CT Do all force users that die staying loyal to the light side become a ghost?

In November or December 1977, GL told Brackett, "In the end, the Emperor does exactly what Ben did; he can also transform himself. As Ben becomes the personification of the good side of the Force, the Emperor is the bad." However, in the rough draft of ROTJ, Obi-Wan tells Luke, "If Vader becomes one with the dark side of the Force, he will lose all identity. If he turns to the good side, he will pass through the Netherworld." I wonder if this indicates that at some point from 1977 to 1981, GL decided that dark siders can't become ghosts.

 

darth-sinister wrote

"He's more machine now than man". Perhaps the bionics didn't disappear, thus they would still be present.

Very good question. When Obi-Wan disappeared all that was left behind was his coat and his lightsaber, but apparently not his other clothes and his boots.

http://starwarsscreencaps.com/star-wars-episode-iv-a-new-hope-1977/61/

 

Maul wasn't resurrected, he simply never died to begin with.

As for the Force spirits, I don't see what's so complex and flawed. Those episodes basically expand on the original idea of it being a state achieved through complete selflessness. The idea that Qui-Gon would learn it himself is a cop out. Why would he of all the Jedi learn something like this? He's not in "better tune" with the Force than everybody else. He's simply more focused (and not extraordinarily so) on the living Force. Besides, Lucas always stated that he learned from someone (a Shaman of the Whills at first, and now the Priestesses).

I would agree that pretending that Yoda didn't know some basic concepts like the dark side being a part of himself (considering that it's part of the Force itself) and he is the one in control is ludicrous. But I guess the audience needed to understand the process and thus they created a situation where it was spelled out to them.

 

Lucas was still figuring things out back then. Remember that the Emperor was normal and the Sith were at one point supposed to worship a crystal that was the personification of the dark side. So I think Lucas was still in that transition when he was coming up with the basic outline for TESB. But then Brackett's draft, it seems that Lucas reversed that decision since Palpatine is presented as a corporeal form that isn't a ghost during the exchange about Luke. Unless he was referring to Palpatine's physical appearance.



Which was more of an alien looking form. This would then extend to what we got in the end.

 

It is still in the film that Anakin's body is burned, film matters more that spin off material, otherwise, ROTJ is rendered wrong and outside writers can go and voided many things from the films.

He left out all this shaman of the whills stuff, it seems he decided to streamline that sub plot and only had the Jedi involved. TCW added whole new groups of force users and characters we don't even see and it is just needlessly complex.

 

We see the helmet and the suit and those things are burned. If the helmet was left off and the head exposed, then it would be accurate. A suit and a helmet can be burned up nicely.

He left it out not to streamline it, but because he felt that Yoda talking to Qui-gon wasn't going to work and so he left it out. And as to seeing the Priestesses in the films, again, who cares?

 

Not anymore. Now they matter equally - at least in theory. And it's a bit hard to refute "organic parts of Vader faded away" when Luke has gone and put the helmet back on the bit that's gone on the pyre.

 

He died on film, there is a close up of his face as we see the life drain out of him. If he died on film, then he had to be resurrected. You can't just hand wave that something that happened on screen just didn't happen.

I view Qui-Gon learning how to ghost from some other group never mentioned before or since is a cop out. The whole point of Qui-Gon was he represented of how the Jedi should be, that he was the real Jedi. If any Jedi would find a way to return from death, it would of course be him IMO. Introducing these shamans and priestesses diminishes his character and his return. I a glad that stuff wasn't put into the films. It doesn't really fit with what the films presents, but then again TCW deviates alot from the films.

 

Good acting on Ray Park's part - but we're not actually seeing "real death" there (since they're not allowed to kill the actor) - so why can't it be "Maul loses consciousness momentarily" - in universe?

 

Going by ROTS, Vader still had a torso, and stumps of his limbs, if his body disappeared then the chest, hip, and shoulders of his suit would collapse from being empty. Plus in the DS2 hanger, we see Anakin die, Luke leans his body on the boarding ramp and doesn't disappear on camera, this suggests Anakin's body didn't disappear as it would have happened right after death like with Obi and Yoda.

As I already said, Yoda talking or not talking to Qui onscreen had nothing to do with the streamlined exchange between Yoda and Obi on Tantive IV. The final film dialog between them is more elegant than the messy scripted version.

That is why I believe there is a duality nature to Star Wars, that the story can happen it several different ways and there isn't a single continuity like Disney pushes. I agree it would be hard for the helmet to stay on the suit with no head to support it which is a good point. Truth is not everything can be fully resolved, Lucas changed his mind a lot and now there are a bunch of different people making their own versions of Star Wars, there is no way it all is going to fit neatly together.

 

He was a "walking iron lung" as Lucas put it in an early interview - plenty of artificial kit attached to that torso to make his lungs work.

 

It could be interpreted as that, but we also see his lifeless body frail about as it plummets down the shaft with his lifeless eyes wide open. Lucas changed his mind and didn't care how well it fits or not, as he views continuity is for wimps.

 

But he still had a spine, hip, and ribcage. The film doesn't indicate if his suit had a built in corset type brace in it or not and ROTS seems to suggest against it.

 

No, we see a close up of his face with a shocking reaction. Everything else his personal interpretation.

But the premise of the new story is that he didn't die. He was bisected and assumed to be dead.

No, you can't. But we never saw him die on screen. We assumed he died as he fell into the pit. But that's it: assumption.

How so? Are we to assume his life started at the beginning of TPM?

That was never stated by the person who created the character. His rebellious nature is just part of his character, not a personification of the perfect Jedi.

How so? What reason is there for the audience to assume that he just stumbled upon that knowledge? None.

 

Obi-Wan "faded" instantaneously - Yoda took several seconds to fade - why can't Anakin take several seconds more?

 

Obi-Wan left with flare; I feel like Yoda "helped" Anakin along, so I can see it taking a minute.

 

Slicer87 wrote

This is similar to Boba Fett's death, he died in ROTJ, yet he lived on in the old EU, different tellings of the myth is probably the best way to look at it.

Apparently the last word of George Lucas on the matter suggests otherwise:

http://comicbook.com/blog/2014/07/1...orge-lucas-says-boba-fett-survived-the-sarla/

 

"The Clone Wars" being a spin off doesn't mean anything. It is and has been canon since the beginning, way before Lucas sold the company. He was the one who pushed for Maul's return and so it becomes canon as a result.

What issues have been created? He's alive and he'll be dead again by the time "Rebels" ends, either this season or next. So un-clench and enjoy yourself.

Snoke and the Knights of the Ren would like to have a word with you. Not to mention that TCW established that other Force users exist. Lucas has long supported that notion going back to when he created the Swan Sensana as a means of blocking a mental attack from a Force user. And later brought back the Whills as a powerful group of Force users who spend their time studying the Force. So his okaying the use of the Nightsisters and Nightbrothers, and the creation of Dagoyan Masters was okay.

And he learned from Serenity and the Shaman of the Whills. The line is vague enough that it could be someone taught him, or he figured it out on his own. Officially, he learned it from them.

 

As far as ROTJ is concerned, Fett died, it was how the film was made. ROTJ was made as the final of the seag and wraps up everything including killing off the villains from Jabba and Boba to Palps and the Empire. In several interviews such as a 1997 MTV interview he states Boba gets killed in ROTJ, which he stated again in 2002. However, he did accept allow Boba to survive in the old EU, so he allowed a duality where both possibilities were "canon." Canon doesn't mean there can't be separate lines of continuity which many fans mistakes canon means. Canon means there are several multiple possibilities that happen.

In the films, Qui discovered it himself, in TCW he was taught it by some new group out of left field, again duality, not singularity.

 

Yes, but a valid premise, directly from Lucas himself.

?!

Yes, that was his original idea, but then decided that Maul survived his injuries in TPM (thus he never died to begin with).

How is it lazy to assume that there are other benign Force users besides the Jedi?

No, what's stated in RotS is that he learned it. Which implies that something or someone has taught him.

One doesn't exclude the other. And no, being willing to bend the rules doesn't mean lack of care for them. He still followed the Jedi way and what the Council requested of him.

 

Uh, Boba falls into the Sarlacc, but according to Threepio, it takes a thousand years to digest. He's not dead unless you subscribe to the idea that he broke his neck, when he slammed into the sailbarge. Thus he is very much alive and could escape. That's how come the EU got away with it.

Except that according to Lucas himself, the show was canon because it was under his control. I like that you are trying to have it both ways, saying that one thing he says matters, but not something else later on. Lucas was not using T canon, G canon, or some such nonsense. What is unsolvable in Darth Maul being alive? He's still going to die by the time "Rebels" ends and we shift into "Rogue One" and "A New Hope". Filoni just killed off three more Inquisitors, citing that they're not in the films and so since they're getting closer to them, it was time for the group to go the way of the Dodo. Simple and nothing unsolved.

"Star Wars" is cheesy and dumb. Nothing new there. And nothing is contradicted by the films. Maul's story was told during the war and in the years before the Empire's fall. And TPM isn't diminished since Obi-wan still becomes a Jedi regardless of killing Maul. The whole point is to not turn and he doesn't. Whether Maul lives or not, he's been beaten and Obi-wan becomes a Knight.

Except that he didn't considered TCW to be a dual continuity. He considered it his own continuity because it was his brainchild and he was involved in it. Ever notice that he never once called the show EU? He never used G canon and T canon? Why is that? I'll tell you, he considered the show canon to his films.

As to the Ren, the idea came in part from Lucas before he sold his company. I bet you wouldn't consider it a poor rehash if Lucas hadn't sold his company and produced the films.

TOTAL FILM: "The Star Wars universe has expanded far beyond the movies. How much leeway do the game makers and novel writers have?"

LUCAS: "They have their own kind of world. There's three pillars of Star Wars. I'll probably get in trouble for this but it's OK! There's three pillars: the father, the son and the holy ghost. I'm the father, Howard Roffman [president of Lucas Licensing] is the son and the holy ghost is the fans, this kind of ethereal world of people coming up with all kinds of different ideas and histories. Now these three different pillars don't always match, but the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves."

--Total Film Interview, 2008.

Thus there is one universe of films and animation. That is what Kennedy is following. You don't think that Lucas didn't tell her that he considered TCW to be canon and equal to his films?

Your assumption is that he discovered it for himself. Canon facts say otherwise.

 

You aren't getting it. The Jedi order had devolved to the point where following organization rules was more important than reaching the organization's goals (which is a real life phenomenon which befalls governments, corporations, etc.), which is a basic theme running through the PT that the Republic is decaying and failing. The Jedi are supposed to do good, but by the time of TPM they care more about following rules and internal politics than reaching their true goal of doing good in the galaxy. Qui-gon wasn't like this, and often defined Jedi rules for the greater good, which cost him advancement and promotions like up to the council which Obi mentions. However Qui was selfless and didn't care about such trivia, are we watching the same films?

 

Just as canon facts once said there were many Jedi and Sith ghosts in the GFFA, canon changes, the films don't unless Lucas changes them. Canon facts often contradict with what the films say and change with the breeze, which is why I often go with the films instead.

 

Because people aren't armed with blasters, flamethrowers and a jet pack with a rocket on top of it when they're tossed in.

Right, and then around 2009-2010, Lucas started tinkering with the idea of doing more films before Bog Iger came sniffing around.

Maul explained that he survived because of Palpatine's teachings. As to the rest, Lucas did care about canon and continuity. He just wasn't anal about it. And if he wanted to make Han and Luke gay, that's fine because that wouldn't contradict things. You do know that in real life, some people don't realize their homosexual right away? Or are bi-sexual.

Filoni isn't involved in "Rogue One". As to any other Force sensitive Imperials, that doesn't mean much. Nothing in the OT said that there wasn't any, nor that it is an issue since he'll be dead by ANH.

Obi-wan is knighted for not turning to the dark side. Whether he killed or wounded him, he's not denied because of it.

That's why Lucas isn't anal about it. He doesn't care about the minutiae details like you do. He just cares about telling a story. And what makes you think that he didn't consider TCW to be the same continuity as his films?

There are always more stories left to tell, which he himself said. So what if he flip flops? It's his right to change his mind and decide there's more story to tell.

See, that's your problem. Your anal about continuity lining up perfectly. That's why you are so adamant that it has to be separate universes, because it disrupts your sense of conformity. You shouldn't let that get in the way. Also, you do know that a spin off is still considered a part canon and continuity? "Star Trek: The Next Generation", "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine", "Star Trek: Voyager" and "Star Trek: Enterprise" are spin-offs and yet, it is still in canon and continuity to "Star Trek". Same with "Highlander: The Series" and "Highlander: The Raven" to the films. "Angel" to "Buffy The Vampire Slayer". "The Flash" and "Legends Of Tomorrow" to "Arrow". "Laverne & Shirley", "Mork & Mindy", "Joanie Loves Chachi", "Blanky's Beauties" and "Out Of The Blue" to "Happy Days".

So that argument fails.