Do Guns Kill People or Do People Kill People?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Dark_Nexium, Jan 8, 2007.

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  1. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    Ender, however, the point was the inefficiency of the gun laws. That is to say, increased gun laws don't show a decrease in spree shootings at schools. The point wasn't to show that more guns would be better, but that the gun laws added in didn't do anything preventative as it relates to school shootings.
  2. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    I wonder then, Lowie, could we be looking at it wrong? What if the restrictions just didn't go far enough?

    E)S
  3. Master_SweetPea Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2002
    star 4
    true we should ban students from schools.
    *that's a joke folks*

    with any problem everyone has a different approach.
    i can only say...uhm...I'll get back to you on that.
  4. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    Well, I would counter that it shows that the bans have not been effective, and that I think the motivation or lead up to these crimes, at least for spree killings, is something much more important to look at than the means. If the change was flat, then I think that would carry some weight. However, the rate of these incidents seem to be increasing. There has been at least one a year every year since 1995, and 1995 to 2005 saw 12 school shootings, while 1985 to 1994 saw 3. I would say that this is a symptom of a problem that isn't simply the presence of guns, be it too many or too few. Its a deeper issue.
  5. Master_SweetPea Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2002
    star 4
    In other news I've reccently been directed to a Gun Builders forum and I think I'll build a rifle for myself!
    [face_dancing]
  6. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    ONe dead, two wounded in Melbourne CBD shooting

    Eyewitnesses saw the man drag a woman out of a cab on the corner of Flinders Lane and William Stree in the city just after 8am.

    Two bystanders apparently came to help the woman, only for the aggressor to pull a handgun and shoot all three.


    Thoughts? It's pretty shocking here, and fairly if not completely uncommon.

    E_S
  7. Ree Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2005
    star 5
    All I want to know is how the hell he got a gun! If I could I'd swear here but I'm not allowed. He just killed someone! ****hole.
  8. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Well, I think it cuts to the heart of the debate as seen from the two "camps" (for lack of a better word)

    There can't be any more restrictions on handguns put in place, at least in any kind of practical sense, in Australia, and the couple who were initially involved knew each other. Few details have been released as of yet, but it's an unfortunate incident of violence that would have occurred no matter what the guy was armed with.

    E_S, this is a somewhat related question because I'm not sure of the answer. In the US, in almost all cases, police officers are authorized to be armed both on and off duty. In Australia, the police usually check-out their duty weapon to go on duty, and check in back in upon completion of their shift, correct? The police don't routinely carry off duty do they?
  9. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    I know NSW police generally do not take their weapons home. They can, if they have a correct and legal gun safe, but they otherwise cannot. Australian Federal Police investigators, Customs and ASIO officers I imagine would have similar rules, but I can't confirm this.

    E_S
  10. Ree Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2005
    star 5
    Hmm i didn't know that.
    Cool.
  11. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    I heard this on the news on my way out of the airport in sydney... and it was top news. In LA, one person being shot that far away usually isn't considered newsworthy.

    well, there is also that point has been made that guns aren't entirely banned here, just heavily restricted.
  12. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    I'm heading up to Sydney this afternoon Lowie. lexu's flying back to the US on Wed, so we're hanging out the next two days up there. How long are you here for?

    E_S
  13. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    in australia, till the end of July. I'm going to be in Tasmania for a week in early July, otherwise I'm in and around Sydney. Some further trips out, but here is base of operations.

    Where abouts are you exactly, anyway?
  14. Ree Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2005
    star 5
    The only cool place in Tasmania is Port Arthur. If you get a chance you must go there.

    Ironically enough that was where the most recent gun massacre occured that instigated our current gun laws. It was over 10 years ago. Weird small world.
  15. Silmarillion Manager Emerita/Ex RSA

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 1999
    star 6
    I think it reflects on the culture of Australia that the story is so shocking. In broad daylight, in a crowded street - and the Victorian police weren't involved? Crazy.
  16. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Normally in Canberra, but I commute up fortnightly.

    E_S
  17. Souderwan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 6
    I always find these debates fascinating, largely because I've yet to grasp the motivation of the people on either side of it.

    On the one hand, you have those who seem hell-bent on protecting a right that they don't necessarily understand the basis of and oftentimes don't take advantage of anyway. On the other hand, there are those who seem to think that guns are the source of all violent crime in the US and want them gone, despite the clear evidence that violent crime has been on a steady decline in the US for the past two decades. It's as if this second group is waiting in the wings for one of these incidents to occur and get some good media coverage so that they can resume this debate.

    Like I said, I find it all very fascinating.

  18. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    Humourously, the travel book for tasmania mentioned that first for Port Arthur. Which I found hilarious.


    E_S, sorry to hear that. May have to catch you one of the times you'er up Sydney-side
  19. Ree Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2005
    star 5
    So it turns out, that guy in Victoria (what's his name) had a semi-automatic HAND gun. Apparently, they are still allowed. But long ones aren't allowed.
    Stupid.
  20. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    And, interestingly enough, conservative politicians are calling for tighter controls on handguns. ZOMG LIBRUL CONSPIRACEE!

    :p

    Ree, it is exceptionally difficult to actually obtain and continue to own handguns here. You jump through hoops on a fortnightly basis, or thereabouts, to satisfy legislative requirements. So it's hardly problematic.

    E_S
  21. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    Yeah, but that theory holds out... it is, after all, still the liberals, is it not?
  22. Master_SweetPea Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2002
    star 4
    I think that Liberal and Conservative have different meaning around the world. I remember an article in the Economist a few years ago about the term Liberal and it's different meanings, the conclusion was there is a meaning but no party to match..I was thinking, do they not know of the Libertarian Party?

    Anyways this reccent shooting is tragic. It always sad to hear about the sick people.
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