PT Do you Consider Anakin Being placed inside the Darth Vader Suit an Iconic Star Wars Moment?

I loved Anakin being the put in the suit: attaching the arms, legs, as Anakin is a charred wreck with needles being jabbed in him. The very best part for me: when the mask is put on, and there's an evil sound similar to that of a dentist's drill, and then you hear the breathing. That was definitely iconic!

It was a little weird the first time to hear him say: "Where's Padme? Is she all right?" However, I think it just seemed that way because we virtually never hear the masked Vader say anything that expresses a human emotion except for the much more subdued: "It is too late for me, Son" in ROTJ. When I watch it now, those lines in ROTS don't bother me at all. It makes sense that Vader, at that point, asks about Padme, and learning of her death cuts the last link to his previous life.

I like the anger he expresses after he learns she is dead and how he crushes things using the Force while Palpatine has a little grin on his face. The "No" on the blu-ray is actually a little shorter than the film version. It's not as bad a Luke's "No" in TESB, but there's still something a little off about it. Still, I don't know what else they could've done there. They sort of needed something big and melodramatic there, and I think it would've been weird if they had cut it after Vader crushed all things using the Force and left it at that. That would've seemed anti-climatic to me, so I don't know what else they could've done.

For me, the "No!" certainly didn't ruin the scene. The whole thing -- from a defeated Anakin yelling "I hate you" at Obi-Won, to Palpatine finding him, to his being put in the suit, to Vader joining Palpatine to view the beginning construction of the Death Star -- seemed pretty iconic to me. I think GL did a great job of letting the visuals tell the story.

 

yes it is. Especiallly when the mask closes over him. It's almost like a prison door shutting on him.
I don't have a problem with him yelling "NO" either. I think the reaction people have about it is that they just don't want to see big, bad Vader showing pain and emotion. But it's still Anakin in that suit, and he just found out his wife is dead.

 

The same wife he force-choked earlier and then left unconscious on the landing platform during his "my new empire" rant and duel with his best friend Obi-Wan? Yeah, I can see where he might have been concerned.



It would have been about impossible to screw up the PT so badly that I wouldn't enjoy them, but man, they had so much more potential than what we actually saw.

 

Yes the mask descent is iconic as is the whole intercutting with Padme's death. Perhaps the FIRST breath of Vader is the most iconic part of the whole scene.

 

There is something very powerful about that moment.

Darth Vader takes his first breath as Padme Amidala takes her last.

The last spark of goodness in Anakin dies and he becomes fully consumed by the darkness.

 

I think they could of done the nooo! Part better or maybe that's just because people have used it for jokes

 

uhh I didn't say he was a great person at that point. Okay so I guess there was some other reason he yelled NO. Enlighten us.

 

I didn't mean that there was another reason he said "Noooooooooo!" What I'm saying is he force-choked Padme to the point of being unconscious. And then while she's lying there unconscious on the landing platform he goes into a monologue about the Empire and then duels his best friend and mentor Obi-Wan - who never wanted to fight him, of course. That hardly seems to be the mentality of someone who's overly concerned about Padme, which is ironic considering the lengths he went to to prevent his premonitions about her death from coming true.

I think the whole Anakin/Padme love thing was poorly done from start to finish.

 

I found the scene to be ok, but there was just something a bit too cheesey and b-movie-ish about it. I know that's the genre on which SW is based, but somehow in amongst the dramatic end sequence of the PT, having the whole Frankenstein thing happening, him stomping around, yelling 'Noooooo' and making medical equipment explode was just ever so slightly comical, when it shouldn't have been at that point.

 

Vader being put in his armor is the most iconic SW moment, it's post festum of the PT climax.
To see a man who promised so much, who had everything and wanted more and being punished for that, that's just tragic and so powerful that it goes beyond everything seen in the movies. Also, his first words are great. That little Anakin that surfaced from inside of that armor, his question about Padme and his anger gives us another perspective on OT Vader. All in all, Lucas knew what he wanted and he delivered it to us perfectly.

 

Where was his concern on Mustafar?

 

Here's how I see it: On Mustafar, he had become completely enraged during his conversation with Padme, which built to a fever pitch when he saw Obi-Wan. To me, that's why he doesn't show concern for Padme when he chokes her and then lets her lie there while he and Obi circle the platform before their duel explodes. Also, if we are to believe his dialogue in the suit scene, he had also been aware (through Force sensing I'm assuming) when she was lying there that he hadn't killed her, so he doesn't have to physically check on her as Obi-Wan does. [Side note: perhaps Obi should've also been able to sense that she was just unconscious not dead, but prob the bit where he touches her is more a way of communicating to the audience that she's not dead. Which perhaps makes it a problematic inconsistency to some, though it feels perfectly plausible and natural to me when I watch the scene.]

Later on, after his lengthy surgery and being put in the suit, he's no longer in a state of rage, so his first thought/question is about Padme--until, of course, Palps tells him that Padme is dead, at which point he flies into a rage again. So to me, the whole point of his behavior toward Padme on Mustafar is to demonstrate how powerful the dark side is--how it can cause him to do things he never thought he would do, including lashing out against Padme and then letting her lie there while he fought with Obi-Wan. Given most of what we see of OT Vader, it still seems a little weird to me sometimes hearing "suit version" of Vader say a line like "Where's Padme? Is she alright?," but really it's not that different of a line (in terms of character motivation/emotional content) from the very personal "It's too late for me, son" line in ROTJ (However, I do think Vader's "Where's Padme?" lines lack a somewhat "poetic" quality, in both wording and delivery, when compared to that ROTJ line.)

I do agree that the scene's "cheesy/B-movie" flavor probably does go a little too far (even for SW) and can seem unintentionally comical. I can't remember if it struck me that way when I first saw it, though, and now I've seen so many jokes and parodies of the scene that I can't watch it without my reaction being at least somewhat affected by them. For me, the most powerful parts of the scene are the cuttings back and forth between Padme and Vader and those final pre-Vader-dialogue shots (the look in Vader's eyes as the mask approaches, his POV shot where we see the mask coming down, the "dentist drill" sound effect of the mask being attached, and the rotation of the table to vertical position). I like the Frankenstein connection in one way, though again, the Frankenstein story has been overdone and parodied so much that I agree it can take the viewer out of the scene by seeming unintentionally funny.

So, to answer the OP: yes, overall, I find the scene to be "iconic."

 

My opinion is that Anakin was not given over to the Dark Side in the same way that Sidious or Tyranus, or others were. He was passionate, where as the others were given to cold calculation. That's what made it possible for Sidious to seduce him. It went through is his heart more than his head.
But anyway if you don't think that spark of feeling remained in him, then the rest of the saga falls apart and he never would have saved Luke either.

 

Even if she isn't dead, a pregnant woman being unconscious after a violent episode isn't the kind of situation where you just say, "Oh well, she'll be fine. Just leave her there and she'll wake up at some point."

What it demonstrates to me is PT Anakin is a frickin' idiot and could have been a much better character.

Think back to Palpatine's office when Anakin kneels and becomes a Sith lord. Was he enraged then? Because very shortly afterwards he helped raid the Jedi temple and kill a bunch of people (plus little kids) that he had known for most of his life. He made a conscious decision to do that. That's stupid just like the Mustafar incident, and it did not require him being set off by the Padme/Obi-Wan thing.

Some of you drop all of your Real World sense to try to justify scenes that are poorly conceived and lack reason. Some of that is necessary in movies where we're talking about things like force powers, but the human element needs to be more realistic - and it's not here.

 

Not trying to "justify" anything really, just describing my response to/reading of the scene. Reading around on the JCF has made me aware of tons of things that really don't work for other fans (things that I was previously completely unaware were problematic for a number of fans), but I'm not interested in trying to persuade anyone to have different reactions than they do. (That's not what I meant to imply by quoting you by name--I thought I was just chiming in with a different view on the point you raised.) Even if I were interested in trying to do that, I think that it would probably be a pretty pointless effort--people are going to react in different ways, and while I do find reading various criticisms of things that didn't bother me before intellectually interesting, I doubt my future responses to those elements will be changed, either (though I can't say for sure as I haven't rewatched all the films since joining up here).

 

No, because Vader (in his black outfit, Jones' voice) was already so well defined in the OT that his presence in the PT didn't have much impact on the over-all history of Star Wars. While I didn't care for that scene, that's not why I'm saying it fails to qualify as "iconic" - it's because that particular scene does not rise above, or stand out from, Vader's other scene throughout Star Wars as a whole. Just my 2 credits.

 

Right, because love is SO black and white, powerful mixed feelings NEVER exist, and people NEVER hurt (including by means of serious violence) those that they love most (and regret it later), and it ALWAYS means they have no real concern for the person.
I get that you don't like the PT, but this sort of thing happens every day in the real world, and this IS Darth Vader doing these things (the guy with the penchant for light-sabering kids and blowing up planets); I would tend to think it fits that he is a bit unhealthy and dark when it comes to his love life.

In any case, the moment that the mask is locked into place and the breath starts is truly the iconic for me.

 

Yes, forgot to include the first breath in my above list of most powerful moments from the scene!

 

C'mon, now. We're talking about a guy who...

1) Attacked and killed his fellow Jedi.

2) Killed innocent children as they were looking to him for help.

(Both of the above happened before any "heat of the moment" excuses)

3) Choked his pregnant wife.

4) Tried to kill his best friend.

Those are the actions of an insane psychopath, not an otherwise normal person who is conflicted or lost his temper for a moment.

 

I agree that 2) on your list is the hardest to deal with (and yes, it wasn't a "heat of the moment" example like the Padme or Obi examples), and perhaps his conversion is too quick. But I find the Youngling scene very powerful--not something that I react negatively to when I'm watching the film (not meaning I like his actions of course!...just that it makes it so powerfully sad for me, which enhances my enjoyment of the larger-than-life, operatic tragic dimensions of Anakin's fall). And I wouldn't necessarily even use "real world" examples in trying to explain my response to it...I just see it as evidence of the power of the dark side (even a more calculated decision to embrace the dark side, not just a heat of the moment thing) to turn someone in the SW universe into an "insane psychopath." Again, not saying it's going to work for everyone, but I enjoy that whole sequence and it doesn't take me out of the film or anything.

 

Actually, I was referring here to your idea that he was abusive physically to Padme (or at least through force choke), but that somehow meant he didn't love her, and shouldn't have been crushed when he found out she was dead (that sort of thing happens all the time, you are clearly missing the boat if you think otherwise).

Heat of the moment excuses? That isn't even true in the real world; someone's internal makeup goes a long way toward determining these reactions in the real world.

I am not going to try to convince you that ROTS was a good movie, you have your mind made up. However, you have the events where he turned to the dark side all jumbled up. You are mixing apples and oranges, talking about the real world, then going into what he did when he turned to the dark side ( which was by a combination of real world persuasion AND supernatural means).

 

I actually don't think that Real World sensibilities apply that well to the scenes you are describing. The dark side isn't some real world psychological malady, but something GL created. The fictional malady known as the dark side is highly addictive and makes a person power-mad. It has such a powerful hold that once you submit to it, it's almost impossible to escape. That's why Yoda says that Vader is no longer Anakin Skywalker only a day or at most a few days after turning to the dark side. That's why Obi-Wan and Yoda think that Luke is foolish for trying to redeem his father. That's why Vader, himself, says apparently with regret to Luke: "It's is too late for me, Son" and "You don't know the power of the dark side." Vader isn't talking about Force choking and shooting lightning when he's talking about power here. He's saying that it's got such a powerful hold over him that he can't shake it even when his son wants him too. That's a pretty powerful hold when a person, even when he wants to, can't bring himself to escape it.

Then, if there's any doubt about this interpretation that the dark side has an intensely powerful hold on whoever falls to it, all one has to do is watch Anakin as he talks with Padme on Mustaphar. The look in his eye says it all when he tells her: "I have brought peace to the Republic. I am more powerful than the Chancellor. I can overthrow him. And together, you and I can rule the galaxy, make things the way we've always wanted them to be." Anakin has clearly lost all connection with reality. He's not on some bad acid trip. I think it's pretty clear from that dialogue (and the rest in that scene) and his delivery of it that Anakin has totally lost it to the dark side.

Now I'm sure some will counter, "Well, if Anakin's lost it to the dark side, then why does he still care about Padme?" Well, Sith still have feelings. In fact, the Sith are encouraged to embrace their passions and selfishly indulge them. It's the Jedi who are discouraged from having attachments. Maybe some people don't think this is true about the Sith because of what we've seen, but undoubtedly the real reason Vader lives a sexless life is because he's encased in a robotic suit and his little Vader's been burnt off. (BTW, does anyone know if that particular part of Vader's anatomy was repaired with a cybernetic replacement? It could explain why Vader likes to spend so much time in his hyperbaric chamber, couldn't it? )

Now, since Anakin still has a passionate attachment to Padme, does this mean that if Padme were to live, she and Anakin would live happily ever after? No, far from it. Anakin, once taken by the dark side, would have used Padme as he saw fit, including perhaps treating her cruelly if it served his whims, and he'd certainly never let her leave him when she wanted to escape his abuse.

So, Anakin's questioning if Padme is still alive is totally in keeping with our understanding of the dark side, and his learning of her death also logically sends him further into the dark side because her death severs his deep attachment to her against his wishes, and the Sith are angered whenever they can't have the world exactly as they want it to be.

So, maybe according to real world psychology, Anakin's behavior seems a little off (though real people do do some terrible things), but when you take into account our understanding of the dark side, Anakin behavior, I would argue, makes perfect sense.

 

I would mostly agree with this. I would, however, throw in that there are a lot of parallels to real world psychology and maladies in turning to the dark side (although it is, again, totally supernatural in itself). Those in the real world who commit genocide were monsters that were created by their environment, whereas someone who turned to the dark side was created by this supernatural malady. Certainly, even those we consider to be the biggest monsters in the real world still experience attachment and bonding to others, no matter how troubling the relationships they engage in may be.

 

Good point, Lee. And I would guess that GL probably intends there to be such real-world parallels to a lot of the fantasy elements. After all, if there weren't important connections to recognizable human experiences throughout the saga (however "larger than life" they become within the fantasy universe), I don't think we'd have the depth of responses that we do!