saving the galaxy. In the beginning of next movie, just as the last one ended he's still obsessed with saving & protecting his friend. He bests his former FO commander in combat & kills her without assistance. Then later is willing to sacrifice himself for the Rebel cause.

    Personally I think that's a bit much. It's not the character that was written. It's some kind of super-soldier. Probably even one with significant Force ability. If they wanted to create that character in addition to Rey they would have.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
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  15. Troopa212

    Troopa212 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2016
    Beating that stormtrooper would in no way make him a Gary Stu. Every scenario you've presented is literally explained in Before the Awakening. He's trained for literally every scenario of single combat that you've presented. Once again, this is supposed to be canon information.
     
  16. rorow1

    rorow1 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2017
    I disagree with the former and agree with the latter. I think JJA and the SG are immersed in the source material but that they didn't reflect on their own prejudices. It never bothered me or any of the other black men in my family because he's not just a janitor. And going from janitor to elite stormtrooper to a resistance fighter is a journey. Knowing he was a janitor during part of his work on the supremacy and SKB and it being used to provide intel in the movies is fine for me. I think they could have easily given him another job just to head off any pushback that making a black character a janitor would receive but they didn't have anyone in the room to tell them about said pushback. But also my dad had a similar job in the Air Force because of where he was stationed when he got drafted and he doesn't view it as demeaning and he has always taken pride in what he did.
     
  17. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Of course, but he's still a rookie. It's clearly implied that the guy he fought specialised in the use of that weapon, since he's one of the few wielding it in the field. Phasma of course is the Stormtrooper captain. She's supposed to be an experienced bad-ass. In those cases there's nothing wrong with Finn getting a break or two in order to defeat them. That's a classic trope with a lot of heroes in a fight. Look at Obi-Wan vs both Maul & Anakin. At least Finn showed courage by leaping head first into those confrontations.
    Also, apart from all of his physical prowess, skills, & reckless courage he seems to be a fountain of knowledge about all sorts of things. How to evade TIE radar. What stormtrooper masks can & can't filter. The thermal oscillator on SKB. A lot of scientific stuff about hyperspace tracking. To me he borders on being too good & too accomplished, esp for a rookie stormtrooper. Frankly it strains credibility. If rank & file troopers are that good the FO should be invincible. But, this is covered by the fact that Finn is clearly exceptional, hence his strength of will in overcoming years of FO conditioning in the first pace.
     
  18. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016
    I think they care about white woman, Rose Tico got racists comments before TLJ release and I never saw them defending her
     
  19. SomeLoser

    SomeLoser Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2018
    Seriously, there isn't a stereotype about women being desert scavengers, there is one, however, of black men as servants and janitors, bumbling through the plot for "Massa", so, yeah.

    Also, P.S., if that came off as a bit offensive, I'm black myself, I just mean to show why some may take offense to Finn.

    Personally I didn't mind in VII, but VIII almost feels like a pseudo-minstrel show at times.
     
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  20. SomeLoser

    SomeLoser Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2018
    That's what we call white feminism
     
  21. SomeLoser

    SomeLoser Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Jan 11, 2018
    I think the weird thing is that, everyone in the military does janitor work at some point, it's weird that they zero-in on Finn.
     
  22. Oissan

    Oissan Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    How exactly did they "zero-in on Finn"?
    He's just the only one mentioned in that regard because it explains his knowledge about stuff that would otherwise be something a stormtrooper wouldn't necessarily be expected to know about. No other stormtrooper has switched sides and thus needed to explain others why he or she knew about something. And 99% of them don't even get to say a word, so how exactly would it have made sense to bring up the janitor-job for any of them?

    Being a janitor is needed to explain a story-detail. That's it. There is absolutely nothing more to it.
     
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  23. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    What about patrols? He could know where things are due to being on patrol. I wouldn't even need an explanation about why he knows where things are.

    Stormtroopers are supposed to do internal security which would mean knowing where everything is and what level of clearance/authorization is required per area.

    I guess I still feel the janitor thing doesn't make sense because I really believe droids would be doing that.

    But I guess I could see giving the Stormtroopers in training these sorts of jobs as part of the conditioning of following orders. Finn had just "graduated" in TFA.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
  24. SomeLoser

    SomeLoser Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2018
    Why would a janitor know most of what Finn knows and not, say, a stormtrooper who was just tasked with guarding these certain areas? Yeah, they could've just said Finn used to do guard duty on the Supremacy, that he used to patrol Starkiller Base, those are both feasible explanations as well, they specifically chose janitor, though. Despite literally showing that he was, indeed, a stormtrooper.
     
  25. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    I think @rorow1 might be right that it originated from the trash compactor joke and just kept going.
     
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