Speculation Do not assume anything...

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Mystery Roach, Dec 6, 2012.

  1. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    It still might just be the first 6 movies and then they'll transition to something different. I'm not saying those link sare BS or anything and I've nevers aid they WILL shift the focus, however those quotes appear to be taken from old info or the writers speculating.

    My point is that a lot of people think we'll see Luke son and/or daughter as the main character, an this would take away from the Hero story/journey structure that has always been a part of star wars. I think its likely they'll want to keep those elements intact since they've been there for all 6 parts, which means we probably won't simply see Lukes kid as his apprentice etc.... It removes the starting point of the heroes journey. Having a new character not be related to Luke, who Luke discovers is one way they can continue that story structure.

    Remember, once upon a time Owen was susposed to be Obi-wans brother. However Lucas changed things when he decided to make the Jedi more monk like in their approach to family. Obi-wan wouldn't know his brother. A lot of the comments about Lukes children are old quotes (and one of the more "recent" ones he said he didn't invision LUke being married) so Lucas may simply not see the story the same way today as he did in 1983. Lucas may now invision Luke as being more monk like and not having children.
  2. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    The MarketSaw quote could be old info or it could even prove to be bunk, but THR's report should pretty much be taken as fact at any rate.
  3. stellarmagic01 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    I think the MarketSaw quote dates back to the 80s or something... I remember hearing Mark Hamill say something similar in an interview back then. I think it's likely 7-9 will be a rework and compilation of 7-12... as so many of the elements originally in 7-9 actually have been used already (finding Luke's sister, the Emperor's defeat, and so forth).
  4. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    No the MarketSaw info is recent... if the source is real anyway. It could be a little outdated by now but not by much.
  5. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    I don't think old quotes or new rumors are very meaningful for quite a number of reasons. Reading into what people say right now is not all that reliable either; they are being very secretive about this whole thing, and have even put out false info in the not-to-distant past.

    That said, blind assumptions are different than looking at the situation with the evidence at hand and doing some induction. From that standpoint, it is highly unlikely that they will not make every effort to include the big 3.
    Last edited by Lee_, Dec 10, 2012
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  6. Echo-07 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2012
    star 4
    As I see it:

    Prequel Trilogy = Anakin Skywalker
    Original Trilogy = Luke Skywalker
    Sequel Trilogy = New Skywalker

    3 Generations. The generational saga George has spoke of many times. The third easily "passes on the torch" to the new, "passes on what we learn to the next gerneration," in such a way that Disney can continue the saga for another trilogy 10-12 or even beyond that.

    I would find it hard to believe that Han and Leia didn't get married and have kids. It is after all a fairy tale. Then I'd find it hard to believe those Solo kids swouldn't be important characters in the ST. Seems highly unlikely. And last, I could envision Luke nevr having married and never having kids. Perhaps he trains the Solo kids and looks for other Force intuits outside the family, but that doesn't fit with the generational saga of the Skywalkers. So, I don't think it's likely we won't see another Skywalker protagonist, either male or female.
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  7. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Something like what I would guess. Since Leia is from the Skywalker blood, any offspring she has is Jedi material. I can't picture Luke following in his dad's path and getting married against the Jedi rules.
  8. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    Luke is the last of the Jedi, and as such there are no "Jedi rules" he has to adhere to. So it's up to him to create a new&improved Jedi order with whatever new rules he sees fit, if any.
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  9. stellarmagic01 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    Well those rules are never mentioned to Luke in the OT and so, as far as the moviegoers are concerned, Luke might not know. In order for there to be a third generation 'Skywalker' Luke needs to have a kid, for the name to continue beyond the child the kid has to be male... At best Solo kids would be in the Obi-wan role from the PT... the older (but not old) sibling/mentor figure. You can not underestimate the importance of the name itself or the father - son dynamics that play a role in the whole series.

    The elimination of the 'no attachment rule' is probably going to be part of the any rebuilt Jedi Order... like any religious order in its infancy I don't see them having any hardened doctrine or dogma. Fundamentally I think that part of the whole 'balancing the force' prophecy is the impotence of the old Jedi Order... they're stagnant, incapable of adapting to the situation, and dogmatic. In short, they're doomed to fall.

    Luke's new order is going to be shaped by Luke... one of the most telling things I find with Yoda and Luke's relationship is that Yoda never seems to be dogmatic or trying to force the old order's doctrine down his throat, everything seems more advisory, mentor and mentee rather than master and student. It seems like Yoda is more focused on Luke's character then on any hard rules the Jedi had. I don't think anyone mentions the code in the OT at all.

    That's the thing... the PT is about the decadence of the Old Jedi Order and the Old Republic. The OT is about the barbarism of Empire and the struggle to survive. The ST will be about a new rebirth of civilization in a New Galactic Republic and a New Jedi Order. Anything that seems rather dogmatic or dumb is likely to be ignored.

    I don't see why people are so hung up on the idea that Anakin fell just because he married Padme... yes that was the turning point but there were a whole lot of circumstances also at play... his friendship with Palpatine, the visions, pretty obvious boneheaded moves by the Jedi Council, and so forth. There's plenty of other Jedi with attachments even in the PT films... Obi-wan has three obvious ones (Qui-Gon, Anakin, and Padme) so I can't think it's attachment alone that's bad. Keeping the rule turns the heroes into robots... which makes for really poor heroes.

    I do wonder if there is going to be some sort of reveal about force users that use all their emotions (think Starkiller from TFU) instead of the controlled nature of the Jedi Knights? A sort of force using berserker maybe?

    My bet:
    PT = Anakin Skywalker (Mentored by Obi-wan Kenobi and Yoda)
    OT = Luke Skywalker (Mentored by Obi-wan Kenobi and Yoda)
    ST = Ben Skywalker (Mentored by Jaina or Jacen Solo and Luke Skywalker)
    Last edited by stellarmagic01, Dec 10, 2012
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  10. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    OK, but I would question a lot of things here.

    1) One COULD assume that Yoda instructed Luke on the Jedi code during his training on Dagobah. After all, we only saw flashes of Luke's training, not every second of it. One could also assume that since attachments were his father's undoing, Yoda would have been diligent in instructing Luke in that regard.

    2) Anakin's attachment to Padme ABSOLUTELY is what took him down; Palpatine USED this attachment to lead Anakin astray. That is the whole reason that attachments are dangerous for Jedi, because someone could do just what Palpatine did in using the attachment to turn them.

    3) That is a bad comparison to use attachments that are friendships such as Obi-wan and Padme or Qui-gon; that is a different level of attachment entirely than someone you are madly in love with and want to have kids/spend your life in the same house with. Obviously, that is what is forbidden for Jedi, not friendships.

    4) No, rules do not make the Jedi more robot-like; they make them live by a higher standard than others (as they say in Spiderman, with great power comes great responsibility).
    Last edited by Lee_, Dec 10, 2012
  11. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

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  12. stellarmagic01 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    And... Anakin's love for his son gets him to turn back. Starkiller's affection for Eclipse gets him to turn from the Dark Side... Pay attention man! An Order suppressing attachment led to Anakin going to Palpatine for advice, who used that attachment for his own aims, yes, but it was the Order's denial of attachment that made him turn to Palps.

    Yes, lets go against every traditional convention of the 'power of love' and just say love is bad... Really.

    Really? Lucas himself designed the story to show the opposite was true... Yoda is not omniscient nor is the order infallible.
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  13. Pfluegermeister Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    I think I can contribute to the discussion about this idea that, if the Big 3 - who by this point would naturally be older - were put front-and-center in the ST, that would render useless the idea of the Hero's Journey that Joseph Campbell proposed in The Hero With a Thousand Faces and which Lucas adapted to work in Star Wars. Here's how:

    First, the reason we think it may not be compatible is because we have always associated the Hero's Journey with young characters; of course, the films thenselves pretty much spell it out, so we can be forgiven for that assumption. But mythology is not strictly supposed to guide young people to adulthood. Campbell specifically said that one of the four major purposes of mythology (only this one of the four is relevant to this discussion) is to guide the human being through all stages of life - not just from youth to adulthood, but from adulthood to age and then to death. And therefore, the journey from mid-life to death ought to be considered every bit as valid a part of the Hero's Journey as the rest. Yes, we've seen two trilogies devoted to the first half of life, the phase of being guided from youth to adulthood and the tests that initiate that transition: Anakin failed that transition; Luke passed it. And, yes, we should expect another young hero of some kind to take that first part of the life journey in VII-IX; but that does not mean that there is nothing for Luke to do now in terms of his own Hero's Journey; it depends entirely on the writing.

    Let me describe the nature of what Luke could do on his Journey, as taken from Campbell's words in his book Pathways to Bliss:

    That's a situation that, at the very least, Luke ought to be shown to confront in himself; a truly satisfying story arc can be crafted for the character to address this with dignity, perhaps something far more on the line of, say, Kirk's arc in The Wrath of Khan as opposed to Indy's arc in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. And, when one considers just how much of Lucas' work has always been somewhat autobiographical, it is even more apropos, particularly now. Lucas' entire body of work can be considered such: American Graffiti and the first part of ANH concerned the urge of a young person to break out of his role imposed by his local society and take his first step into a larger world; the second half of ANH and the rest of the OT continued that arc from taking those steps all the way to achieving maturity; the PT was surely (at least in part) a way to tell Lucas' story as it had become by then; a man who became caught up in a machine which he did not personally favor and became the thing he once opposed. And now, with the ST, and with Lucas himself facing the natural urge to step out of the rest of society, to essentially "go into the woods" and retire and allow himself to dissolve, to accept death, isn't Luke the proper vehicle to explore this aspect of the Hero's Journey as well?

    I'm not going to say that there should be no young person's Hero's Journey in the ST; far from it. I'm just saying that if they choose to include, at the very least, Luke, then there are valuable opportunities here to tell a story in parallel to that young person's story; to be sure, old Ben in ANH at least touched on this himself - "I'm getting too old for this sort of thing." - but to do that in more depth could be very interesting and equally valid a mythological topic for Star Wars to cover. I'm not going to insist I'm right on this issue; I could be thinking this because I'm 40 now and I do see the finish line more clearly than I did at 20, and therefore I feel that the mythology I've lived with all my life could and should touch upon a subject that Campbell himself felt was valid and is entirely timely - not just for me, but for Lucas and Luke as well.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Pfluegermeister, Dec 10, 2012
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  14. Krueger Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2004
    star 4
    I’ve always had an idea that it wasn't really the attachment to Padme that caused Anakin to fall, but rather the fact that it was “forbidden”. Maybe things would have worked out differently if he wasn’t forced to keep his relationship (or his whole life, for that matter) a secret.
    Last edited by Krueger, Dec 10, 2012
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  15. KevinM1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 2
    1. Everyone hoping that the Solo family from the EU will be brought to film will likely be sorely disappointed. I just don't see it happening.

    2. Of course it's going to involve a Skywalker. The question is whether or not they're the main protagonist/antagonist.

    3. @Pfluegermeister, that's pretty much what I've been saying the entire time. I think that common sense dictates that this trilogy will deal with a generational shift as the Heroes of the Rebellion find themselves in a position where they have to cede responsibility of the galaxy at large to the next generation. I mean, look at the original cast. Look at who's writing the screenplay. It's the most natural, most fitting story to tell, and if done right it can be amazing. There are parallel plot threads that just spring up nearly fully formed from this premise, all of which really play into the themes of aging, preparing the youth for responsibility, letting go/stepping aside, etc.

    If we're right - and I think we are - this could be an incredible trilogy of films, with meaning far more deep than just space wizards vs. other space wizards.
  16. HankSolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2012
    star 2
    Makes the most sense to me.
  17. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Absolutely not. Luke turned him back AFTER he had destroyed whole planets and killed millions. He never would have turned in the first place and done all of that had he not fallen in love for Padme. And NO WAY was the forbidding of attachment what turned him or what Palpatine used; what turned him was his fear of losing Padme which he related (very Freudian) to the heartbreaking loss of his mother (that was what stoked the fear in the first place to send him down that road). Palpatine uses his friendship that he develps with Anankin to drive a wedge between the Jedi and Anakin, but it is more around them not trusting Anakin and not making him a master than anything to do with Padme. There is not a lot of quarreling about his relationship with Padme because the Jedi don't know about it.

    "Going against every convention of the power of love and say it is bad" is about as far from my point as one could get. We are talking a specific situation where people don't engage in it for specific reasons (speaking, of course, of intimate, sexual love), I don't know how you drew from my statement that love is bad in general; that is missing the point pretty wildly. There are even examples of this in the real world, such as priests or monks.

    Yes, Lucas obviously does not intend for Yoda to be infallible or omniscient, but we also don't know that George is implying that the Jedi code wrong, or ill-advised for Jedi.

    There is not really enough info to know which way they will go with this, but I am going to guess that Luke will NOT have kids. George mostly did not write the EU stories even though he approved them for release, and they have been clear that this is an original story in episode 7. The other thing to consider is that someone COULD use Leia's attachment to Solo or her kids against her to turn her, but I don't know how relevant that is if she never becomes a jedi.

    EDIT: Palpatine was about to be killed by Mace, Pal says "I can save the one you love," Anakin then says "I need him" and cuts his arm off (then Pal kills Mace). Clearly, none of the bad would have otherwise happened, this is the point where Anakin turns for good. If not for the romance with Padme, none of this happens; Pal would have been killed, and Anakin would not have turned.
    Last edited by Lee_, Dec 10, 2012
  18. Pro Scoundrel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    I just want to chime in on this part of the discussion. I can say that for me, personally, the only Jedi from the PT that I liked was Qui-Gon. And, that was because he didn't follow the code. He was an outsider and a rebel amongst the Jedi. He wasn't so stiff and lifeless. He actually HAD character. So, if they make Luke and his new order just like the PT Jedi, I for one will be very disappointed.
  19. Echo-07 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2012
    star 4
    Geeze, Louise! They have lightsabers and hyperspace travel, but they dont have some kind of Space-Viagra for that?! :p

    Your whole post was good. I think you make some excellent points. And as I said I think Luke will have a son to pass said torch (lightsaber) to. However, I kind of see him as investigating and learning as much about the Old Jedi Order as possible ino order to understand what went wrong. In this way I see him "cherry-picking" ideas from the past and creating an amalgam that becomes the New Jedi Order.

    Among some of the ideas that [change] become dogma:

    1- The eradication of the attachment issue (IE None)
    2- The eradication of the "too old" issue = Anakin was 10 and Luke was 20 when they began training. Perhaps Luke "flips the script" and says you can't train to be a Jedi until you've matured????
    3- The eradication of the "single Padawan" doctrine = I think Luke could be the Master to his nephew, neice and son/daughter
    4- The establishment of the NJO on Tython instead of the political center of Coruscant = IMO there's no way he re-establishes the Temple on Coruscant after what his father did there -- total dessicration.
    Last edited by Echo-07, Dec 10, 2012
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  20. Julius Vernon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    This is what I'm starting to think happens. I think Luke will want to distance himself from anything that may have contributed to the downfall of the PT Jedi Order. I also see family as central enough to him that he will want to raise his own and support Leia raising her own. (Whether that's Anakin, Jacen, Jaina, and Ben remains to be seen). I also think the "too old issue" has been put to rest since Luke had (presumably) such a successful training.
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  21. Ozy-Kenobi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    If my understanding is correct, Disney/Lucasfilm will not make any money off of releasing the 6 existing movies and will not be distributing them (this goes to 20th century fox or something). Disney does have rights to the stories themselves though.

    what if they are simply intending to do a quasi re-boot? Re-tell episodes I-VI in a manner that says everything is cyclical. Luke Skywalker would play the Qui-Gonn role in the quasi re-boot. Leia would play the Valorum role. etc etc. Call them Episodes VII - XII, all with better dialogues and scripts.
  22. Pro Scoundrel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    Agreed, gents.
  23. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    Well, as I understand things, the whole "Return with the elixir" bit hasn't been implemented yet. That's:

    Refusal of the return
    Magic Flight
    Rescue from without
    The Crossing of the Return Threshold
    Master of two worlds
    Freedom to live
  24. stellarmagic01 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    Does anyone else get the feeling, looking back on it, that Lucas intended to paint the Jedi Council as being ineffective, dogmatic, or just too conservative? The first time Anakin's brought before the council they get twisted out of shape by Qui-gon saying he'll train Anakin. There's never a point in the PT that I'm going, oh... you guys are really the wisest in the order aren't you? Most of the time I'm thinking... stop being such dogmatic idiots and look at the situation as it is and use some wisdom man!
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  25. Pro Scoundrel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    Totally agree.
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