Do the Luke Vader duels seem more plausible after TPM?

If this has been posted previously, shut me down!

Some claim that the whole idea of Luke being able to fight Vader is not very credible because of Luke's inadequate training. But what about the OBW vs Maul fight then? Maul bested OBW master, Qui-Gon. Really, OBW shouldn't even stand a chance against him - but he did all the same. Is it the force who is determining who is going to win, albeit the strength of the characters do of course play a significant part? That would actually be plausible considering how "easily" the Jedi were wiped out, and rather how "easily" they managed to return and defeat the Empire.

 

Obi-Wan was very close to becoming a Jedi Knight at the time of TPM so his skills were fairly advanced. He was losing the battle when the look of anger overtook him and he was forced-pushed into the pit. The advanced Jedi training of calm mindfulness is what won him the day.

Vader was holding back against his son.

 

Agree with stern 100%.

 

Yes I agree to some extent. But, OBW wasn't as good as Qui-Gon. And although Vader was holding back, I think there was somthing else, elusive

 

^^^
i've wondered too. how did a master get killed by Maul, yet his apprentice was able to avenge him?

i think it just comes down to obi-wan was a better swordsman. qgj was more skilled in the force (and was older and more experienced), but since obi-wan was younger, he was simply the better dueler.

 

Could well be. Would that count for the Anakin vs Dooku duel as well? and for the Luke vs Vader duel? both have a significant age difference. Dooku was stronger in the force than Anakin, and probably equally good in swordsmanship, but he lost perhaps he was getting too old perhaps? the same goes for Vader vs Luke? this is actually what I'm aiming at

 

On the contrary, it was Luke that was holding back from killing Vader. Remember Luke believed that Vader could be turned and was just parrying with him until he could convince him. It wasn't until Vader threatened Leia that he tried to kill Vader and would have done so had he not considered what would happen should he kill Vader.

Also, remember that Luke was the son of the man who had the most midi's in the galaxy. The fact is that we don't know what Luke's midi count is. Luke could very well have even more midi's than Anakin. Consider how short his training schedule was compared to that of Anakin. And, we know from ROTS that Vader would never be as powerful as Anakin because the Dark Side is not as powerful and because Vader was no longer "whole".

In conclusion, we didn't need TPM to clarify anything for us regarding the duels. The duels are well understood in the OT even though TPM simply adds some extra info.

 

I disagree. Watch closely and you will see that Obi-Wan was standing toe to toe with Maul throughout the fight after Qui-Gon was stabbed. In fact, I would even argue that Obi-Wan was besting Maul right up to the point where he was force-pushed. I used to think the opposite until I stopped focusing on Maul in the duel.

 

And, we know from ROTS that Vader would never be as powerful as Anakin because the Dark Side is not as powerful and because Vader was no longer "whole".

You're right that Vader isn't as powerful because he's mechanical. However, Lucas said that the dark side is more powerful on the AOTC DVD Commentary.

 

It's not always about "who's more powerful than who." Usually, it's about the plot, and this is certainly the case in TPM. Obi-Wan defeats Maul because he must live on to guide Luke. Plus, Obi-Wan is not your ordinary Padawan.

 

Also, remember that Luke was the son of the man who had the most midi's in the galaxy. The fact is that we don't know what Luke's midi count is. Luke could very well have even more midi's than Anakin.

I don't see how Luke could have more midichlorians than Anakin, a person conceived by midichlorians. Luke (and Leia) is a mix of Anakin and Padmé, he must surely have less (if only slightly) than Anakin.

As for the topic, I don't think the Force is determining who wins the duels, everyone has to make their own choices and decisions, it isn't all predetermined for them. Obi-Wan holds his own against Maul because he is just that skilled with a lightsaber, Qui-Gon may have been more powerful in the Force but it doesn't make him better with a lightsaber. Obi-Wan is able to hang with Anakin because he knows him better than anyone and pretty much taught him everything he knows, theres no one better to take down Anakin, even if he isn't as powerful. Vader is holding back against Luke in ESB and ROTJ (Luke even says that Vader is conflicted during their duel in ROTJ, he doesn't want to kill his son), which is why Luke isn't killed either time.

 

Yes, but there are similarities between the fight, don't you think? It describes how a master may be challenged by someone who is much less powerful on paper! But as we know, paper doesn't mean anything - almost.

I doubt if OBW is more skilled with a lightsaber than Qui-Gon, Qui-Gon taught OBW the same way OBW taught Anakin. We must also bear in mind that OBW was not a very good prospect of a Jedi - he nearly didn't get trained should we believe the official site.

 

How did Vader hold back in Empire? he won and took off Luke's hand. In Jedi Luke had gained power. He'd been meditating and training for another six months. Being a great swordsman doesn't require mastery of the force anyway. He was in his physical prime by that time, and Vader certainly was not. Being the son of a man with such a high midi-chlorian count sealed it. Probably no one else could have gained such power in so short a time.

 

I don't really think it has to do with whos better than who.

Luke and his father were holding back. No need to explain.

But...according to SuperShadow...sheepish grin.

Midi's...

Anakin=27,700

Luke, and Leia=14,500

LOL...Owen Lars=1,500!

Cheers_Cazza

 

Would that imply that Yoda had a higher midi-chlorian count than Luke and Leia?
I agree however that Vader wasn't holding back much in ESB, he chopped off Luke's hand for christ's sake!!

 

It is so obviously that Vader was holding back in ESB

He only took the fight seriously when he got pissed that Luke slashed his arm.......and in a matter of seconds Luke is disarmed

and Luke tapped into the darkside in ROTJ.........which was automatically the end of Vader because he wasnt fighting with anger and both were pretty much equal in power till then

 

I don't think that tapping into the darkside automatically gives you an edge. Look at OBW vs Maul, it wasn't anger that gave OBW and edge, quite on the contrary

 

Please tell me you're kidding or mistaken. I can't believe that Lucas would say something that utterly absurd. It would be the first "religious" philosophy that dictates that the corruption of the faith is more powerful than the faith itself. Even in evolution it's clear that mutations are never healthier or better in any way, shape or form than the original subject.

If Lucas really said that then I have lost a great deal of admiration for the saga in general. It's just plainly stupid. Would you happen to know where about in the AOTC commentary where he says that? I would greatly appreciate that info.

 

Would you happen to know where about in the AOTC commentary where he says that? I would greatly appreciate that info.

Lucas certainly did say that the dark side is more powerful, much to my delight since the Emperor is my favorite character. It was during the garage scene where Anakin confesses to murdering the Tuskens and vows to become the most powerful Jedi ever. You can read Lucas' statement about the dark side from the AOTC Commentary below.

"The key part of this scene ultimately is Anakin saying "I'm not going to let this happen again." We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark Side because the Dark Side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side which is the Dark Side, but ultimately it would be your undoing. But it's that need for power and the need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and to allow the natural course of life to go on, which is that things come and go, and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever frozen in time."
--George Lucas

 

Bear in mind that this can be read several ways. He may actually be saying that in pursuit of such an extreme power you would seek something other than the Jedi way, because it is not their way to hunger for power. Actually I must agree that this was a bad move by GL. I always thought Yoda was the character presenting GL's ideas, and now in my eyes he is contradicting himself. But he is, mind you, saying that in search for such a power, you are also heading down the road to perdition. Perhaps you will never find it - it will be a false power!? Vader never found it by joining the dark-side - another contradictory element in the Saga. GL shouldn't say EVERYTHING. Anakin was stronger than Vader, at least it appears so in the films. And I will always prefer to interpret the films, than having them bluntly interpreted for me. We don't ever see the Emperor as MORE powerful as Yoda for instance - I'd say the same.

However, this isn't the topic for this thread.

 

Just because Yoda said the dark isn't more powerful doesn't mean its true. The writer always knows more about true events in a story than the characters themselves. Therefore, Lucas' words are fact and always take precedence over Yoda's words, which are only a character's (possibly incorrect) point of view. Unlike Yoda,the Emperor says that the dark side is more powerful and that feeble Jedi skills "are no match for the power of the dark side". The difference between him and Yoda is Lucas supports his point of view in the Commentary. This tells us the Emperor is right, while Yoda is wrong.

 

But don't you find it a bit contradictory that we never see the darkside as stronger then? And if you do see it as stronger, please give good examples and explain

 

I think we clearly see the dark side as stronger in ROTJ. The Emperor electrocutes Luke and says "your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side". After seeing how the Emperor could completely overpower the greatest warrior we saw in the OT to the point that he couldn't even put up a fight, it looked like the Emperor was much more powerful than all of the other characters. Since he uses the dark side, it makes the dark side look more powerful.

 

Couldn't disagree more. Luke bested Vader. We must also bear in mind that Luke was not a fully trained Jedi. In such a way we may say that he had feeble Jedi skills - noe implying that Jedi skills overall are feeble, just Luke's.

 

Yoda said that Luke didn't need any more training and that he'd be a Jedi once he faced Vader. Vader told Luke that his "skills are complete". This means Luke was a full-fledged Jedi Knight at the time of ROTJ. Luke was able to defeat the fully-trained Vader, which makes him the greatest warrior we've seen in the OT. This is why it looked so impressive when people saw ROTJ for the first time and witnessed the Emperor dominating Luke with lightning. He was so powerful in the dark side that he didn't even need a lightsaber to own Luke.