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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Do ghosts exist?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Obi Wan Bergkamp, Feb 8, 2002.

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  1. Obi Wan Bergkamp

    Obi Wan Bergkamp Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 1998
    I don't intend this to be a "do you believe in ghosts yes/no" type thread, rather a discussion of the scientific and religious reasons why ghosts do or don't exist, and a place to post any encounters you may have had.

    Personally I haven't had any encounters that I can truely say are ghostly visitations, although in a friend's house I occasionally saw, out of the corner of my eye, what I though was someone standing outside the frosted glass front door, but as soon as I looked directly at it the shape was not there. I put this down to alcohol rather than anything substantial.

    My own personal belief is that there is no afterlife, and thus no possibility of any spirits or souls that can visit us from beyond the grave. I have no "proof" of this theory and, as always am open to any suggestions to contrary.

    Discuss away!
     
  2. Tukafo

    Tukafo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 18, 2002
    you bring up the issue of "proof" but I can already say that nobody has any "proof" for any theory they might have on afterlife or ghosts. The only way to gather proof or evidence is if you die. And you're unlikely to return from that experience to post on this board.
    So none of us has any proof, but my speculation is that there must be an afterlife or at least a reincarnation
     
  3. Obi Wan Bergkamp

    Obi Wan Bergkamp Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 1998
    That's why the word proof was in inverted commas. Of course noone has any proof one way or the other, I was just saying I cannot back up me own view with any hard evidence and that it is an opinion - nothing more.

    The only way to gather proof or evidence is if you die. And you're unlikely to return from that experience to post on this board. - If I die, and there is a way to post on this board afterwards then I most certainly will do so. It'll solve all the religion arguements on here ;)
     
  4. Jedi_Xen

    Jedi_Xen Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 26, 2001
    Ghosts such as Casper per se, then no.

    I however do believe in the trapping of energy (for a lack of better words) that will for some reason or another re-play its self over and over again. I don't believe ghosts can interfere with our lives, or even know who we are (other than the holy ghost but thats a different can of worms).

    If you notice most ghosts stories take place around a violent action. A battle, a murder, a rape, or even accidental death such as falling down a flight of stairs. People have had these experiences before, and I truely believe them, but I believe its mere images, and sounds, not an actual spectre. I can't really explain how I believe it, other than the energy the person dying gives off is somehow trapped. I hope you follow what I'm saying.

    And I have no proof, very few things have actual proof, we can only do our best to come up with theories, and opinions, and when it comes to religion it comes down to faith. Proof is science's way of trying to be supreme.
     
  5. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    OB1B,even if you did post here I'm sure you'd be called on it. :)

    Well, I understand what you're saying JX. But, science merely follows a set of rules that is beyond individual feeling. It doesn't bend or twist to people's whims, unlike faith or religion. Faith requires belief to exist. The discoveries of science do not.

    Science has discovered a set of laws that are always there,no matter if you wish to believe them or not.

    As for Ghosts, there are certainly phenomenon that occur throughout nature. But, we don't know yet what's really going on.
     
  6. GreedoCMZ

    GreedoCMZ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 1999
    True science does not bend or twist to people's whims but we often find that scientists have biases. And science is about always learning and discarding old theories for better ones. It's not about becoming dogmatic about your pet theory.

    Anyways, my friend claims to have seen a ghost about three or four months ago at his work.
     
  7. CHEWCHAKA-orShaneP

    CHEWCHAKA-orShaneP Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2002
    What you're saying is correct Greedo. However, there is a process scientists follow in order to attempt to prove their hypothesis. Correct, if disproven, it is set aside. If not, it becomes theory, later law. Scrutiny and peer-review is also important.

    Ghosts at this time are in the realm of legend and myth. I'm not saying it's impossible they exist. Just that, at this time, it's beyond the scientific method to develop hypotheses.

    Arthur C. Clarke addressed the idea of scientific dogma well when he said " If a veteran scientist tells you something is possible, he is most certainly right. If he tells you something is impossible, he is very likely wrong."
     
  8. GreedoCMZ

    GreedoCMZ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 1999
    Yes, it's not currently in the scientific realm because they have no means to trap a ghost and study it. As far as anyone can tell, seeing a ghost (or a UFO) is a chance occurence. I remember when a brown dwarf star was discovered after their existence had been theorized before and it got the scientific community very excited. Someone wrote into a science magazine and said, "How come all the scientists are having a hype over some stupid brown dwarf star but they never bother to study UFOs? Is that good science?" The editor said, "Yes, that is good science because we can look at the brown dwarf whenever we want to now, but there is no way we can summon up a UFO to study."
     
  9. Darth_Chaka

    Darth_Chaka Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Well, they don't have the means also because they're not sure what they're really dealing with. We have our own legends and folklore about what ghosts are from superstition. To say we know exactly what ghosts are or represent is faulty.
     
  10. JediLeiaSolo

    JediLeiaSolo Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2001
    Very interesting topic.

    I have a huge connection to "ghosts" that I've never been able to explain, work through, or really deal with. When I was younger, I used to believe that ghosts were lost souls of a sort, trapped in our world trying to work through issues of the last lives. As I got older, that made less sense. I now believe that a "ghost" is kind of like a cosmic stain: since energy is neither created nor destroyed, all of the energy spent on a place leaves a mark when the person dies and it just kind of stays, expressing itself whenever it's got some kinetic energy to burn. This could be crazy, but I never said I was sane.

    I've been to "haunted" places, and it's an energy that makes me cry. I have no idea why, but it's always instigated that type of strong reaction from me. I don't get a fear at all, it's just such strong emotions that I get overwhelmed.

    Now, as far as poltergeists, and demon possessions, I have no idea. I have very little knowledge of them. I remember watching 20/20 about twelve or so years ago and they did a piece on demon possession. It seemed very real and scary, but one never knows, and I make it a general rule not to trust the media in any absolute way.

    All the best,
    JediLeiaSolo
     
  11. Darth_Chaka

    Darth_Chaka Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Interesting JLS. Your cosmic energy idea could one day be validated. I think physicists have said only about 1% of the matter in the universe is visible. The rest is "dark matter" or "missing matter" as I think they've called it. Where is the missing matter?

    Maybe there really is a "Force". ;)
     
  12. JediLeiaSolo

    JediLeiaSolo Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2001
    Interesting JLS. Your cosmic energy idea could one day be validated. I think physicists have said only about 1% of the matter in the universe is visible. The rest is "dark matter" or "missing matter" as I think they've called it. Where is the missing matter?
    Maybe there really is a "Force".


    Darth_Chaka, that's really interesting! I always kind of figured that if you really focus on something, that leaves an imprint on the world around you. I've also heard that animals can sense presences/ ghosts, and I think there are a lot of thing animals see that we can't...something to think about!

    All the best,
    JediLeiaSolo
     
  13. Jedi knight Pozzi

    Jedi knight Pozzi Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 2, 2000
    I believe in some court of law somewhere, it was once proven that a ghost did exist.
     
  14. Darth_Chaka

    Darth_Chaka Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Yeah I've heard the dog-ghost idea. Apparently, they detect stuff beyond our own senses. Then there's a dog's hearing which is far better than our own.

    Not only that but apparently some dogs have sensed when their owner was going to have or had a seizure. I remember a case not long ago where a dog barked and carried on to the owner, and she had a seizure. Aren't there some dogs that accompany people with Epilepsy?

    JKP, what's with the sig? :D
     
  15. CUBIE_HOLE

    CUBIE_HOLE Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 15, 2001
    I believe in the animal/dog thing too.

    Take it for what it's worth, but my girlfriend, before I knew her or anything, use to live in a house years ago that had questionable occurences in it.

    The most prominent place was her parent's bedroom. One time, while in that room, she felt something tapping/poking her on the back(like a hand/finger), but her back was facing a close wall, and of course no one else was there.

    She also said, while it was hard to describe, but another time, it felt like something/someone went through her(starting at her feet, and up through her body, exiting her head.), while in the same room.

    They had a dog, but the dog would never go in the room, and if it got close to the room, it would start barking and practically go crazy.

    Another time, while her mother was in the room, and everyone else was gone, she heard someone moving/banging around in the closet. She thought it was my girl friend's younger brother skipping school and hiding in the closet, but when she looked, no one was there.

    There was other weird random stuff. Usually at night/bedtime. My girlfriend would her a sound that seemed like someone scraping two knives together.

    Her brother saw a face in the bathroom mirror, after he took a shower. The mirror fogged up in the shape of a face. It wasn't perfect or anything, but it was clear enough for her brother to ask/accuse his friend of making it.

    One of her sisters use to hear laughter coming from the living room at night, and she claims that one night she saw a slimy monster/dog thing that had red eyes and was simply looking at her.

    Another sister, the youngest in the family, use to have occuring nightmares of monster/dog like things with red eyes coming into the house, and eating the whole family

    I heard all this from my girlfriend and her family, and even though it seems hard to believe and rather unreal, something was real enough for their parents to get a priest to come and bless the house.
     
  16. Mike_Mothma

    Mike_Mothma Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2001
    I told this story once before in another forum, but I'll tell it again for fun:

    I used to work at a summer camp in *thunder clap* Pennsylvania *thunder clap* when I was in college. I was not a counselor, therefore I was allowed to stay up late at night and hang out with the night watchman who was only a few years older than I was.

    He would often tell me storys about hearing noises coming from the lake, and also from the rec hall late at night. He said it sounded as if people were swimming in the lake, or playing ball in the rec hall, and that he always heard these sounds around 3:15 AM. Whenever he would go to check out these disturbances, he would find nothing.

    So one night I decided to stay up with him and see for myself. We sat on the porch to the dining hall, which overlooks the lake and the swimming area. After awhile, we lost track of time. He told a joke, I laughed, and then we were silent. Just then the lights on the porch dimmed (these lights only go on and off, there is no dimmer switch) and there was a loud splash that came from the swimming area. It sounded as if someone had jumped twice on the diving board and then went into the water. We had a clear view of the lake, and there was nobody there. The water was perfectly still- not one ripple! Then the lights came back on. Sure enough, it was 3:15 AM.

    The next morning we explained what happened to the camp's swimming director, who had worked for the camp for about 15 years. She told us that exactly 25 years before that summer two counselors had gone to town to party at a local bar. They came back late, and rather drunk, and decided to go skinny dipping in the lake. Because of their mental state, they both drowned.

    We were later told not to share this story with the kids because it would scare them, and possibly harm the camp's reputation. This is not a joke! I found it very hard to sleep for the rest of that summer.
     
  17. Darth_Chaka

    Darth_Chaka Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Cubie, they actually STAYED in the house?! I would probably high-tailed it out of there after #3, and surely with the red-eyed Ghostbusters-demon-dog thing. :eek:

    MM, where are you from? If you're from the mid-Atlantic area there's a lot of Civil War ghost stories from that area. :)
     
  18. CUBIE_HOLE

    CUBIE_HOLE Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 15, 2001
    Darth_Chaka, good guess. All that stuff happened in Huntsville, AL. It's funny you mentioned the Ghostbuster thing, because I mentioned the same thing, when she told me about it.(she said it was 'sort of' like that, but that was the only thing she could think of to compare it too)

    That Civil War stuff does tend to be the beginning point of odd occurences. Before I came to school, one of my friend's family owned a mansion(his mother grew up in the house, but at the time of my story, they lived in a house behind it.

    Anyway, it was around before the Civil War, and was part of the Underground Railroad(there were ledges for people to hide on in the inside of the chimney). At the time of the Civil War, it was used as a hospital, and was actually burnt to the ground, with the exception of that chimney. It was rebuilt shortly after the war.

    There were lots of stories of weird things happening to his mother and grandparents, when they lived in the house. I can't remember real detailed things, but stuff like: doors slamming(remember this was an OLD building, so we're talking big, heavy doors that usually drug on the floor and were just all around difficult to open and close), random foot steps, shadowy images at night, feelings of having someone sit on your legs, while you're in bed, etc.

    Anyway I was in there once, and we were going to get something(a jacket I think). The place was not lived in anymore, so we had to take our time going through it(luckily most of the rooms had lights we could turn on). When we got to the room were the jacket was, we started to hear smoke alarms going off. They weren't making the noise that sounds when there's a fire, but just that beeping sound when the battery is low. They started real faintly and in rooms that were far away from us. It was like a wave moved through the house in our direction, and it made every smoke detector in the house start beeping, until finally the one that was in the room we were in started to beep.

    So there we are, standing in this alledged haunted house, when all of a sudden every smoke alarm started to go off.

    Do you think my friend and I looked at each other and said, "Holy ****!" And then ran like hell to get out of there?

    You're damn right we did!

    Sadly, they tore that house down a few years ago. Can't say I was to upset about that.
     
  19. Jedi_Xen

    Jedi_Xen Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 26, 2001
    Interesting story Cubie. Very intresting. You need to call unsolved mysteries. ;)
     
  20. JediMaster22

    JediMaster22 Jedi Knight star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 15, 1999
    Cubie_Hole, you story is scaring the crap out of me!!! :eek:

    Good thread!
     
  21. cube

    cube Jedi Master

    Registered:
    Feb 14, 2002
    I believe! In other words my answer is yes!
     
  22. Pellaeon69187

    Pellaeon69187 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2000
    Yes, I do think they exist. There is no proof that they do or don't but there have been to many reports to deny that they don't.
     
  23. Kitt327

    Kitt327 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2000
    There's ghosts in Star Wars, so they must exist :)
     
  24. JediLeiaSolo

    JediLeiaSolo Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2001
    I love stuff like this!

    Please forgive the vague-ness of this story, but it would be too hard to explain otherwise.

    Anyway, I was with a good friend and a woman I didn't really know well, at a place that has been rumored to have a lot of paranormal activity. Whenever I walk into the place, it's got that "hair standing up on the back of your neck" feeling that just never goes away, no matter how many people are there. The three of us were talking about a person that had died a very long time ago, and this particular place was one the person frequented.

    The woman I didn't know well started talking about how this person had died, and really changed the story from what we had both heard. The instant the woman changed the story my head started to buzz, nearly to the point where I was going to get a headache. I had this overwhelming feeling that something was wrong, and that someone was watching me, and I was scared to death to look out the window behind me. The woman continued on with her story, the feeling worsening all the while, and I noticed my good friend give me a wary glance, and look out the window behind me very strangely. Finally, I tried to ask her to stop and discuss something else, but not knowing me well, she didn't really understand what I was asking, and I was too polite. My friend told her flat out that she was getting a very creepy feeling, and didn't want to discuss it anymore. She apologized politely, and we discussed something else. After a few moments, the panic subsided, and then everything was fine.

    My friend and I discussed it after we left the company of the woman, and we had both gotten the exact same feeling of the story, independent of each other.

    Now, I had no connection to the person that died, the place that we were in, or any real knowledge of the events that led to the person's death. I've been to the place several times since that night, and have not experienced any sort of presence of that caliber again. I'm also not prone to panic attacks, headaches, or any other sort of health problem.

    So, do what you will with it. :)

    All the best,
    JediLeiaSolo
     
  25. KansasNavy

    KansasNavy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2001
    I've seen human figures that disapear before my eyes, but that was always at the edge of sleep, when I wake myself up in the process of drifting away. Pretty weird.

    One was this woman figure who was bending over and seemed to hide something. I was in a bunk bed at a friends, so I thought it was his mom in his room. I propped myself up a little to get a look, and the figure looked up and vanished.

    Another was when I was sleeping in the family room with a bunch of friends staying overnight. We decided to call it a night, because we were so tired. I fell asleep for a short time, and woke up realizing the TV was on. I opened my eyes, and a boy was sitting Indian style against the wall, motionless, staring at me, lit by the TV light. I blinked, and he was still there. I rubbed my eyes, and he was gone. Other friends were still watching the movie and hadnt noticed it, so I never mentioned it. Actually, this is the first time Ive admitted these publically.

    Dont know what to think of them. I know my old house was haunted, because thats the only time anything remotely weird happened their. I just assumed it was my mind playing tricks. Both times I was startled awake in a not-quite-awake but not-quite-asleep state.

    Weird ****...
     
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