Do chistians see Atheist as bad people?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Paranorina, Feb 7, 2002.

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  1. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    It has occured to me that I have seriously hijacked this thread. Is there a similar thread that would be more appropiate for us to continue this discussion?
  2. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    "Both Matthew and John were of the 12, they saw Jesus return, and wrote their accounts of him returning."

    You have evidence of this?


    Cydonia, see my last post. If there is not a more suitable thread then I'll give you my response in a PM.
  3. Ariana Lang Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 1999
    star 5
    "Do you have evidence?"
    Well if you want to get technical about it we have no evidence of anything happening before tape recorders were invented. How do we know someone didn't just make up all that stuff about Napoleon and it caught on so everyone wrote about it? How do we know King Henry the 8th had 6 wives? What if Henry never even lived? What if that's all just a big fairy tale?

    The problem is, no one has hard 100% evidence for practically anything. So you can't ask that question and expect an answer that will satisfy you, because NOTHING is proven history. Nothing. We could have competelely misinterpereted the Rosetta Stone and have been reading the wrong stuff about Egypt this whole time. It's possible. Think about it. Nothing up until maybe WWI is documented on anything but paper. And paper can lie. So you the question "do you have evidence" is useless.

    But you're completely right. This thread has been so totally hi-jacked.
  4. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    Let me come at this from a different angle: As Christians, you probably believe God wants us to read the Word, and the Word is suffiecient, yes? (At least i hope the answer is yes. :)

    Now imagine, hypothetically, some little boy is living on a spaceship in the distant future. His family are scientists. They are an evolved sort, they live in space without much knowledge of the Earth dwellers that came before them. In fact, they don't really know how they came to live in outer space to begin with! Their parents were born in space, etc. Any knowledge of pre space is undocumented. But they are scientists, they have the technology. I hope this doesn't sound lame. ;)

    Okay, they discover a space attic on their space ship, and somehow they can read english. In this attic they discover a copy of the Bible. They all read it. The little boy thinks it's a fascinating story, all the Gods and Monsters! He loves it! He even runs around the space ship pretending he's jesus casting out demons, Jesus is his hero. He tells his family what happened, and they gently tell him that the miracles and explanations in the Bible can't be taken literally, because it goes against science. Still it's a great story, Jesus is our hero too!

    So the boy is thrilled he has found a story book from the old days. As he gets older, it's still his favorite book. He realizes that the things in it can't be real, but he still likes it.

    Unfortunately for him, Just reading God's Word once is a commitment, like it or not. He's read the word, it is his obligation to follow it or go to Hell! Or at least be "eternally seperated from God". He figured it was just a story, he didn't feel any obligations to follow it. How could he beleive in something like Noah's Ark and Jesus' ressurection? Fantastic Tales, but clearly fiction!

    Also unfortunately for him, he didn't have the benefit of christian apologetics who tell him that what he is reading is real, and although it goes against his perceived reality there are simple metaphors and brain puzzles that would in fact make the stories make sense! Yes, they are historical real events because God really meant this even if he really said that, on and on on!

    No, he didn't get the benefit of people trying their best to make him believe something that went against his own common sense. But since he read the word, he's in hell now. Poor space guy.
  5. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Do they think its wrong to belive what they told me in physics class and not in church?

    How is Physics class a problem? I studied various sciences in high school/college, and never felt I was being taught anything contridactory to the Bible. The topic of evoluation, as I said earlier, is sketchy, at best.


    Why is it so importent to life your life from a what..? 3000 year old book, in order to get some respect from those people?

    No one should live their life from the Bible just to get respect from other people. Christains from the time of the Bible spent more time getting disrespect from the majority of people than they did getting respect. But I'm a little confused by your choice of words here. Could you perhaps rephrase or elaborate?
  6. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    No, I want him to read the Bible understand what it is, and use his reason to come to the belief that what is in it is true.

    The Bible doens't have all the answers, it is a tool, not an end of itself.
  7. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    "So you can't ask that question and expect an answer that will satisfy you, because NOTHING is proven history. Nothing. We could have competelely misinterpereted the Rosetta Stone and have been reading the wrong stuff about Egypt this whole time. It's possible. "

    I don't need an answer to satisfy me, because i know there isn't one. ;)

    But from your argument i can see that it's okay to not be christian, and to worship Zeus or Osiris. Like Jesus, they have stories about them but no evidence they existed. Since they are the same evidenc-wise, i'm sure that God, whoever He may be, wouldn't expect me to beleive one over the other! How am i to know which God was the real one? God in all his mercy surely would be understanding!

    BTW, i'm glad you don't pretend there is evidence for Jesus outiside the NT. Beleiver or non-beleiver, you are more intellectually honest than many other christians on this board. And yes, that is saying something. ;)
  8. Ariana Lang Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 1999
    star 5
    You know, I'm getting real sick of you labelling me as a "Christian apologetic" because I express what I believe. I think you're purposely trying to hurl some insult at me, and I don't appreciate it. And I also don't appreciate you twisting my words. Why do you delight in being as difficult as possible? Do you ENJOY fighting?

    And I don't ever recall saying there is no evidence of Jesus beyond the NT, so I guess you can just put me with all the rest of the Christian unintellectuals.






    Does someone else wanna get us back on topic? Because I'm obviously beyond hope. I'm just gonna keep going around in hopeless circles with Cydonia.
  9. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 1999
    star 7
    If you want to discuss Creation adn Evolution, go to the thread about it.
    <p>
    In answer to the question at hand:
    <p>
    Depends on the Christian.
    <p>
    Duh! You can't generalize.
    </html>
  10. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    "You know, I'm getting real sick of you labelling me as a "Christian apologetic" because I express what I believe. I think you're purposely trying to hurl some insult at me, and I don't appreciate it."

    Well, first of all let me say this. I hope no one is taking this personally, i'm simply debating the points being made. I'm sure all of you are awesome people. No personal insults are intended on this side of the computer screen.

    Ariana, i can understand why you're defensive. But i never specifically said anything about you. I didn't call you anything. In fact, i acknowledged that you are using your own brain. You have faith, and that's great. But you don't try to pretend your faith is based on documented proof. Which means you are intellectually honest, something very important, ( to me at least). Please don't take anything i say personally! To me this is just like debating politics.

    Now on the subject of being narrow minded, i guess i just disagree. And this doesn't apply to you necessarily Ariana. To me narrow minded means beleiving everything you read is fact, and not being willing to look something nebulous straight in the face and saying, "You know, this makes sense to me. But i'm not going to pretend i can prove it."

  11. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    No Cydonia, narrow minded is believing there are no explinations for something that aren't your own. narrow minded is refusing to even acknowledge that you might be wrong in something.

    The quote is "I think, therefore, I am" not "I think, therefore I am right"
  12. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    "No Cydonia, narrow minded is believing there are no explinations for something that aren't your own. narrow minded is refusing to even acknowledge that you might be wrong in something."

    No no no! I'm the first to say i don't know the answers to the big questions! I'm quite willing to admit i'm wrong when i am. The thing is, i think i probably know just as much as you guys on what or who God is: nothing! Now is there a possiblity that the bible is true? Of course. Is there a possiblity everything i say is true? Of course. All we can do is look at what we have. You see it one way, i see it another way. But neither of us can prove our points, this is what i'm saying. And if someone can't prove their point, (Christians, in this example) they shouldn't expect other people to accept their points at face value, that's all i'm saying. The necessity of accepting Jesus is a big thing, some people don't make life long commitments to things they aren't sure about. Some people do. I'm probably guily of both!



  13. Face Loran Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 1999
    star 4
    "You know, I'm getting real sick of you labelling me as a "Christian apologetic" because I express what I believe. I think you're purposely trying to hurl some insult at me, and I don't appreciate it. And I also don't appreciate you twisting my words. Why do you delight in being as difficult as possible? Do you ENJOY fighting?"

    Simmer down. Being called a Christian Apologetic isn't a bad thing. It just means you defend your faith against skeptics. In fact, I think its a good thing. If you believe in something that strongly, you should defend it.

    "And I don't ever recall saying there is no evidence of Jesus beyond the NT, so I guess you can just put me with all the rest of the Christian unintellectuals."

    He didn't say they were unintellectual. He said they weren't being honest with themselves on an intellectual level. Now, that might have been an exageration or a generalization, but its certainly not a lie. All faith's require a person to be intellectually dishonest, to a certain extent. Faith requires a person to overlook the lack of proof, to believe for the sake of belief, to take something on faith.




  14. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    History, despite claims to the contrary, is nto a science. it can not be tested or proved, the agreement of multiple sources means it is probably true, but nto an absolute certainty.

    Into throw cydonia's attempts to say that if one part of the Bible is false then the whole thing is invalidated, despite the fact that the bible is not one work of literatuure but many jammed togeather.

    Intellectually dishonest? Perhaps. certainly there is no lab in the world where you could test to see what circumstances might bring a person three days dead back to life. However if you believe in the Christian God, one who can and does work miracles then it is possible. Obviously then you have to test the question of 'is there a God?'

    I invite you to try but I doubt it will be proven either way.

    Science right now can not explain everything, perhaps one day in the future it will. Perhaps it will explain why objects with mass are attracted to each other. Perhaps it will explain the very existence of life, perhaps it will explain not only how the universe was created, but what caused it to be created,

    Perhaps.

    Until then I belive I know some of the answers. I can not prove them, but I believe nonetheless. Intellectually dishonest? Perhaps. But Perhaps it would be just as intellectually dishonest for you to say I am wrong.
  15. Ariana Lang Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 1999
    star 5
    Cydonia: I don't recall anyone asking you to accept my faith. I certainly have not. I am the last person to be evangelizing to people. I find the whole idea of what modern day considers evangelizing rather abhorant.

    I am not remotely asking you to "come to Jesus" ::shudder:: what a phrase! or something equally egotistical. I see your point of view. I ponder it often. I just find it frustrating that you seem to have little room for my point of view.
  16. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    "Faith requires a person to overlook the lack of proof, to believe for the sake of belief, to take something on faith."

    I agree. Faith and evidence don't belong in the same category.

    I also want to add that when i was saying Christian Apologetics, i didn't mean specific people here, Christian Apologetics is a process of trying to validate the bible by any means necessary. It's not a group of people in the way i'm using it, though i guess it could be perceived that way, like "republicans". But i meant it more like "philosophy." An argument, not a person.
  17. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    "Intellectually dishonest? Perhaps. But Perhaps it would be just as intellectually dishonest for you to say I am wrong."

    I refer you to one of my earlier posts:

    "Now is there a possiblity that the bible is true? Of course. Is there a possiblity everything i say is true? Of course."

    Didn't say you were wrong. Just said you couln't prove you were right. Hope you'll extend the same courtesey to me.

    Ariana, i grew up with your point of view. I grew up in the church, my whole family are fundamentalist christians. I was raised on your point of view! ;) I'm very familiar with it. Are you familiar with mine?
    From my experience, even questioning your faith is an act of Sin. If you've moved past that, you're already on the road of "intellectual honesty."
  18. Ariana Lang Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 1999
    star 5
    Since I'm one of the most liberal Christians I know (accept homosexuals in the church?? they say. I say Yeahh...) I have to admit I don't really know where you came from fundamentalist wie. I have always thought that it would almost be a sin NOT to doubt/question your religion. I have found, in the long run at least, it has made my faith stronger if I am able to logic my way through something. I think God wants us to ponder the eternal questions. He wants followers, not mindless slaves. I honestly have to say (and feel free anyone to prove me wrong on this, I am working from my experience alone) that one who never questions his or her faith cannot truly have faith at all.

    Those glassy-eyed people you see sometimes praying or singing or evangelizing scare me, because their lack of intellect and questioning seem to say to me "They would grab on to ANYTHING that sounded remotely probable. They just happened to latch on to Christianity." The ones who don't scare me are the ones who have questioned their faith but time and time again have felt that it has been proven (in their own mind, from their own experiences) that what they believe is true. These people, who I unfortunately am not one of, who can systematically and logically list their reasons for believing in something that at first seem paradoxically illogical are incredible. (i.e. C.S. Lewis. Fantastic!)

    I believe constant scrutiny of your religion is important, because if your religion is true, then every time you come up against a doubt you will find your doubt somehow shot down. Which makes your faith that much stronger.

    My goodness, that was a horribly long and roundabout way of getting to the last paragraph! My sincere apologies!

    Note: I'm not proseletyzing or evangelicizing or anything like that. I am officially the worst person for that job ever. I'm simply stating what I have found based on my own meager 17 years of experience.


    EDIT: Though I say I have had little brush with the fundamentalists, I feel it prudent to add that I grew up in an Episcopalian church notorious for it's conservatism. Fortunately, we had a wonderful, rather liberal minister. So when he left and was replaced with a much more common super-conservative, I found every part of my body revolt at his sermons. Like this morning for instance ::grumble grumble::
  19. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    Lol. I know what you mean about people latching on to anything. I've seen it.

    "The ones who don't scare me are the ones who have questioned their faith but time and time again have felt that it has been proven (in their own mind, from their own experiences) that what they believe is true. These people, who I unfortunately am not one of, who can systematically and logically list their reasons for believing in something that at first seem paradoxically illogical are incredible. (i.e. C.S. Lewis. Fantastic!)"

    What do you feel about the people who have questioned their faith, and instead of having stronger faith, have lost their faith? There are plenty.

  20. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    I agree, if God had wanted mindless devotion he never would have given use free will.

    Then again if God hadn't given us the ability to sin we probably would have demanded it <sigh>
  21. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    I don't know, but I surely see Christians as bad people! :D
  22. Eva_Pilot04 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2001
    star 7
    *smacks forehead* This is getting uglier than those EU/Canon debates. [face_plain]

  23. That_Wascally_Droid Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2001
    star 6
    I'm Christian.
    Do I see all Atheist as bad people? No.
    I'm Christian.
    Do I see all Christians as good people? No.
    A person should be looked at as a person.
    I know quite a number of Atheists, Agnostics, and people from all sorts of religeons that are good buddies of mine.
    With Atheist it's real simple, I don't mention God to people who don't want to hear it, and they don't call me a pathetic fool for believing in something that obviously doesn't exist. Very simple. If they ever thought they'd want to learn more, then I guess I'd talk to them about it but so far they haven't.
    Likewise, I've known Christians who I wouldn't want to be associated in any way with. I'm not as 'perfect' as them anyway so, likewise, they'd think of me as scum and try to change me and save me and blah blah blah.
  24. PadmeSkywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2000
    star 4
    I can't remember who said this this but, "I cannot believe that a God who endowed us with logical reasoning meant for us not to us it." If you truly believe something you must be able to question it. There are way too many people who are told not to question their faith because it would be blasphemy, you're going to hell etc...
  25. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    That was Galileo, PadmeSkywalker.
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