ST Diversity in the Sequel Trilogy (see warning on page 11)

good points.

 

Do you think "person of color" equates to "black person?" This isn't the first time you've implied that the posters asking for more POC/WOC are only asking for more black people/women, which is kind of bizarre. People use of the "of color" designation as a catch-all for anyone who isn't white and most of the people asking for more WOC in this thread have acknowledged KMT as a positive step (though some of us are still skeptical about how substantial her role will be).

 

No, I don't think it equates only to "black person" - i'm aware of what the phrase means. I think I made it clear that my point overall though is that with various ethnicities under that umbrella, "poc" as a group won't be appeased by individual casting decisions because of the broad nature of that designation, and that on top of that is the fact that diversity is absolutely not just about ethnicity (hence my point that no, diversity isn't achieved just by "more POC"

if you want to substitute "black and ethnic minority" for my phrasing, that's fine. I'm not a fan of the phrase 'poc" or "woc" as it feels a bit too self consciously a step on the offensiveness treadmill for my liking; wouldn't criticise anyone for using it, but for me, I've grown up with "colour" or "coloured" to describe people being offensive, and I prefer to clarify my intent rather than self conciously using a buzz phrase that I don't really like.

 

To argue a counter point to this a major reason why more Whites are casted in roles: is that one they are a majority in Western countries which means a larger pool of people in general and also the lack of those ethnic minorities in America(or the west in general) that have established acting gigs compared to other minorities. In some cases for example it would be almost impossible to get the right representation like in Gods of Egypt as getting Egyptian actors to come over and portray their culture would be difficult since not many of them speak English nor would they be notable to bring out crowds. It isn't also just a Western concept for example Attack on Titan anime/manga was written by a Japanese author however, the characters all have extremely German names and it is obviously implied they are of German Ancestry. Japan doesn't have any notable White Western European actors that can speak their own language so when they made the live action version they had asian actors instead play the role.

Now SW is a great leaping point for new actors as it makes a point to cast new talent and give most people a shot regardless of being a known name. You say "the only thing I see here are people asking filmmakers to give American ethnic minority women a shot" but where is the evidence that they didn't because they didn't get casted? Because that literally is just conjecture at that point.


Also White Woman haven't been denied acting roles in movies for the past century like at all if we are talking movies in general. They haven't been the main characters of a SW movie because the first three films focused on Luke and later decided to focus on Anakin. These are the first films where a Skywalker isn't the main hero.

Finally if mean divert efforts in allowing everyone come out and cast regardless of race and let the director have the right to pick who he feels portrays the character the best without interference from politics or race or what the actor/actress believes than yes I believe in that.

Also to pull from an older comment since I don't want to double post most of them are based around conjecture the fact that they had to insist on John etc you automatically assume there is a racial component because he was insisted upon. You know another actor that a director had to fight hard for in order to be given a shot at in SW yeah it was Harrison Ford. You can't just say oh because this happened there is a chance that it could racism. Finn was a former Janitor nope that could have nothing to do with the fact Finn is an awkward character and that line was there for humor. Ignore the fact that Lucasfilm who manages the story group has all these other cool strong characters who are ethnic minorities.

 

Japan cannot be compared to the West. Actually, not every western country can be compared as the same either. Japan has been a Xenophobic nation for a very long time and that is why they lack the same type of diversity as say America or Britain. They are now very slowly getting there, and have even cast poc in commercials, TV, and movie roles. But yeah it's still few and far between. No one expects Japan to have a pool of poc to choose from. Just like I don't think people expect to see a large amount of poc in a Polish film. Not that Poland is Xenophobic, but because most people don't associate Poland with diversity. Same for Bollywood. America and Britain are different. I can't really speak much about Britain except to say that I've seen way more poc in British films and tv shows than I have in America. But that could have more to do with the type of shows chosen to be shown in America. The majority argument doesn't really hold much ground IMO. Because all it takes to have a poc in an American or British movie is for a writer to write a poc character in the script and for the studio to take the time to cast one. It's not like studios are holding casting calls for poc but no one is showing up.

You're right to a certain degree. But none of us know what is going on inside the casting studio, we can only go by what we actually see taking place and decide whether or not we like it. From what I see, I'm sick of Disney announcing the many woc they are allowing to audition, only for the same type of actress to get the part. I'd rather they not even bother talking about it. Just hold their casting call, hire whomever they like, and be done with it.

I agree.

I agree with this as well. But I will find it odd when only one type of actor/actress is always the right choice in these so called 'open casting calls'.

Was Han Solo originally supposed to be a poc? Or was he written for a white male character and it was just a case of them thinking another white male actor would be better than Ford? Because, the issue in Hollywood is the fact that many characters are not written to be poc in the first place. Just like Finn was not written to be a poc and it took overlooking that fact to hire John in the role.

And yeah, the humor in the TFA sucked.

 

Finn wasn't "not written as a person of colour"; he was written with unspecified race. There's nothing inherently "white" about the writing of Finn

 

Han was a green alien in the early scripts and even when that was changed Lucas still often tossed around the idea of the entire cast being played by black actors. He also considered them being played by little people at one point apparently. The point being that Lucas did not really write any of his characters, in ANH at least, with the intent of them being white, he changed around the ethnicity and went through other minorities all the time when scripting them.

 

in the concept art he's white. it doesn't matter if the casting call was open, people default to white


and it doesn't matter if lucas played around with different ethnicities, because everyone ended up being white


please don't use black people as an umbrella term, it's so reductive. if you're uncomfortable with the term poc, then just say non white people.

 

My point with Lucas playing around with other ethnicities is that it shows that none of those characters (and for that matter any SW character) NEEDED to be white. He and the casting directors cast white actors and that is sad but it is worth mentioning that none of those characters where written with race in mind. Same goes for Finn as you said. It DOES matter that Lucas thought of other ethnicities. The fact that he did not go that way does not change the relevance of that fact. None of the major SW character old or new are written with race in mind. Yes people sadly default to white but like we saw with Finn, that was just for concept art, once the casting happened any race was open and they fixed Lucas's mistake and went with POCs.

 

Concept art has to be painted with a colour, a concept artist picking white absolutely does not mean that that was in the brief or it will then be used as gospel.

And no, I'm not using "blac" to refer to all non-white people. However, I have been responding most directly to people who are using "poc" while actually referring to black people specifically under a winder term, which is something I haven't engaged with, because I've actual;y found and been quite disturbed by the way that a small group on here who are repeatedly talking about Finn's representation and about black people in Star Wars are actual;y refusing to see the conversation in a wider context by including sexuality, gender, disability etc in the discussion. In that context, I think they are being slightly disingenuous if they expect people to accept that by "POC" they are (most of the time) describing anything other than black characters/actors.

 

Says who? Plenty of non-East Asian WOC were very happy to see KMT cast in TLJ. You seem to have this assumption that POC (and black people in particular) hyperfixate on only representation for their own group. If that's the case, I would argue that white women are just as guilty of that as any other group, as there are plenty of WW who argue that yet another white brunette lead is some sort of victory for "all women" irrespective of race and immediately try to shut down any WOC who disagree. See the reaction to Peggy Carter, for example, where WOC were accused of killing the show and being anti-feminist for pointing out the lack of racial diversity. Or, of course, the reaction in Star Wars fandom to anyone who criticizes Jyn's or Emilia's casting (I have plenty of first hand experience there).

And how exactly do you know this? Speaking up about black representation (which would naturally come up when discussing a trilogy that has the franchise's first black lead) doesn't mean you don't care about any other minority groups. Again, KMT has repeatedly been mentioned in this thread as a positive step despite not being black.

 

Exactly! Anyone who would demand or mistake this tread to be simply the 'Blacks in Sequel Trilogy" thread would not be worth reasoning with. There are a lot of glass ceilings to break in this genre and I'll be happy when we get to the time when they are all smashed.

Imagine a galaxy that has been explored virtually edge to edge where the 90% of the humans within it are white, straight, tall dark and handsome/beautiful types--and those who aren't most likely aren't germane to the plot. TPTB, fans (myself included) have embraced Rey as the ST's main protagonist. I wonder how Riz Ahmed, Constance Wu, or Maisie Richardson-Sellers would have been received age issues notwithstanding.

 

I say that they shouldn't have constantly shown Finn with a lightsaber in yhr promo and how seeing him means for black people. Someone makes it all about Rey, how it's okay because Rey is a success, Rey is the victim, Rey is the lead and I should accept this when I never said and thought she shouldn't be. Then the entire thing is framed into a Finn vs Rey convo.

Someone talks about KMT and tired tropes for Asian women. How a tired trope for white women isn't a tired trope for Asian woman because they are depicted differently in the media. Yet again, the first reply the poster get us an outburst about pitting Rey against other women.

Now, saying that Star Wars favors white brunette is an insult to Daisy, Felicity and Emilia.

But the group who wants to talk about Finn, KMT, etc is the one not seeing the wider issue here, of course. Not those who keeps acting as if white women are under attack when we talk about poc.

 

The issue as I see it is that if your terms of reference are as narrow as one franchise for the sake of the discussion (which is what this thread is about) then the only reasonable way to argue for the diversity you want to see is within the wider context of all the different types of diversity that there are, and to recognise that they can't all be solved at the same time, and that attempting to solve all of them at once would probably be so apparent on screen as to be jarring enough that it'd be detrimental to the film at this point (and no, I'm not someone who thinks PC on screen is automatically jarring, just that a self conscious attempt to do it all will stick out massively)

And that's why I'm uncomfortable with quite how vocally and single minded some on here have been in keeping the discussion focused on Finn's portrayal and the perceived problems with it (and why I don't buy that "poc" is always being used in a genuine wider sense, when often it is used only in the sense of discussing Finn and by extension other black characters)
It'd be interesting and constructive to recognise that within one franchise, diversity will be on a wobbly upward trajectory across various groups - if any given star wars film in the future has fewer (say) black people, or if the next two films have a gay character and the third doesnt, those arent steps back - they're just realities of zeroing in on something as limited in scope as the number of main characters in one franchise

 

It would be a waste of time to try convincing someone that they actually don't know the heart of other posters so I'll leave the bolded statement to individual personal perceptions (which are the individual's own to keep or discard).

In TFA, Finn is a lead and a PoC so it's not a stretch to see a lot of discussion focusing around him in the TFA and going forward. Jess Parva had about 30 sec screen time, Korr Stella's time was on par with the diverse but minimal impact personnel along the round table of Resistance HQ. There's a lot of excitement about KMT and BDT roles as well, but they are so shrouded in mystery right now, everything is just speculation. Poe who was slated to die on Jakku was well acted, but a pretty one dimensional phenomenal pilot (something that is pretty common in the GFFA), I hope he's offered more depth and something to talk about in TLJ.

Outside of this narrow reference another big SciFi franchise has been doing diversity well since the 60s. IMO they are light years ahead of SW in that regard up to and including their most recent endeavor, but that said, I'm optimistic about the direction TPTB in SW are taking in the sequel trilogies.

 

Yes part of the issue is that this thread is specifically meant to discuss diversity in the sequel trilogy and not anthologies - I have plenty to say about how Bodhi has been treated in marketing/merch, for example, but that's off-topic here. Finn had by far the most screentime of any POC in TFA, so he (and Rey, as the first female lead) will naturally be the focus. We know Poe will have a more central role going forward and KMT will be doing...something, but without specifics, there's not much to discuss.

 

Who Is responsible for leaking who is considered to be cast? The rumors about Gina Rodriguez, Gugu Mbatha Raw, Maisie Richardson Sellers, Jessica Henwick, Tessa Thompson, Zoe Kravitz, Naomi Scott ETC Those open to all races casting talks, the black or biracial actress being in talks to play Obi Wan granddaughter ( whichis vs but still...).

Having a woc as a main character in the movie has been basically dangled in front of our faces since day one. I don't think its too much to ask whats going on. It's hard to believe that some of the acclaimed actress and the hundred of others who auditioned are never right to be in those movies.

 

The ones that leak are Hollywood reporters and insiders.

I'm sure LucasFilm would rather none of the runner-up names ever be revealed. Or never have it revealed who is up for a part while casting is still underway.

 

Has it? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you are incorrect, but I haven't seen, heard or read anything that would lead me to arrive at this conclusion.

 

An article about Maisie from 2014
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-episode-vii-speculation-693268

 

Funny. Now I wonder if KMT is the Kenobi descendant, who Luke is aware of.

 

I think most people understand that everything is not going to be solved at once. I don't know that anyone has suggested other wise. But I certainly also believe its possible to represent quite a few different groups in a single film without it being jarring.

Also I don't actually see any issue with someone saying they would like to see themselves represented in a SW film, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are suggesting one group receive priority over another.

 

I see. Thanks.

 

Was RO jarring for casting Mexican, Chinese, British Pakistani and African-American actors in significant roles?