Do all Jedi have darkside moments?

In AOTC, after the Jedi arrive and interrupt the execution, when Obi-Wan finally kills the big green monster (the Acklay), doesn't Obi seem to take a great deal of enjoyment/relief in finally killing the beast? It's one of those moments, as a moviegoer, you might be right there with him, but on further examination, doesn't that strike you as a bit aggressive and a tad on the Darkside? Should a Jedi ever kill in such a way?

In TPM, right after Maul kicks Obi off of the platform, Qui Gon backhands Maul off right behind Obi. One could argue if there is anger on Qui Gon's face as he does it. If that was a moment in which that line was open for an empty handed attack, wouldn't a lightsaber cut have been better, since Maul was most definitely lethal? Was Qui Gon angry that Maul had kicked his padawan off the ledge? Did his anger cloud his judgment, thus the backhand and no lightsaber cut? Was that a quick Darkside moment?

Later in TPM, when Obi is hell-bent on killing Maul, he clashes with Maul and in his anger, Obi is weaker than Maul's Darkside powers, and Obi is force pushed off the ledge. The novelization clearly states that Maul read Obi's anger, and Maul's anger was stronger. If Obi had been calm, the moment would have been like in ROTS where Obi and Anakin cancel out one another's Force push for a few moments.

My questions are: Do you think the examples above are instances where Jedi exhibit Darkside traits? Am I just being nitpicky and the examples above are times where Jedi are exhibiting plain, old human aggression? While this is a PT thread, I keep thinking back to Yoda's words in ESB, "You will know, when you are calm, at peace, passive." Those attributes seem to be what the lightside is all about. Wouldn't the examples above, however minor, be more Darkside actions? What do you think?

 

I think it depends on your point of view....*S*

I suppose the "perfect" Jedi would in infinitely patient, infinitely accepting of or submissive to "the Will of the Force", would never yield to anger, frustration, impatience, hatred, pride, aggression, and the like. Is such a standard of perfection "humanly possible" (using the term "human" broadly here, since the Jedi obviously spanned many species!)? I don't know. I would imagine it to be astonishingly rare, and I am more inclined to say that the Jedi constantly STROVE to be these things, while the best of them succeeded more often than not, and often to astonishing degrees.

I would tend to see most of the examples you mention - with the possible exception of ObiWan's visible anger in the fight with Maul - to be more a case of the Jedi showing their humanity versus them succumbing to the Dark Side. But can understand the question!

Shadow

PS - I suppose some would even argue that ObiWan's pained "NOOO!" when QuiGonn is struck down is not really in keeping with the Jedi ethos - he is hardly dispassionately "accepting" at that moment.

I have noted this before...I think some folks were put off by how stoic the Jedi were. QuiGonn was intense, but fairly even-tempered and even superficially "cool" in his dealings with Shmi, ObiWan, etc. Mace was similarly generally stoic. I know some of the people who saw TPM with me thought the Jedi were kinda cruel in their dealing with Anakin (when Anakin was before the Council), whereas I though they were simply reflecting their Jedi-driven stoicism and detachment (which, I grant you, can come off as somewhat unsympathetic or cold at times!).

 

There is no emotion;

There is peace.

-----------------------

Clearly not true.

If you define "darkside" as not adhering to the Jedi code (and some do), then yes.

Even if not, the answer must still be in the affirmative for humans.

For other species I am not sure.

 

A Jedi Padawan must confront and learn to overcome each of the gateways to the darkside.

 

The Jedi do get angry during combat, to a degree. But I'd say it's more of a focused determination to win, rather than just channeling hate itself.

 

Well, if you adhere to the Council's definition that almost any kind of "negative" emotion leads to the Dark Side, the examples cited would proably fit the bill. To me, I'd say they were just understandable reactions to highly stressful situations.

 

Of course not. This reminds me of one of the more sly stories george put into the prequel trilogy that most people don't even recognize, but once they do they recognize it's brilliance--Mace's path to the dark side.

 

Trials of the Old Order
Trial of Skill

The Trial of Skill usually consisted of a lightsaber duel with either another person or a manifestation of the dark side. The padawan had to prove to be fully trained as a warrior, with the force and for defense and mastery of lightsaber combat. Training for this trial is based on Lightsaber Combat training. Famous examples:

Revan's lightsaber duel with Juhani in the grove near the Jedi Enclave on Dantooine or his duel with Darth Bandon.
Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber duel with Darth Maul on Naboo.
Aayla Secura's duel with the Morgukai warrior Bok on Kintan.
Anakin Skywalker's lightsaber duel with Asajj Ventress on Yavin IV.
Luke Skywalker's first lightsaber duel with Darth Vader on Bespin.
Kyle Katarn's first lightsaber duel with Yun.
Jaden Korr's defeat of three Dark Jedi on Vjun.

Trial of the Flesh
The Trial of the Flesh involved the Jedi overcoming great physical pain, hardship, or loss. It could also test the Jedi's mastery of detachment from physical pleasure and people. Famous examples:

Revan's first duel with the fallen Bastila on the Rakatan Temple or enduring interrogation and torture at the hands of Saul Karath.
Obi-Wan Kenobi lost his master, Qui-Gon Jinn, during their duel against Darth Maul on Naboo.
Aayla Secura suffering through an ordeal where her memories were wiped with glitteryll and she was sold into slavery on Ryloth.
Anakin Skywalker's loss of his right arm during a duel with Count Dooku on Geonosis.
Luke Skywalker's loss of his right hand on Bespin during his duel with Darth Vader.
Kyle Katarn overcoming his anger after learning Jerec was the one who killed his father.

Trial of Courage

To pass the Trial of Courage, a Padawan would fight courageously in battle, complete a mission with a low chance of survival, or defeat a superior enemy. Famous examples:

Revan confronting the fallen Bastila and redeeming her, then finally facing off with Darth Malak in the Star Forge.
Obi-Wan Kenobi defeating Darth Maul during their final duel on Naboo.
Aayla Secura's rescue of Tholme and Nat Secura from the dungeons of Kh'aris Fenn.
Anakin's bravery throughout the Clone Wars, which made him the "Hero With No Fear."
Luke Skywalker confronting Darth Vader to save his friends on Bespin or his final confrontation with Darth Vader and Darth Sidious on the Death Star II.
Kyle Katarn defeating Jerec and the six Dark Jedi.
Luke Skywalker's entire class of Jedi trainees facing and defeating the spirit of Exar Kun.

Trial of the Spirit

"Facing the mirror." ¯Even Piell
To pass the Trial of the Spirit, the Padawan would have to look deep within themselves, and see what they were truly made of. Often times, the Padawan did not like what they saw, and it could be a highly traumatic experience.

Famous examples:

Revan resisting the temptation of the dark side that Bastila gave him on the Rakatan Temple.
Obi-Wan overcoming the temptation to use the dark side during his duel with Darth Maul.
Aayla Secura's ultimately successful struggle with her desire for revenge against Quinlan Vos, which triggered her descent into the Dark Side as the thrall of Volfe Karkko on Kiffex.
Anakin Skywalker's vision during his mission on Nelvaan.
Luke Skywalker's vision in the Dark Side Cave on Dagobah.
Kyle Katarn resisting Jerec's tempation to give into the Dark side by striking down his partner, Jan Ors.
Kyp Durron facing and resisting the darkness within the Massassi Temple on Yavin 4.

Notable variations on Trial practices and special cases
In certain extraordinary circumstances the precise aspects of the trials were not strictly adhered to.

Examples of this:

The Padawan Darsha Assant was assigned a mission to protect a Black Sun operative from assassination and it was implied that this mission would count as her Trials. Padawan Assant was killed by Darth Maul during this mission.
Padawan Johun Othone was knighted by Jedi Lord and Master Valenthyne Farfalla after

 

I think Obi Wan was more satisfied to be free of the beast, rather than killing it. It really left Obi Wan no option, it's not known for negotiations. Plus, by the time he kills it, theres Geonosians and droids comming in left and right..

It was really, just another threat to him.

 

Nonsense. Of course all Jedi have darkside moments. I would say it is more common during the Padawan stage when they are training than later. They must practice to not allow ther anger, fear or hatred to guide their hand - but to even contemplate that these very human emotions are compltely washed from them is ridiculous.

I saw anger in Obi-Wan when he went to fight Darth Maul. It is possible he controled it and refashioned it into determination when he was hanging in the shute - but he definitely drew on the dark side of the force at points in that battle. Anakin we know did of course.

A lot of people have argued over Mace touching the dark side when he faced Palpatine. His Vaapad style had less to do with it than his state of mind. As he stood contemplating Anakin's words that he was not abiding by the Jedi Code, he had to make up his mind as to whether he should kill or try to arrest Sidious. He made the wrong decision to kill him (just as Anakin had with Dooku) because he gave into his fear that Sidious would not be brought to justice via sticking to the Jedi Code and arresting him. The tricky part is that Sidious was faking his 'defeated state' - but Mace did not know that. Mace truly believed that he could have struck Sidious down in that moment he tried, so from his point of view, he was disobeying the code and striking down an unarmed and defeated man. So he did give into his fear and the dark side was with him in that moment in my judgment. Anakin was actually right to stop Mace from striking Sidious in those circumstances per the Jedi Code - but Anakin did it for the wrong reason - his own fear bringing him into contact with the dark side as well. Basically Anakin stopped Mace from performing a damning act while of course, damning himself. "What have I done" indeed.

 

I think it's like anyone. For the most part we try to be good and make good choices. But, there's alway another way we could go.

 

The dark side isn't anger... anger LEADS t the dark side.. Big difference.

 

I agree...but if a Jedi happens to get angry when he is using the force, then it will lead him to drawing from the dark force. Considering what the Jedi were doing in the PT, it would be remarkable, impossible even, for them not to have gotten angry at times when using the force in moments. And it isn't just anger. It is fear, hatred, greed, all kinds of negative emotions that they could have when using the force.

I agree though that just getting angry doesn't mean squat - as long as they are not using and directing the force with it.

 

I don't believe that Mace's decision to kill Sidious was wrong because both he and us, the audience knew that if Sidious were allowed to live, he would conned the Senate into not prosecuting him and have them assume that all Jedi are traitors. Plus, he will enact his Order 66 slaughter upon the Jedi, abolish the government, and tear the galaxy apart with his warmongering schemes...hence why Mace tells Anakin that Sidious is "too dangerous to be left alive". Now, Anakin heard Sidious say the same thing about Dooku but if he hadn't allowed his fear of losing Padme to blind him, then Anakin would've seen the difference between both threats. Dooku is only dangerous to Sidious because he didn't want Dooku to spill his guts to the Jedi about their Supreme Chancellor being a Sith Lord thus leading the Jedi straight into PalpSidious's office with guns blazing whereas Sidious is dangerous to everyone...the Jedi, the Republic, and the billions of star systems across the galaxy. Anakin was wrong to stop Mace from killing Sidious because he was selfish about his need for Sidious's help on the count that he sees him as the only key to Padme's survival and he's just using the Jedi Code as an excuse to keep Sidious alive.

Anakin was being a hypocrite about the Jedi Code being broken since he's been breaking it himself numerous times so he was in no position to accuse Mace of doing the same. Plus, even if Mace were sticking to the code and arrested Sidious, he would still suffer the "Return of the Jedi" treatment where Sidious electrocutes him to death just as he tried to do with Luke.
Except unlike Luke, Anakin will NOT save Mace since he's already fed up with him and he still need Sidious to teach him how to access the power that would save Padme. No matter what Mace does, he will still die, Sidious will live, and Anakin will still turn traitor.

 

I didn't think it was wrong either as a movie goer - but I am not a Jedi. It was wrong according to the Jedi Code.

Huh? At that point, Dooku was the only confirmed Sith Lord; he was a danger to the galaxy for the Jedi - a huge danger. Not to mention that he was the "Known" leader behind such lovely occassions as the battle at Geonosis (with his mini wars with Anakin/Obi-Wan/Yoda); the leader guiding the separtists and their droid armies that were devastaing the galaxy; and he trained wonderful people like General Grievous, Ventress and he had kidnapped the chancellor. How can you say he was not a threat to the gallaxy in the eyes of the Jedi?

I said in my post that Anakin's motive was totally hogwash and wrong. But he was not wrong to stop Mace from killing Sidious because there was a "right" reason: it was against the Jedi Code - not the Jedi way - and Mace allowed his fear that arresting Sidious and abiding by the code would do no good overcome his sense of what was "right" according to the Jedi way. That is not for a Jedi to decide, that is to be left up to the force after the Jedi does the right thing according to the code.

That is not logical. Mace breaking the Jedi Code is not dependent on whether or not Anakin is a hypocrite or what Anakin has done in the past. It doesn't matter who told Mace he was breaking the code, the fact remains that he was and he needed to recognize.

Yup, but Mace didn't know that. He believed he was going to strike him down and kill him. From Mace's point of view, he was breaking the Jedi Code.

Correct! Because of the OT, Anakin had to become Vader somehow. But Mace did not have to break the Jedi Code and give Anakin a ready reason to do so. They could have arrested Sidious together, Mace would have lived, the Jedi would have lived at least a while longer - and Anakin would have visited Palpatine in jail - freed him so he could teach him and been turned at that point. But this is not about Sir Dark Anakin - but about Mace and his darkside moment.

 

As the old saying goes..."All rules were made to be broken".

If saving the Jedi Order, the Republic, and the galaxy meant breaking the Jedi Code, then Mace had to do it by killing Sidious.

Because it was PalpSidious who orchestrated the whole thing while Dooku is just a pawn. Palps didn't want the Jedi to know that until he decides that the time is right which is why he tells Anakin to kill Dooku. Even though the Jedi are aware that Dooku is a Sith Lord, they don't believe that he's the mastermind since he started out as a Jedi until Qui-Gon was killed. Plus, they've been keeping a closer eye on the Senate (thanks to Dooku informing Obi-wan about Darth Sidious) since AOTC, having Anakin spy on Palpatine, and then sensing that "there's a plot to destroy the Jedi".

The Jedi have had their suspicions about Palpatine but they weren't certain that he's the real threat until he told Anakin.

Even if Mace had remained loyal to the Jedi Code, that will not stop PalpSidious from killing him. He's already resisted arrest when he killed those 3 Jedi and made his 1st attempt at frying Mace with his lightning powers. No matter what Mace does, the outcome will be the same as the film....Mace will die and Anakin will swear loyalty to PalpSidious.

But it does depend on Anakin's actions because he never took the Jedi Code seriously even when he started his training but when it came to spying on Palpatine, Anakin suddenly thinks that the code is now worth obeying which is ridiculous. How is it okay for him to do whatever he wants but its a crime when other Jedi do the same? That pesky Jedi code is what got Mace and every other Jedi killed and why both Yoda and Obi-wan threw the code out the window when they decided to "destroy the Sith, we must".

Again, Mace was dead no matter what he does with Palpatine and Anakin will still

 

Maybe Obi-wan was just relieved to be alive???

Ree

P.S. In fact, just read Shadow-Jedi's comment. I feel that pretty much sums it up

 

I would think it would be impossible to completely avoid. I would compare a Jedi having a small, brief dark side moment to be like a pastor at a church still being capable of sinning. They try to avoid it, but, ultimately, it is impossible to be 100% successful at.

 

"fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering" anger leads to the dark-side, it's not dark-side by itself. That's quite important. The Jedi don't let their anger lead to hate, and they don't let their anger consume themselves.

I also don't think that Qui-Gon was using the dark-side when he smacked Maul over the mouth Instead I think it was just a facial expression. I've mentioned this before, but please don't punish the PT actors when they're indeed acting It's only natural to look angry while fighting - that doesn't mean you are though...

 

I don't know about qui gon, but Obi Wan sure looked like he was attacking with anger against Maul!! It is nice that he got his butt kicked though, until he calmed down a bit.

 

I'm with LL. I'm not sure if Qui-Gon fought with the darkside, Obi-Wan was definitely battling his anger and hate when he attacked Maul following Qui-Gon's death.

 

OBW was definately touching the dark-side. No disagreement there. But I don't think QG did, and I don't think OBW ever did again. In any fight you are bound to show facial expressions and feelings resembling anger, but they may still not be anger in themselves...

DarkJediKenobi: Have you always been a mod? If not, CONGRATS

 

Agreed.

I agree, however, Dooku was thought to be a huge Sith threat at that time, that was my only point. If breaking the rules was fine in association with Palpatine, then it also had to be in relation to Dooku. He was the 'active and known' source of evil.

I agree that it made no difference to Mace's situation with Palpatine. But Mace didn't know that. Also, Anakin would not have tried to kill Mace if he had stuck to his plan of arresting Palpatine, so I don't think we can say that Anakin would have sworn loyalty to Sidious at that moment - probably not. However, maybe later when he spoke to Sidious in Jail.

It is not okay for Anakin, nor is it okay for Mace. That is my point. Mace cannot go before the proverbial Jedi God and say "well it is okay that I broke the code because Anakin did too!" To be fair to Anakin, he was trying to obey the code outside of the huge one he broke by marrying. But I agree he was often unsuccessful - that has nothing to do with Mace though. Mace's action had him drawing from the dark side, in my judgment.

 

Jedi or Sith, The Force = just that - the Force in an omnipresent way, in that it's the thing that has the insight, foresight, and "consciousness" (however philosophically a debatable) of the Star Wars universe. The discrepancy in usage is in giving into it or grasping it with intention - a difference between the Dark and Light side (or, rather, Jedi and Sith) in their entirety. Sure, certain acts are repeated like musical themes that err towards what may allude to an action a Sith would take throughout the Saga, but the Force is more or less just that, and not necessarily a divergent entity of two things.

 

But even when Dooku dies, the threat never dies with him because the Jedi know that there's still another Sith Lord on the loose and they've been hunting him since TPM.

Arresting PalpSidious was never on Anakin's agenda which goes back to my point about him using the Jedi Code as an excuse to keep PalpSidious alive. When PalpSidious unveiled himself as the Sith Lord that Dooku told Obi-wan about, Anakin had immediately planned on killing him which he said so to him and to Padme on Mustafar. Anakin is only keeping PalpSidious alive until he gives him the secret of how to access the power of cheating death. Anakin will never let anyone rob him of his only key to saving Padme's life which meant that he would have betrayed Mace no matter what he did.

From my judgement, Mace's action had him drawing from the greater good but Anakin's foolishness got both Mace and the Jedi Order killed. If Mace cannot do what is necessary, then everything that he has stood and fought for is dead already along with him.