Do you feel Qui-Gon's importance in the film is necessary?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by DarthTorgo, Apr 4, 2002.

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Do you feel Qui-Gon's importance in the film is necessary?

Poll closed Mar 22, 2012.
Yes. 160 vote(s) 69.0%
No. 63 vote(s) 27.2%
I have no idea. 9 vote(s) 3.9%
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  1. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    AOTC:

    the plot thickens...
  2. Darth_Schnebit Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2002
  3. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    Don't want to delve into spoilers too much, but I love how Lucas has linked Yoda, Dooku, Sidious, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Anakin all together. The man's a genius.
  4. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    Well, I saw AOTC, and I liked it, but just like I predicted, it didn't make me sudddenly realize why it was such a good idea for Episode I to focus on Qui-Gon and Anakin's relationship, as opposed to Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship, in spite of what Go-Mer Tonic has been telling me. Actually, it kind of strengthened my convictions. Had episode I focused on Obi-Wan's relationship with anakin, it would not be so much of a jump in AOTC, and the movie would have been easier to follow, since there wouldn't be so much new stuff that we'd have to follow and keep track of.
  5. Darth_Schnebit Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2002
    As for Qui-Gon Jinn's importance, he serves as the following:

    1). His character gives us a good idea of what the typical Jedi was like during their prime (you never get a real "feel" for the Jedi in the OT).

    2). His character's strenghts lend more credibility to Obi-Wan's failure in training Anikin. Obi-wan is barely a Jedi himself when he takes Anikin as a padawan.

    3). By focusing on Qui-Gon's relationship w/Anikin rather than Obi-Wan's, it adds to Anikins feeling of loss (Qui-gon believed in him when no one else did, he was like a father-figure to him - shoes that Obi-Wan couldn't fill, Anikin respected Qui-Gon where he doens't respect Obi-Wan at all) which fuels his turn to the dark side.

    Lucas could have accomplished all of this w/o Qui-Gon, but that's the way he chose to tell the story.
  6. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    As for Qui-Gon Jinn's importance, he serves as the following:

    1). His character gives us a good idea of what the typical Jedi was like during their prime (you never get a real "feel" for the Jedi in the OT).


    Wait, I thought Qui-Gon was supposed to be a maverick. If he's such an indivuidual, so unlike the other Jedi, then how on earth can his character give us a "feel" for what the "typical" Jedi was like during his prime? He's giving us a feel for what a Jedi was like who disagreed with the council and was at odds with many of the other Jedi's methods, not a "typical" jedi.

    2). His character's strenghts lend more credibility to Obi-Wan's failure in training Anikin. Obi-wan is barely a Jedi himself when he takes Anikin as a padawan.

    Oh yeah, like Obi-Wan spending the whole movie talking about how dangerous the boy was and what a mistake he thought training him was, and then at the end of the movie becomes MAGICALLY conviced that Anakin is chosen one, just because the wonder brat blew up a ship by accident. Right, I can see that happening. Ditto for the rest of the Jedi Council. Lucas really "nailed" the "credibility" on the issue of Anakins' training, didn't he ?

    3). By focusing on Qui-Gon's relationship w/Anikin rather than Obi-Wan's, it adds to Anikins feeling of loss (Qui-gon believed in him when no one else did, he was like a father-figure to him - shoes that Obi-Wan couldn't fill, Anikin respected Qui-Gon where he doens't respect Obi-Wan at all) which fuels his turn to the dark side.

    Oh yeah, like Anakin didn't get a feeling of loss when he discovers his mom's body brutally murdered by Tusken Raiders. Right. Nope. No feeling of loss there. We needed Qui-Gon to give Anakin a feeling of loss. Obviously, his failure to save his mother did nothing to give him such feelings. Certainly not enough to not require the death of a Qui-Gon character. What the hell does Anakin's feeling of loss with Qui-Gon's death have to do with him turning to the dark side? This is one thing that doesn't play into Episode II AT ALL. If it did, you might have a point, but it doesn't.
  7. Darth_Schnebit Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2002
    Wait, I thought Qui-Gon was supposed to be a maverick. If he's such an indivuidual, so unlike the other Jedi, then how on earth can his character give us a "feel" for what the "typical" Jedi was like during his prime? He's giving us a feel for what a Jedi was like who disagreed with the council and was at odds with many of the other Jedi's methods, not a "typical" jedi.

    Qui-Gon wasn't a maverick. I don't think that a maverick would have ever been allowed to reach the level of "Master". He had enough strenghth of character and integrity to trust and act on his intuition even if it was in contrast to what the "all knowing" council thought. This is exactly where Obi-Wan was lacking - He wasn't strong enough or experienced enough to trust his own judgement. IMHO, Qui-Gon embodied a truer sense of what the Jedi were than any other member of the council (a bunch of mindless drones - they all "paid for their lack of vision" in the end anyway). What I meant by "feel for a typical Jedi" was that in the OT the only Jedi you see are two washed up old men (one that was half-machine/cripple) and a boy who magically learned on his own in the course of a few years what others took a lifetime to learn.

    Oh yeah, like Obi-Wan spending the whole movie talking about how dangerous the boy was and what a mistake he thought training him was, and then at the end of the movie becomes MAGICALLY conviced that Anakin is chosen one, just because the wonder brat blew up a ship by accident. Right, I can see that happening. Ditto for the rest of the Jedi Council. Lucas really "nailed" the "credibility" on the issue of Anakins' training, didn't he ?

    So you agree w/me then? Your answer proved my point better than I did! IMHO, The only reason that Obi-Wan thought that Anakin was dangerous is because "the council" thought so. He didn't come to these conclusions on his own.

    Oh yeah, like Anakin didn't get a feeling of loss when he discovers his mom's body brutally murdered by Tusken Raiders. Right. Nope. No feeling of loss there. We needed Qui-Gon to give Anakin a feeling of loss. Obviously, his failure to save his mother did nothing to give him such feelings. Certainly not enough to not require the death of a Qui-Gon character. What the hell does Anakin's feeling of loss with Qui-Gon's death have to do with him turning to the dark side? This is one thing that doesn't play into Episode II AT ALL. If it did, you might have a point, but it doesn't.

    Yes, it does play in. The loss of Anakin's mother is just another nail in the coffin (even this by itself is not enough to turn Anakin). I wasn't trying to say that the death of Qui-Gon caused Anakin to turn to the dark side. I was just pointing out that, like everything else, it was a contributing factor. Anakin himself admits that he feels that Qui-Gon would have understood him better than Obi-Wan. Had Qui-Gon survived, in all likelyhood he would have been able to help Anakin control his out-of-control emotions early on (through having the experience that Obi-Wan lacked). Unlike Obi-Wan and the council, Qui-Gon was sensetive to Anakin's feelings for his mother. The point is, he never really respects Obi-Wan or the council (would you respect anyone that didn't believe in you). This lack of respect caused Anakin to rebel. With Qui-Gon, it might have been different. His character in TPM shows that, and it adds creedence (by showing the contrast between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan) to the explaination of Obi-Wan's failure.

    The point is that Lucas could have accomplished this in an infinite number of ways. He chose to include Qui-Gon. If you are going to argue this point, then why not argue the point of wheter or not it was important to make Anakin a slave, or why in the world would Lucas have Anakin create C-3PO (no matter what he comes up with, the explaination will be lame!).

    A better question would have been why did Lucas choose to include Qui-Gon at all (and thus add to the loopholes that he will hopefully fill in) when in TESB Obi-Wan tells luke to "go to Dego
  8. Darth_Schnebit Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2002
  9. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    I just think it was stupid to have Qui guilt OB1 into training a brat that is oviously unstable. Why the heck did the jedi take such a risk. The Jedi are supose to be detached, yet Ani still cares about his mother. Yeah, he is the choisen one, but Qui is stupid to not think of other things. Qui was a real bleep to guilt OB1 to train a kid who becomes unstable, who is rebelious and who has too many attachments.

    The more I think about it, the more messed up Qui was. Was the choisen one worth the lives of nearly all the jedi? Worth burdening one of the greatest jedi of all time? I would not be surprised if he was touching the Dark side. That, and the fact that OB1 could have done allot of what Qui did, maybe better, he really was a bad choice to put in the film the way he was.
  10. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    Do you feel Dooku's reference to Qui Gon in AOTC is another excuse for his appearance in TPM, or is there more to it?
  11. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
  12. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    Dooku could have just as easly said there are lots of jedi who see the coruption and what not. Heck, any two bit jedi with a line or two could make it clear that he/she/it is disalusioned. Especally if the first third of the PT had been better and the entire trilogy been adaquitly planed out with more than a rough outline.

    Look, let me re-explain. Exactly as is, Qui cannot just be lifted out of TPM and everything be fine. It would be like the CG people not adding Jar Jar into any sceen, the characters would litterly be talking to nothing. But if the story was tweeked, in just very little ways, Qui can be compleatly kicked out. Of both films.

    Plo, partly. I sort of see it more like this. Some have said that the mids were not mentioned in AOTC because there was no point to, nowhere where it would fit in nicely. Well, i think that this is a place where by chance, it did fit in nicely to drop Qui's name a few times.

    ShaneP, I hope i did, but if you were not asking me, then well,
  13. Rowan Kin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2000
    star 1
    Now that Ep II is out, Qui-Gon's importance is clear. It is through his death and somehow (as yet unexplained) coming back to cry out at Anakin in an effort to stop his slaughter of the Tusken raiders that Yoda and Obi-Wan learn how to come back as blue ghosties.

    This can't be done by O-W for the obvious reason that he's still alive in Ep IV and he trained Anakin. Qui-Gon is the logical choice--he found Anakin, believed in him, cared for him. It is with Qui whom Anakin bonds.

    Ref: page 276 Ep II novelization:

    "And then he heard a voice, a, familiar voice, crying, "No, Anakin! No! Don't! No!"

    It was Qui-Gon. Yoda knew it was Qui-Gon. But Qui-Gon was dead, had become one with the Force! One could not retain consciousness and sense of self in that state; one could not speak from beyond the grave.

    But Yoda had heard the ghostly call, and in his deep meditative state, his thoughts focused as precisely as they had ever been, the Jedi Master knew he had not been mistaken."

    Movie ref: We hear Qui cry out "Anakin! Anakin! Nooooooooo!"
  14. Rowan Kin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2000
    star 1
    Darth_Schnebit:

    Good response re: Qui-Gon as a maverick. His detractors often ignore the basic facts like that. He's been a Jedi for 40 years, is training his third padawan, and is still being sent on delicate and important missions. He may annoy the Council on occasion, but he has their full trust and support on most things. There is no evidence to the contrary.
  15. Darth_Schnebit Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2002
    If you really want to discuss mistakes...

    Was it:

    1). Qui-Gon insisting on training Anakin, even though the council felt that he was dangerous...

    Or...

    2). The council, who in their opinion felt Anakin was a danger, entrusting Obi-Wan (who was barely a Jedi himself) with his training?

    You would think that knowing what they knew, the council would have paid particular attention and care to Anakin's training and trused it to a more experienced Jedi.

    I'm not taking anything away from Obi-Wan, but the fact is in EII he has only been a Jedi Knight for 10 years. Giving him Anakin (who is thought to be the "Chosen One" and dangerous)as his first Padawan to train was probably more responsibility than he could bear at the time and was a collosal mistake on the part of the Council.

    Qui-Gon, with his much greater experience (I knew Obi-Wan wasn't his 1st Padawan, but I didn't know he was his third! - thanks Rowan) would have been much better equiped to help Anakin stay on the path...

    Everyone keeps dogging Qui, but who's really at fault here?
  16. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Well, I'd say that it's Qui Gon's fault that Anakin was trained in the first place, although from Episode II, the problem isn't so much with Obi Wan's poor teaching as Anakin's frustration with not being the most powerful Jedi ever already.



    >>>>Oh yeah, like Obi-Wan spending the whole movie talking about how dangerous the boy was and what a mistake he thought training him was, and then at the end of the movie becomes MAGICALLY conviced that Anakin is chosen one, just because the wonder brat blew up a ship by accident. Right, I can see that happening. Ditto for the rest of the Jedi Council. Lucas really "nailed" the "credibility" on the issue of Anakins' training, didn't he ?

    1) Obi Wan mentions ONCE that the council can see that "the boy is dangerous." Not "spending the whole movie talking about how dangerous the boy is." Really, this is almost as thin as the "TPM was all about poo" argument...
    2) I don't remember Obi Wan ever saying that he was convinced that Anakin was (or wasn't) the chosen one- in TPM or AOTC. So I don't know where you got that from either.
    3) What has your response got to do with Darth Schnebit's point that "his character's strengths lend more credibility to Obi-Wan's failure in training Anikin. Obi-wan is barely a Jedi himself when he takes Anikin as a padawan"?

    >>>>Oh yeah, like Anakin didn't get a feeling of loss when he discovers his mom's body brutally murdered by Tusken Raiders. Right. Nope. No feeling of loss there. We needed Qui-Gon to give Anakin a feeling of loss.

    Erm... did that happen in Phantom Menace? No. In Phantom Menace, Anakin was cut off from his life and thrown into a new one, and Qui Gon (the bridge between the two) was killed. In AOTC, his old life comes back.

    >>>>I just think it was stupid to have Qui guilt OB1 into training a brat that is oviously unstable. Why the heck did the jedi take such a risk. The Jedi are supose to be detached, yet Ani still cares about his mother. Yeah, he is the choisen one, but Qui is stupid to not think of other things.

    Yep- Qui Gon is too focussed on the here and now to understand the consequences of his actions. Anakin was taken away and trained as a Jedi because Qui Gon used the Force to cheat a dice roll- not until after he'd formed emotional bonds with both his mother and Padme.

    Qui was a real bleep to guilt OB1 to train a kid who becomes unstable, who is rebelious and who has too many attachments.

    But he's the Chosen One. Qui Gon believed (for some reason) that he HAD to be trained in the Jedi Arts to fulfil the prophecy and restore balance to the Force. He obviously thought that he'd be able to resist the temptation of the Dark Side.

    >>>>The more I think about it, the more messed up Qui was. Was the choisen one worth the lives of nearly all the jedi? Worth burdening one of the greatest jedi of all time? I would not be surprised if he was touching the Dark side. That, and the fact that OB1 could have done allot of what Qui did, maybe better, he really was a bad choice to put in the film the way he was.

    Why is he such a bad choice? I think he's an excellent character, who's obviously trying to do what he thinks is best, to do what he thinks is right. But he doesn't understand the consequences of his actions, because he's too narrowly focussed on the here and now- the Living Force. He doesn't know that Anakin will wipe out the Jedi, I'm sure of that much. But I would be surprised if that focus on the Living Force didn't turn out to be a key to the disappearing/reappearing thing.

    I don't know whether I'd agree that he's touching on the Dark Side myself. I mean, he's determined to get Anakin trained as a Jedi, which as Yoda points out, is Qui Gon's opinion and (presumably) not the Will of the Force. He goes to any lengths possible to make sure it happens.
  17. Darth_Schnebit Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2002
    SomeRandomNerd:

    Good point - probably the most reasonable argument that I've heard so far:

    Yep- Qui Gon is too focussed on the here and now to understand the consequences of his actions. Anakin was taken away and trained as a Jedi because Qui Gon used the Force to cheat a dice roll- not until after he'd formed emotional bonds with both his mother and Padme.

    If you could find fault w/Qui, that would be it. He openly admits to Obi that "You are a much wiser man than I". I don't think that he was a sith. He was trying to do what he felt was right - but remember "The road to hell was paved with good intentions."

    I realy think that we have yet to realize what Lucas has intended for Qui's character. He both contrasts and complements Obi-Wan's character - the importance of this will be revealed (hopefully) in EIII.

    But I would be surprised if that focus on the Living Force didn't turn out to be a key to the disappearing/reappearing thing.

    I definately think that this idea is plausable.

    Well, I'd say that it's Qui Gon's fault that Anakin was trained in the first place, although from Episode II, the problem isn't so much with Obi Wan's poor teaching as Anakin's frustration with not being the most powerful Jedi ever already.

    I don't think that it was poor teaching on the part of Obi-Wan, I just question whether or not Obi/Anakin was a good match. I think that the lack of respect thing played a big role in Anakin's frustration. He didn't view Obi-Wan as an authority figure. Perhaps he viewes him (even though he admits to the contrary) more as a brother than a father. They are roughly 15 years appart in age, and when Qui died I think that they both felt that they had lost their "father".
  18. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    Would it have been better if OB1 was the master and his apprentance in the film became a jedi in the end, then he trains Ani? In a way, you could have the same (ever so vital) conections with someone besides OB1 with Ani, and it would give OB1 more expernce. One thing that now confusis me is why did the counsole give the very dangerious and important and strong Ani to a compleatly newbe?
  19. DarthTorgo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2002
    star 4
    <<Wait, I thought Qui-Gon was supposed to be a maverick. If he's such an indivuidual, so unlike the other Jedi, then how on earth can his character give us a "feel" for what the "typical" Jedi was like during his prime? He's giving us a feel for what a Jedi was like who disagreed with the council and was at odds with many of the other Jedi's methods, not a "typical" jedi.

    Qui-Gon wasn't a maverick.>>

    Uhh, yes he was. Hell, in those promotional posters for Episode I that were released overseas, they even describe him as being "One rebel" (You can see it clearly on the second disc of the DVD).




    Oh, and to answer EnforcerSG's question, it was the "will of the script".
  20. Darth_Schnebit Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2002
    Targo,

    Uhh, No he wasn't. Tuhh, I mean, If you want to get technical, Um, here is the definiton of "Maverick" and "Rebel" as defined by the American Heritage Dictionary:

    Maverick 1. One that resists adherence to a group.

    Rebel 1. To refuse alliegience to and oppose by force an established government or ruling authority. 2. To resist or defy an authority or a convention.


    Now Targo, you may argue that Qui fits these definitions perfectly. I would argue otherwise. Qui-Gon Jinn was very much a Jedi. Even though he may not have agreed w/the council at times, he still obeyed their wishes unconditionally, and adheared to the Jedi Code. When he was specifically instructed not to train Anakin by the council, he listened. He may not have always agreed w/the council, but he always obeyed them and followed the Jedi Code. If he was truly a Maverick Jedi, he would have listened to the council when it suited him, and disobeyed them when it didn't (regardless of what was written on a poster). He would have trained Anakin in secret (or even out in the open for that matter) regardless of what the council said. Now, Obi-Wan's comments at the end of TPM bordered on rebelious "I will train Anakin, even without the approval of the council".

    If anyone fits the definition of Maverick, it's Anakin. He want's to be a Jedi (I guess to be technical he wants the powers of the Jedi), but he blatently disregards their wishes, doesn't follow the code (gets married in secret), etc.
  21. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>Even though he may not have agreed w/the council at times, he still obeyed their wishes unconditionally, and adheared to the Jedi Code.

    Actually, that's not quite true.

    EXT. PALACE OF THE JEDI - BALCONY - SUNSET

    OBI-WAN and QUI-GON stand outside the palace on a balcony.

    OBI-WAN : The boy will not pass the Council's tests, Master, and you know it. He is too old.
    QUI-GON : Anakin will become A Jedi...I promise you.

    OBI-WAN : Don't defy the Council, Master..not again.

    QUI-GON : I will do what I must.

    OBI-WAN : Master, you could be on the Council by now if you would just follow the code. They will not go along with you this time.

    QUI-GON : You still have much to learn, my young apprentice.
  22. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    Do you think Qui used the force on OB1 to make him train the brat?

    Although Qui was important for TPM (didnt have to me IMHO) he is nothing more than a glorfied side character in the Saga. Maybe if OB1 was better developed in TPM, and Qui was still there doing all that he did, it would be ok, but that didnt happen.

    All of the Qui refrences in AOTC were not planed to be there from TPM i think. However, nor do i think that they were put in only to justify his character. I think that when Lucas was writting the story, there were times when it would help to mention him. Lucas saw an oppturnity, and took it.
  23. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    You do know that Qui "Living Force" Gon is (according to the AOTC novel) the first Jedi to speak from beyond the grave, don't you?

    And speculation has been that he'd be more likely to appear in III than II for quite a few months before Clones was released...

    You don't think that was planned?
  24. Darth_Schnebit Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2002
    Do you really think that this qualifies Qui-Gon as a Maverick?
  25. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    And speculation has been that he'd be more likely to appear in III than II for quite a few months before Clones was released...

    You don't think that was planned?


    No it wasn't. It certainly wasn't planned for him to be the apprentice of some guy who left the Jedi to join the Sith because Lucas didn't even know who the Sith was going to be when he finished with TPM. It's backwards, Qui-Gon wasn't there for these things but now these things are being used to justify his existence, even though they came after the fact. And ultimately, there is nothing they couldn't have done without Qui-Gon, or at least without Qui-Gon taking over the whole bloody film in TPM, by simply doing some minor tweaking to the script. It just left Obi-Wan, a character who HAD to be there and had to be important due to the place set for him in the OT, shortchanged and lacking motivations and depth.
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