Do Guns Kill People or Do People Kill People?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Dark_Nexium, Jan 8, 2007.

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  1. Ree Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2005
    star 5
    No one should be shooting anyone, no matter what they have done because someone still dies.

    It's this reasoning, that has brought up this debate I'm pretty sure. It's why the US doesn't have major gun laws (or any at all I don't know) and why they have mentally imbalanced people buying guns and killing lots of people.
  2. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    Ree, by responding to that bit re guns, and given that guns don't always kill, are you saying that you're opposed to those cases allowing someone to defend themselves? That it would be a BAD thing if, in that particular case, a woman shot a man trying to rape her?
  3. Kimball_Kinnison Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    I am very much of the Malcolm Reynolds philosophy:
    If it'sa life-or-death situation, and the other guy is trying to kill me, then his life is forfeit and I will do everything in my power to stop him, by any means necessary. The same goes if he is threatening any of my friends or family with lethal force.

    Kimball Kinnison
  4. Master_SweetPea Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2002
    star 4
    1. Better him than me or my family, bad guys lose one, good guys don't lose any.
    2. The U.S. has over 30,000 laws with reguards to firearms and they vary greatly from state to state, in New Jersey a citizen can not buy a .177 pellet gun without a license, but here in Florida I can buy a pellet gun, rifle, shotgun, or handgun from licensed dealer without any permit, only a simple background check is required (and 3 day waiting period for the handgun)
    3. it's because his privacy was respect and his purchase was not stopped like it should have been, then again if he had spent less money on building a bomb he would have most likely killed more people.






  5. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    It's this reasoning, that has brought up this debate I'm pretty sure. It's why the US doesn't have major gun laws (or any at all I don't know) and why they have mentally imbalanced people buying guns and killing lots of people.

    And taking away guns helps those peole with a metally imbalance how? :confused:

    Taking away guns does not help people like that because they still have there problems. And if it's not a gun then it will be some other weapon again. Remember you said they are 'mentally imbalanced'. ;)
  6. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    And the greatest death toll at a school was from explosives
  7. ShrunkenJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2003
    star 5
    Who's more likely to have a gun, though: the criminal or the ordinary citizen? Obviously the criminal. Most people aren't going to carry a gun around on the off chance it'll be useful, because *it's inherently dangerous especially if you're not absolutely familiar with it*. Mace or pepper spray, more likely. Say what you want about you saving your own necks, I'm looking at this on a societal level. *If* you can show me that lax gun laws help reduce violence, show me the statistics and I'll reconsider my position, but otherwise I stand by what I've said.
  8. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    Well, if you take the stance that gun laws will prevent crime, who exactly are you expecting to obey them? If gun laws were stricter, the criminal would still, likely, have a gun. Plus there are restrictions that prevent felons from owning or possessing guns. That stance, to me, seems to assume that criminals will obey gun laws, even though they have no problem breaking any other laws. The criminal will, I think, have the gun either way. The question is how much access do you give the person thats not going to break the law.

    And for the purely anecdotal, I know of two people that have been involved in gun crime in some fashion. One was a friend that was killed what is I think now passed 10 years ago in a drive by shooting. The other is the father of a friend of my brother's who had two men attempt to rob his store, and he injured one and killed the other because he had a gun.
  9. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    Question:
    Answer:

    [image=http://www.bestsyndication.net/images_com/2007/04-April/18/041807_virginia_tech_killer_mails_package_to_nbc.jpg]

    Proof:
    Decent nations with stricter gun laws DON'T HAVE mass school killings.
  10. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    Really?

  11. Master_SweetPea Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2002
    star 4
    it all seems a little bit less abstract to me at the moment.
    Last night in the cover of darkness and the sound of rain.
    Some worthless Piece of human garbarge came into my back patio and stole my bike.
    My wife had heard noises but didn't think it was anything.
    Guess I'l be going to Home Depot and buying a motion sensing light for the patio....

    more later.
  12. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    Ok, point for you Flyer.
    No proof, then. Answer still stands, though...

    What's that about bike theft you're posting in the gun thread, Master_SweetPea?
  13. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    You really sure you want to go for an absolute here? What about Canada?
  14. Ree Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2005
    star 5
    No. I'm saying there are other ways of defending yourself. You can learn defensive techniques that incapacitate someone, but doesn't kill them.
    And is a woman going to have a gun hiding in her dress just in case she gets raped by someone? i doubt it. There are precautions you cna take so these thing don't happen. We do fine here without guns.

    On another note, its not a black and white issue (well not to me). There's no 'bad-guys', 'good-guys'. A desperate or mentally imbalanced person can go and buy a gun and hold up a store if they need money and hurt someone. And 'good-guys' do questionable things sometimes too.
  15. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    He was messed up to being with. The stricer gun laws would not have done a thing to stop him. The only thing that would have stopped him is if the person selling the guns knew the guy had a lot of mental problems and was planing on killing people with said guns.

    If he did not have the guns he would have used pipe bombs. Take the guns out of it and just look at who he was. He did not reallly seem to care what the laws were any way.

    The problem with the US is that we let the crazy run around and never do much to help them.

    I mean heck don't worry about that kid who is help to kill some of his classmates because they may of may not have picked oh him. Besides we don't want to take away his right to privcey now do we. ;)

    If you want to fix the problem then you have to go after the root cause of the problem ie the people that break the laws or are going to be breaking the law. What good is it to take away the rights of those who don't even break the laws to being with.
  16. SaberGiiett7 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 6
    "Those who turn their guns into plowshares will plow for those who didn't."

    <[-]> Saber
  17. Master_SweetPea Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2002
    star 4
    Last night someone came into my back porch and stole my bicycle while my family and I were home.
    My wife heard noises, and looked out but didn't see anything.
    Now IF we had investigated the noises two things MIGHT have happend.
    1. said piece of human garbage would have ran away
    or
    2. piece of human garbage would have become aggresive.

    in scenario #1, the situation takes care of itself.
    in scenario #2, force is needed to defend oneself.

    Best defense by far is the threat of lethal force,
    "Get down or I'll shoot"

    Then again maybe the fear of encountering an armed citizen is why this person is stealing instead of mugging people on the street.

    Which would you rather have happen to you, wake up and find that something has been stolen from you driveway or back porch, or have someone put a knife in you face and demand that you give them your wallet.

    One is rather scarey and intrusive, the other is anonymous and annoying.

    just some thoughts that couldn't escape me as I drove around my neighborhood trying to see if it was some kid who took my bike.
  18. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    You're drawing an awful lot of conclusions.

    Have you considered

    - said human might not be garbage but just down-on-his-luck;
    - all bike owners keeping guns to protect themselves;
    - what else those bike owners will do with their guns;
    - the fact he's not mugging is to avoid confrontation, not to avoid armed citizens

    Anyway, sorry 'bout your bike. Perhaps locking it to a fence might help?

    ... Perhaps that's actually much more helpful and practical than carrying guns.

  19. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    There are, however, women that DO carry guns. I find it interesting that your doubts are enough to rule it out for all women. I'd also point out taht things like "I have a gun" or being able to show one has a gun can lead to a criminal backing off because they don't want to get shot though, so a gun can be used defensively without having to actually shoot someone.

    Also, you are aware that the rape rate in Australia is more than 2 and a half times the rape rate in the U.S., right?


    Three points, first of all... its theft. Thats not "oh I'm having a bad week" thats theft. Plain and simple. I'd agree with the garbage comment.
    Second, the whole reason that criminals will avoid confrontation, however, is because of their safety. Hense why they avoid the chances that they'll deal with someone that could either identify them or harm them if they're able to do so.
    Third, locking it to a fence won't neccessarily help. I know someone who had his bike stolen having previously scared someone off that was in the process of cutting the lock off and had gotten about half way through.
  20. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    Defend Master_SweetPea all ya want, but pitting bike thieves against armed citizens is not my idea of a healthy society.

    Bikes of mine have been stolen more than ten times. All because I neglected it or didn't lock it properly. Buy a proper lock, not a gun.

    Proper bicycle locks DO exist, you know.
  21. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    Really, folks.
    It sounds as if you're still living in the Wild West. Still battling hardship and lawlessness, setting that new frontier.

    When a person is in the process of stealing your bike, you call the cops. You have a really nifty phone number for that. You can actually have your bike registered. You don't go out and American-History-X them yourself. You're not Bruce Willis, you're not above the law.

    If not enough bike thieves are caught by the police, then you try and improve the police force. You don't arm citizens. That's called: civilization.

  22. Master_SweetPea Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2002
    star 4
    Above the law no.
    Within the law Yes.
    in American History X he took an aggressive role HIMSELF.

    I have two cables actually, but didn't feel the need, on my back porch inside the screen. Like I said I'm going to go see If I can replace the porch light with a motion activated one.

    The problem with the entire concept of "civilization" is that there will ALWAYS be some members of society who are un-civlized, they will choose to take things by force.

    I currently don't own an air taser but I'm going to get two because my wife can't seem to remember where in my closet the pistols are, or how to load them, and she tends to keep her keys down stairs, so she couldn't get in my locked closet anyways.

    Like I said there are two basic scenario's in the first one the perp runs off at the sightest chance of human contact, the other the perp becomes aggressive and attacks. The first if far more likely, but you can't instantly prepare for the second, you have to already be prepared when it happens.

    I carried a pistol enough in Afghanistan to feel comfortable with carrying one in Florida ,
    an armed society is a polite society, and a civilized one at that.
  23. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    But the thing is, Master_SweetPea, you can control yourself. That's why you don't ram no thieves' heads through the pavement. But not everybody can control themselves. It's just like you say - 'there will ALWAYS be some members of society who are un-civlized, they will choose to take things by force'. That's exactly why you shouldn't arm everybody. Because there will be far more people who will choose to take things by force.

  24. Master_SweetPea Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2002
    star 4
    So far we've seen the oppisite, there are far LESS people who choose to steal, rape, and murder.

    And even though Florida is a shall issue CCW state only 2% of the population has a CCW

  25. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    If not enough bike thieves are caught by the police, then you try and improve the police force. You don't arm citizens. That's called: civilization.

    So I'm supposed to wait for the police. You might want to check out who good the police force is in the US becasue it's not that good at all.

    - said human might not be garbage but just down-on-his-luck

    So what does that mean? So he's down on his luck that means nothing to me he's still breaking the law.

    the fact he's not mugging is to avoid confrontation, not to avoid armed citizens

    No the point of not mugging someone is that he does not want to get cought or IDed by someone and be picked up. Which is why those that do go for the mugging path will wear something to cover there face.
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