Do you feel Qui-Gon's importance in the film is necessary?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by DarthTorgo, Apr 4, 2002.

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Do you feel Qui-Gon's importance in the film is necessary?

Poll closed Mar 22, 2012.
Yes. 160 vote(s) 69.0%
No. 63 vote(s) 27.2%
I have no idea. 9 vote(s) 3.9%
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  1. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>I don't really care what AOTC will do for TPM, that's thinking in the wrong direction. I'm interested in what TPM did and will do for AOTC, for as far as we can judge that objectivly.

    On the other hand, I figure that if AOTC shows beyond any doubt that TPM was setting up the saga to head away from certain unpopular elements rather than towards them, some people might see it in a new light.

    Maybe...
  2. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    Well, was there a real shock factor with ANH? I mean, the clone wars were mentioned, but never really explained, and i will bet you all that the whole thing with the TF could be refeared to the same way in AOTC, just to show how worthless it was to spend a whole movie on that. Not to mention that we never see things like Paly minupliting anything, just him getting elected and then moving in AOTC, we never see the good deep stuff. So yes, TPM was wasted developing a charictor like Qui Gon who is then offed, and could never have been introduced, the story could have been changes slightly, and all would have been better.
  3. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    I posted this in another topic already, but it seems relevant here. Has anyone considered the fact that Lucas pushed Obi-Wan into the background during the Tatooine segment because he didn't want to create more plot inconsistencies later on by having him explore Mos Espa instead of Qui Gon? Imagine how many "Why didn't Obi-Wan recognise 3PO in ANH even though he met him in Anakin's hovel?" topics we'd have had. :)
    You may not like Qui-Gon being given more screentime than Obi-Wan, but it was done for a reason.
  4. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    I don't think so, C-3PO didn't look like C3PO yet. He was "naked". Obi-Wan didn't seem to "recognize" R2-D2 in ANH either and he saw him far more than he would have seen C3PO. He even heard him "commended for bravery" on the Queen's ship.

  5. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    Back in '77, ANH was certainly shocking, trust me. ;)

    The audience was thrown in an unknown galaxy in the middle of a story, of which they didn't know the beginning... With TPM they were put in a familiar galaxy at the beginning of a story of which they already knew the end.

    The power of ANH was that we knew little of the SW-galaxy, the weakness of TPM was that we knew too much.
  6. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    "I don't think so, C-3PO didn't look like C3PO yet. He was "naked". Obi-Wan didn't seem to "recognize" R2-D2 in ANH either and he saw him far more than he would have seen C3PO. He even heard him "commended for bravery" on the Queen's ship."

    3PO may have looked different, but no one would ever forget that prissy voice :) Plus, Anakin told them he was building a droid called 3PO.
    I can buy Obi-Wan not recognising R2, because all astromech droids are pretty much the same. But there's only one C-3PO.
  7. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    << posted this in another topic already, but it seems relevant here. Has anyone considered the fact that Lucas pushed Obi-Wan into the background during the Tatooine segment because he didn't want to create more plot inconsistencies later on by having him explore Mos Espa instead of Qui Gon? Imagine how many "Why didn't Obi-Wan recognise 3PO in ANH even though he met him in Anakin's hovel?" topics we'd have had. >>

    Well, we all know how concerned Lucas is with continuity....................


    Of course, if that was the case, people could probably invent some lame explanation for that, just like they do with everything now, so I don't see why it's a problem. Please don't tell me that if that had happened, the fact that he didn't recognize 3PO in ANH would convert you into the Basher Side. Yeah, I can swallow that.

    Anyway, who would be to say that he DIDN'y recognize 3PO? Just because he didn't say anything doesn't mean he didn't recognize him? He didn't say anything about Leia being Luke's sister either when he saw her hologram....

    Oh, and it's not like Qui-Gon ever interacted with or saw 3PO either. So, if we simply changed him into Obi-Wan, it wouldn't be a problem because he never interacts with him.
  8. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    "Please don't tell me that if that had happened, the fact that he didn't recognize 3PO in ANH would convert you into the Basher Side. Yeah, I can swallow that."

    No, Torgo, but it would have given the film's existing bashers one more thing to complain about. Search your feelings, you know it to be true. :)

    "Anyway, who would be to say that he DIDN'y recognize 3PO? Just because he didn't say anything doesn't mean he didn't recognize him? He didn't say anything about Leia being Luke's sister either when he saw her hologram.... "

    I'm sure if Obi-Wan had recognised 3PO he would have said something like "Now that's a droid I've not seen in a long time . . . a long time." :) And how would he recognise Leia? He only saw her as an infant, if at all.

    "Oh, and it's not like Qui-Gon ever interacted with or saw 3PO either. So, if we simply changed him into Obi-Wan, it wouldn't be a problem because he never interacts with him."

    Maybe they didn't sit down and play a game of holo chess, but Qui-Gon definitely saw him around the hovel and at the podrace. Plus, Anakin blabbed to everyone that he was building a droid called 3PO.

    So, to sum up, Qui-Gon was important for the following reasons:

    1. To show how a normal master/padawan relationship works, before we see the flawed relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan.

    2. To make Obi-Wan a more tragic, rather than arrogant, character as he is fulfilling a promise to his dead master.

    3. To add drama by allowing at least one of the main heroes to die in TPM (Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padme couldn't be killed off, in case you forgot).

    4. To give the Jedi Council a reason to allow Anakin's training (possible guilt over Qui-Gon's death?)

    5. To reduce the number of plot inconsistenices later on (as I've already mentioned).

    I'm sure there's more.
  9. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    "And how would he recognise Leia? He only saw her as an infant, if at all."


    Yeah, it was the daughter of some OTHER cat from Alderaan who Ben had served years before in the Clone Wars and who had issues with the Empire... ;)
  10. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    <<"Please don't tell me that if that had happened, the fact that he didn't recognize 3PO in ANH would convert you into the Basher Side. Yeah, I can swallow that."

    No, Torgo, but it would have given the film's existing bashers one more thing to complain about. Search your feelings, you know it to be true. >>

    Actually, if it had been Obi-Wan who had discovered Anakin, insisted on his training, went into Tatooine, etc, chances are I wouldn't be a basher, or maybe only a part time one, because then we'd have a movie that FEELS like a prequel movie.

    <<"Anyway, who would be to say that he DIDN'y recognize 3PO? Just because he didn't say anything doesn't mean he didn't recognize him? He didn't say anything about Leia being Luke's sister either when he saw her hologram.... "

    I'm sure if Obi-Wan had recognised 3PO he would have said something like "Now that's a droid I've not seen in a long time . . . a long time." And how would he recognise Leia? He only saw her as an infant, if at all. >>

    I think he knew that Bail Organa's "child" was really Anakin's daughter.

    <<"Oh, and it's not like Qui-Gon ever interacted with or saw 3PO either. So, if we simply changed him into Obi-Wan, it wouldn't be a problem because he never interacts with him."

    Maybe they didn't sit down and play a game of holo chess, but Qui-Gon definitely saw him around the hovel and at the podrace. Plus, Anakin blabbed to everyone that he was building a droid called 3PO.>>

    He only mentioned that 3PO was the droids name to Padmé. Obi-Wan would have never learned his name. And, in both cases, Obi-Wan would not have been nearly close enough to be familiar with him.

    <<So, to sum up, Qui-Gon was important for the following reasons:

    1. To show how a normal master/padawan relationship works, before we see the flawed relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan. >>

    TPM did a real crappy job of this. For the one portion of the movie that could have showed this the most (the Tattooine section), they spend it apart. And even when they were together, there was little sense of a bond or any chemistry between them. Even Ewan McGregor said as much.

    <<2. To make Obi-Wan a more tragic, rather than arrogant, character as he is fulfilling a promise to his dead master. >>

    No, it makes him much less tragic, and much less interesting by eliminating any sense of responsibility from Obi-Wan for what happens. It sets Obi-Wan up as a mere "victim of circumstance", as opposed to having his own very human qualities leading to trouble. I hate all this "victim of circumstance" bull@#$% set up with Anakin and Obi-Wan in TPM.

    <<3. To add drama by allowing at least one of the main heroes to die in TPM (Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padme couldn't be killed off, in case you forgot). >>

    If you gotta kill of someone to make it more dramatic kill of Panaka or Sio Bibble. It's not like Panaka shows up in episode II anyway. And as for killing Sio Bibble, the Neimoidians threatened him with death. As it is, the Neimoidians come off as making a bunch of empty threats.

    <<4. To give the Jedi Council a reason to allow Anakin's training (possible guilt over Qui-Gon's death?) >>

    Huh? I never got a sense of this from the movie. In fact, I have no idea why the council decided to reverse their decision so quickly, but the most possible reason is probably because the wonder brat blew up that ship.

    <<5. To reduce the number of plot inconsistenices later on (as I've already mentioned). >>

    Plot inconsistencies? You mean, like Qui-Gon being Obi-Wan's master instead of Yoda? Like 3PO not recognizing the planet he was built on? You mean, like instead of Obi-Wan being portrayed as being reckless, he comes off as being ridiculously by-the-book? You mean, like Obi-Wan basically being forced into training Anakin instead of "taking it upon himself? Yup, TPM is free of plot inconsistencies as it is.

    I'm sure there's more. >>
  11. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4

    :_|

    ...That's how I feel about people complaining about inconsistencies, I hate the cliché gusher line, but here it's oh so valid:

    Judge not until the PT is finished

    C3PO not recognizing Tatooine? oh please... :_|

    Do you really think you know starwars better than Lucas?



  12. rodan70 FanForce Chapter Rep

    Chapter Rep VIP
    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2002
    star 4
    Well, if Obi-Wan would have went into mos espa, he would have just blown off Anakin and told him to go home. Where would the story go from there?
  13. dahveed72 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 3
    quote:

    Do you really think you know starwars better than Lucas?


    No, but there are many people working in movies today that know directing,screenwriting,editing,etc... MUCH better than Lucas. If only he could admit this to himself.
  14. Vaderbait Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 6
    Actually, Qui-Gon's importance in TPM has nothing to do with "proving anything" in TPM. It mostly fits together in AOTC and you'll see why Qui-Gon was necessary instead of Obi-Wan finding Anakin.

    It all has to do with similarity in the films...
  15. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    Um, Vaderbait is, well, to be blunt, wrong. With little tweeks to the story, Qui could be lifted right out without a problem in terms of having a coherent plot throughout TPM and AOTC. E3 may be diffrent, but given all that has to happen, will that much time be spent on forcing Qui to fit in?

    Simply put here is the recap of the argument from my POV. If you believe that the story of the PT can be better and in theory changed, Qui is one of the first things to go. If you believe that the story is great as is, or can not/should not be changed, then Qui is needed.
  16. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    Actually, Qui-Gon's importance in TPM has nothing to do with "proving anything" in TPM. It mostly fits together in AOTC and you'll see why Qui-Gon was necessary instead of Obi-Wan finding Anakin.

    No Lucas is working backwards, Qui-Gon's importance wasn't necessary for what happens in AOTC because, as I know what you are referring to, he didn't even know that was going to be in AOTC at the time he created Qui-Gon. It was another "last minute addition". So it's the other way, what is going on in AOTC is being used to try and give Qui-Gon importance he really didn't have, basically to give him an excuse for being. Because as Enforcer says, with a few little tweeks, there really isn't anything that couldn't have worked without Qui-Gon. It would still parallel properly and fit with the themes.

  17. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    Why do gushers always assume I DON'T know what happens in Episode II whenever I complain about Qui-Gon, and insist on saying "You'll understand in a couple of weeks."?

  18. dahveed72 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 3
    I know, isnt that irritating?

    Its like being condescended to by a small child.(not saying youre a child, but honestly this is the feeling i get)

    The truth is that most bashers are generally well educated and well informed. So gushers please drop the condescention cuz youre embarrasing yourselves.
  19. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Why do gushers always assume I DON'T know what happens in Episode II whenever I complain about Qui-Gon, and insist on saying "You'll understand in a couple of weeks."?

    Because this is a spoiler free forum, and we're not allowed to discuss Epsiode II spoilers yet?
  20. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    So? Just because I'm posting on a spoiler free forum, they should not assume I don't know spoilers.
  21. babymouseinzehaus Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2002
    star 2
    Qui-Gon's my favourite character in TPM, but to answer the question.. yes because otherwise Anakin would never have become a jedi. After all it was Qui-Gon's dying wish, which in turn convinced Yoda to allow anakin to become Obi-Wans learner.
  22. DarthKnight Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2002
    star 1
    After you see AOTC, you will see just how important Qui-gon is in this story. AOTC ROCKS!! I was blown away the whole time and there are a lot of little surprises during the ride. :)
  23. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    Actually, the small one line important part with Qui Gon could have been droped with no problem. Still, little tweeks and he is out.
  24. Bhamnelli Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2002
    star 1
    Yes, here is why. By Qui-Gon finding this kid and setting him free by "cheating"(chance cube), it shows how the force is not always a good thing. Hance Yoda's line in Empire, "always in motion is the force", when he tells Luke that the Force cannot aid in seeing the future. To the response that Obi-Wan's character was not developed due to Qui-Gon, it is quite the contrary. Because Obi-Wan kills Darth Maul, ultimately he has opened the doors for Anakin to become Vader. w/out Mauls death at the hands of Obi-Wan, Anakin is never trained or discovered by Palpatine. Darth Maul wins, both Jedi die and Maul becomes "Vader" in a sense. So, without the original actions by Qui-Gon, and his defiance that is passed on to Obi-Wan and ultimately Anakin, we do not have Episodes 4-6.
  25. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    Again, there is no reason Obi-Wan himself could not have done that. Qui-Gon was not a necessary creation to bring any of that out. A few tweaks and it works without him.
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