ST Do the films portray the New Republic negatively?

The films don’t really portray the new Republic at all. I mean they just disappear after Hosnian is destroyed.

 

Well the First Order is a foreign power invading the galaxy like Nazi Germany into Russia and if you look at Holdo's speech that is a form of propaganda. so we can assume that this is the "party line" and we have no reason to assume that there isn't going to be propaganda (although it's likely the truth given how evil and repulsive the FO is). Given the circumstances I don't see an analogy with Pearl Harbor or the German invasion of the Soviet Union wouldn't be appropriate.

You have a small power relying on a shock assault and decapitating strike to break the will of a much larger and powerful opponent. The question was one of will. I certainly don't see why after Hosnian Prime you haven't seen something reminiscent of FDR speech calling for war. The FO launched an unprovoked on the Republic Fleet and wish to return the galaxy to a state of barbarism and tyranny in which most of the population (aliens) will be enslaved or exterminated. Every former rebel and their family, along with any political dissident, free thinker or "deviant" would be at best sent to the gulag or just shot.

Such an extreme regime is comparable to the Nazi invasion of Russia where they saw their opponents as subhuman and wanted to take the land for themselves. If the regime is that extreme then it makes sense that you would have an extremely violent reaction against it. USA before Pearl Harbor was anti war. Afterwards there was never any question. The same should be true of the NR.

I think in episode 9 we are going to have some very bizarre world building where loads of people and worlds are with the good guys and were part of the NR a few days ago but insist on calling themselves the Rebellion until the film ends.

What I would like them to do is use the term "Rebels" a bit like the term "the Allies" from WW2. So yes the New Republic is the main part of the Rebellion. But it also includes anyone fighting the FO, for example mandalorians, Hutts, Chiss, Ewoks etc etc. However I don't think JJ will because Rebels is more marketable as a brand.

 

The New Republic though is the product of the Alliance, which was not a totalitarian movement like the USSR. So it's not necessarily going to mobilise itself in the same manner (I don't agree that Holdo is in any way comparable with the rhetoric and the Soviet battle cries of WWII .)

It was the Nazis overstretching, the winter and the refusal to surrender to the invasion that gave the Soviets a chance of regrouping and fighting back in the first place. Otherwise it would have completely and utterly collapsed.

I think we need to remember there is a very short timescale between Hosnian prime's destruction and the events of TLJ

 

Iam talking about the nature of the war. Having a small power try and Zerg rush a larger one. Then having it be a question over the will to fight.

To me the reaction of "we must repel these invaders who embody evil" is a natural reaction and one with countless historical precedents. You can apply this to pretty much all the Allies in WW2 with the exception of France and Poland. Even then, they had very large Resistence movements. So it is not reasonable for the Last Jedi to say that nobody is willing to fight what is objectively a horrific regime of terror and which has not a single redeeming quality or positive trait. Even the Nazis could pretend that they had the interests of the German people at heart, they didn't openly say "we will kill anyone who disobeys us because we are powerful" which is what Hux does during TFA. No rational human being could support that. He is literally promising a reign of terror and blood so that he can take power for his Dark Lord. That is a caricature. Every sentient creature in the galaxy should hate the FO and seek their destruction.

The excuse that it's been a few weeks doesn't really matter. The worlds of the galaxy are in a war of annialation with this evil regime which seeks to enslave and slaughter them. Why would Wookiee, Mandalorians, aliens, former rebels and the like accept that? As soon as the FO destroyed the Hosnian System they demonstrated the depths of their depravity and that they were inhuman monsters who have to be utterly destroyed. There is no choice in such a conflict, accepting the rule of the FO would invite deatg, genocide and ruin for the Galaxy.

 

Considering we know practically nothing about the New Republic in the ST (does it even exist anymore?), I’m not sure whether we can say it’s portrayed in the movies in general.

They definitely should’ve been the ones fighting the First Order though — not the Resistance.

 

The nature of the two societies is just as important as their size and what's at stake.

If the New Republic has any war experience, it's as the underdog harassing the establishment. Not as a warrior collective ready to join a fight for what's right (except those who formed the resistance, natch). For generations the old republic never had an external foe invading it so has no experience there. Not fighting would seem like a feasible option to prevent further devastation in that context.

The apparent lack of inherent will to be like a "good" Empire is credible and crucial.

It's not necessarily just material might that empowers the FO. It's the will to do something like destroying the capital system.

Genocide hadn't came up in recent GFFA history so it's not a logical conclusion to make that FO's posturing and destructive capacity should guarantee it.

We don't know enough about the New Republic to say that we know what they should be doing. We know that the Empire was voted for by many of the systems that form part of the new republic. The Alliance wasn't the Republic vs the Empire. It was a minority of the republic that felt democracy was worth fighting for. The resistance is the continuation of the rebel alliance military. The New Republic is a society that formed in the settlement of the war between the rebels and the Empire.

 

Blowing up a planet and killing everyone on it is genocide. Genocide is the use of technology to systematically kill a distinct group. You have a piece of technology: Starkiller. You have a distinct group, Hosnians, and they all get murdered because a bunch of war criminals and dark lords want their power back. This is a very open shut case here.

 

I'm wondering why no one answered Leia's call to arms from Crait.

Did they call on NR elements? Or just resistance bands?

The outcry should have been enormous. It the NR was a thing losing only its capital wouldn't have erased it at all.

A sneak atrack on London or Washington wouldn't end the outrage of the British Empire or the United states let alone their allies.

Then again there's always been something broken in the Galaxy. Alderaan didn't result in open war against the Empire eirher. It was left to a small rebellion.

Are the thousands of worlds that disconnected and apathetic?

 

Actually the destruction of Alderaan DID invite many people to openly fight against the empire. In fact we saw that the Rebellion was growing quite a bit in the subsequent films. It's just that the empire was still the official ruling party and had an extremely large military. Also the empire originally blamed the Rebels for the destruction of Alderaan, but that's probably because the Death Star was destroyed and couldn't be used to threaten planets to be kept in line, though the lie wasn't believed by many.

 

So yet again the OT is given the privilege of inference whilst none is given to the ST. How do you know that those who received the distress call just didn't want to risk their forces for such a small band of fighters?

 

I'm wondering why no one answered Leia's call to arms from Crait.

Did they call on NR elements? Or just resistance bands?

The outcry should have been enormous. It the NR was a thing losing only its capital wouldn't have erased it at all.

A sneak atrack on London or Washington wouldn't end the outrage of the British Empire or the United states let alone their allies.

Then again there's always been something broken in the Galaxy. Alderaan didn't result in open war against the Empire eirher. It was left to a small rebellion.

Are the thousands of worlds that disconnected and apathetic?

Not sure about that. Just a ragged fleet hiding in the outer rim. And after the defeat at Hoth not much in the way of s ground force either.

A pathetic band I believe palps termed it

 

From ANH, to ESB and finally ROTJ the fleet that the Rebel Alliance has did seem larger than the one preceding it. I think that may imply that the Rebels did grow between each subsequent film. Either way the Rebels were much larger than the Resistance. For a galaxy filled with several quadrillion people it’s odd that there were only a few hundred people willing to do anything against the First Order. The New Republic was definitely terrible in this regard that they had to rely on "secretly" funding the Resistance to do the spying and fighting back against the First Order. They should've been sending their own official members and military to investigate, not hide behind an "illegitimate" paramilitary group.

 

From ANH, to ESB and finally ROTJ the fleet that the Rebel Alliance has did seem larger than the one preceding it. I think that may imply that the Rebels did grow between each subsequent film. Either way the Rebels were much larger than the Resistance. For a galaxy filled with several quadrillion people it’s odd that there were only a few hundred people willing to do anything against the First Order. The New Republic was definitely terrible in this regard that they had to rely on "secretly" funding the Resistance to do the spying and fighting back against the First Order. They should've been sending their own official members and military to investigate, not hide behind an "illegitimate" paramilitary group.

 

Not that you should have to read it but Bloodline sets up a good picture of the Senate situation and what it was like for Leia once her relationship to Darth Vader was revealed to the GFFA. Despite her 30 something years of fighting for the Rebels, Resistance, the galaxy at large, all her good will was stripped away and they didn't trust any of her warnings. They rescinded her nomination for First Senator and she ended up resigning.

 

Where exactly does TLJ state that nobody is willing to fight the First Order?
The movie doesn't suggest anything like that at all. As a matter of fact, it does show the complete opposite, with people rallying to the cause now that it has been shown that someone is fighting back. That was the entire point of the end scenes, with Leia talking about them having everything they need for a rebellion and the kids re-playing Luke Skywalker taking on the First Order all on his own.

And yes, it most definately does matter that it has been just a few weeks (more likely days actually). How exactly do you think does a military, or even a civilian resistance movement, work?
The actual military that could have taken on the threat just got destroyed. There is no one there who can come just in and pick up the fight. There aren't giant fleets sitting around in the middle of nowhere waiting for a surprise attack that they couldn't possibly know about to happen. The galaxy as a whole was demobilized to a great extent. Not only does it take time to rally the people and resources that are still left, but the people also need something that indicates that offering resistance is a better option for them than keeping their head down, at least for the time being.

The resistence movements of WW2 took a lot of time to set up and be of any importance, and even then did the real resistence only pick up once there was a very good chance of getting help soon. There weren't all sorts of resistence-cells or militias popping up right after a country had been beaten, on the contrary, the large majority of people was happy that it was over for now and that they survived. The French resistence was irrelevant and way below the efforts of collaboration until the Axis powers were on the retreat on all fronts, and the same is true basically everywhere. The only place that truly saw quite a bit of activity for a prolonged period of time was Yugoslavia, and even that was only part of it, as the Croatian Ustasha as well as certain Serbian nationalists were fighting alongside the Nazis; not to mention Germany not considering the area to be of vital importance for the outcome of the war. Even Tito's partisans started rather small and only grew over time, while also getting secret supplies from the Allies. There was no real place of active resistance by civilians after the military had just been beaten, as that would have been suicide. At first there were only small local groups that operated in secret. No one dared to face an actual military head-on until the circumstances were lopsided in their favour.


And if you really believe that there haven't been governments who promised a reign of terror you should take a closer look at history, because it is full of just that. Not only did lots of people support these kind of regimes, but plenty of people also did nothing to fight them because they were in no position to do so and way too scared of getting killed. You had lots of slavs help the Nazis in eastern Europe even though they had to know that they were considered to be "sub-humans" as well. They worked with them because being on the side of the winner (at that time) made survival more likely than the opposite approach. Heck, you even had jews in concentration camps take on preferential roles that helped the Nazi guards in the (ultimately foolish) hope that it might help them survive. Most people will do anything they can to survive, regardless of what they have to do. Individual resistence doesn't do anything to stop the enemy. It's only when groups of people can come together, and have the necerssary resources or some sort of outside help that is coming in, that there is a chance to actually pick up the fight.

Then there is also the fact that people sometimes just wish that it won't hit them. People who might think that they won't get killed by the First Order, because the FO is interested in taking over, not wiping out the entire galaxy. It killed lots of people, but did so to take out the Republic itself, together with its fleet. All the civilians where collateral damage that the FO gladly accepted, not the main target. People from other planets, who have no fleet to fight, could have reason to assume that they will be just fine if they keep their head down.

 

Maybe they didn't know?
If they can seriously track ships through hyperspace without a fully trained force user then what's stopping them blocking the Resistance call for aid?

 

Not sure about that. Just a ragged fleet hiding in the outer rim. And after the defeat at Hoth not much in the way of s ground force either.

I haven't read that. Although I've heard that dynamic was there.

It's still relevant to the question posed in this thread, though. I can understand not trusting Leia in the build-up to Hosnian's destruction. But ignoring her call days after SKB should be separate things, surely?

 

Only if there is someone who can help immediately. And there isn't. Not being able to help immediately isn't the same as not wanting to help. But no one hops into a fighter to take on the entire First Order on his own, because that would be suicidal. First, the galaxy is in shock after what happened. Second, the only true military force in the Republic got destroyed in the process. That means that even the people who are eager to fight, first need to assemble their troops before they could ever hope to take on the FO. Even if there was a small fleet with a capital ship or two flying around somewhere, they still couldn't just come in and fight, because they would be destroyed just as quickly as the resistence ships were.

Arriving bit by bit doesn't help anyone, because it just allows the FO to take out one piece of possible resistence after another through overwhelming force. The hope to beating the First Order lies on a long-term plan that consists of rallying support for the cause, not by small groups getting destroyed by foolishly taking on a bigger enemy.

The scene in which it gets stated that no help is coming exists to show the importance of Luke's help, not to suggest that no one else is willing to fight.

 

Indeed. But in a Galaxy with a 1000 worlds, no one even wanted to fly in and offer transport to escape?

No one? Not one ship? Hell there was only a hundred souls left, maybe less.

At Dunkirk a bunch of civilians sailed into the hellfire of German subs, the Luftwaffe and Wermacht and managed to evacuate 300k troops under fire.

No one in the entire NR was prepared to do that?

There might not be a battle fleet comparable to the FO Orbiting Crait, but you don't need superiority to run a blockade. Just a diversion, bravery and some luck. One Ion canon was enough to blow some exit holes in the Empire's net around Hoth. And Vader's fleet was completely intact, not cut into shreds by Holdo.

 

Maybe they didn't know?
If they can seriously track ships through hyperspace without a fully trained force user then what's stopping them blocking the Resistance call for aid?

 

The "bunch of civilians" at Dunkirk are vastly overstated, not to mention that the people only went their because the British high command asked for everything that could float to help out. Most of the work done was actually by the British navy, civilians vessels mostly were relegated to move some people to bigger ships from the navy. In other words, the biggest navy in the world set out to evacuate the troops of the British Empire. This whole thing would only work as a comparison to TLJ if the entire British fleet was gone, and civilians had tried to start an rescue operation on their own. Not only would that not have happened, but any attempt to do so would have ended in desaster.

Again, you need someone who can carry the day. It's one thing to set sail alongside the biggest navy on the planet, it is something entirely different to do so all on your own. Beyond that, it was a call for help, not a call to temporarily break a blockade (and yes, a huge ion cannon is a much bigger weapon than anything available to anyone at this time, without it the transporters would have been dead right away). The whole thing only turned into an attempt to flee when Luke Skywalker appeared and gave them a chance to do so.

Anyone that wasn't with the resistence couldn't possibly know what exactly they were up against, beyond that it was a fleet which the resistence had no chance against. Nor could anyone really know how many members of the resistence were still left, because they most definately wouldn't have send out a signal that says "help us, we are only a few people left!", because at that point no one would have taken the risk to go and help a small group that might as well be entirely dead by the time you arrive.

No one was in a position to help in a battle against the First Order, and no one could possibly know what it would take to save the remaining resistence either. Add in the time-factor and it is completely normal that no one came to help. Which in no way suggests that there aren't people out there willing to fight or to help the resistence.

 

So the theory is when the lieutenant said no one answered the call we should read that as no one actually heard the call, but would have come if they could?

That's one way to look at it. Not sure if that's how it came across, though.

 

No one in a galaxy filled with quadrillions of sentient beings and vast resources has any sort of way to fight against what is basically a terrorist group with fancy weapons? That absolutely makes the New Republic look like poor, that they disarm themselves to the point of one fleet in one system in a galaxy where planet destroying technology has existed for decades. They should have always had their guard up and if not them, many other planets because I don’t see how ANYONE would want to be ruled over by some tyrannical, mad dogs that should have been wiped out of existence the second they tried to do anything.