Do you feel that the JCF should allow 'same gender relationships' to be portrayed in the fan fiction

I'm not here to make friends with bigots on any side of the fence.... conservative or liberal. And the objective is equality... either by eliminating slash entirely, or allowing both kinds.

I'd be perfectly comfortable with no slash being allowed... at least it would put homosexuality and heterosexuality on equal footing.

Am I willing to destroy TFN's boards for this?

The question you should ask yourself is... Would an Indian-born, nearsighted immigrant with cerebral palsy the kind of person who would use his media connections and financial resources to destroy bigotry wherever it exists in this world if he had the opportunity?

I think that question answers itself. Don't you?

Secondly... Having identified myself as belonging to several minorities and/or disadvantaged groups.. If they wanted to get rid of me they might as well cover this website in a pile of oily rags.

 

And there's that "bigot" word. Warning has been given several times and the policy has been explained. Sorry, Breezy--I did mean to leave it open for your poll to end, but I said several times that if people were going to be judgmental about their opponents, the lock was happening.


EDIT: Apology--I have a headache and misread. You were calling people on both sides bigots, and that's true about people on both sides from time to time. Unlocked.

 

I'd be perfectly comfortable with no slash being allowed... at least it would put homosexuality and heterosexuality on equal footing.

Slash refers specifically to what's being called SSR in this thread, not to hetero stories. And quite frankly, I agree with Kit - this kind of language isn't the way to get things to go your way, at least not in the long run.

Mel

 

I'm not here to make friends with bigots on any side of the fence.... conservative or liberal. And the objective is equality... either by eliminating slash entirely, or allowing both kinds.


What if not everyone believes in your version of equality, or even equality at all? Are their views and beliefs therefore wrong and not as good?

I'd be perfectly comfortable with no slash being allowed... at least it would put homosexuality and heterosexuality on equal footing.

Am I willing to destroy TFN's boards for this?

The question you should ask yourself is... Would an Indian-born, nearsighted immigrant with cerebral palsy the kind of person who would use his media connections and financial resources to destroy bigotry wherever it exists in this world if he had the opportunity?

I think that question answers itself. Don't you?


So you would set out to destroy a site based on your points of views and beliefs?

If you believe so strongly in equality and tolerance, what do you say about more conservative views?

 

Okay, guys. Enough. We all need to back off and cool off, and I mean now. (Myself very much included in that.)

This is the situation:

There are several people in this community who would like to have the same rating level for slash as for het. They have spoken and made some compelling arguments, but the arguments aren't at present doing much, since they're just in a thread. There are also people who disagree, and they have also made arguments. The core staff has made its final statement on the subject, and likely will not return to this thread and sift through six hundred posts.

Already, there is a pro-SSR petition online (I would recommend printing it out and getting ink signatures, or at least having some way to confirm the ISPs on the e-sigs). This should include information that addresses the concerns expressed and shows the owners that they might be less dire than is assumed--calling stations that air W&G or BtVS would probably be a good idea, to see what kind of response they've had to their respective shows and the portrayal of homosexuality. It should include info from traditionally conservative markets as well as from traditionally liberal ones.

If those who agree with the core staff's decision want to put together a counter-petition, that might also be advisable, with the same advice given for the pro-SSR petition.

 

What if not everyone believes in your version of equality, or even equality at all?

I never asked anyone to agree with me. If they happen to disagree, they can express their disagreement. It isn't for me to tell them how to think. I am speaking purely for myself and my beliefs. My beliefs direct me to be true to my own nature... and my nature is not one of diplomacy where I have nothing to lose. No one here holds any true power over me... and knowing that, I am free to speak the truth of what's on my mind. If you don't like what's on my mind, you don't have to read it... just like if I don't like this website, I don't have to be here.

Believe me... I'm rethinking whether or not I should continue to patronize this site. As long as I do, I'm being a bigot myself for believing in equality and yet patronizing a site that isn't practicing it.

Are their views and beliefs therefore wrong and not as good?

Without turning this into a philosophical discussion, let me say I don't believe in these constructs as being absolutes. I don't believe that "good" and "bad" or "right" and "wrong" exist anywhere in this universe except in our imagination. As such, I'm not taking this course of action because I believe it's "right" or "good" for everyone. I just believe it's what I must do in order to be true to myself... just as the owners of this site may believe that disliking homosexuality is what they must do to be true to themselves.

I don't want them to like homosexuality. I don't want to change people's views on homosexuality. I'm not asking them to call up every gay man and woman they know and say "Let's be friends."

So you would set out to destroy a site based on your points of views and beliefs?

I wouldn't say my intention is to destroy the site. I would say my intention is to destroy bigotry. If this site happens to be a vehicle for bigotry, they have two options... stop promoting it... or take the heat. If the implosion of this website is the side-effect of me going to the media and having them do a story on this issue, well... I have no control over how the public reacts... I just want to let everyone know what's going on here. They can decide for themselves what to do. Predictably, though, the reaction will not be a positive one... but that's not what I'm aiming for. I just want people to be aware. That is all I care about.

I don't care about promoting homosexuality. I don't care about homosexuals and whatever agendas their more vocal groups may have. I don't form any alliances with GLAAD or any such organizations... I couldn't care less about them being homosexual. To me they are no different than anyone else... my core belief is the pursuit of truth.

If you believe so strongly in equality and tolerance, what do you say about more conservative views?

I am reluctant to say anything about tolerance... because it connotes a begrudgingly hostile "permittance" of others to be... whilst maintaining internal feelings of superiority. If I "tolerate" you... It's sort of like, and perhaps you may not have meant it in this sense, I'll let you be there... but I still respect you less than I respect those who are more like myself. I believe in equality.

The day when people aren't consciously aware of a distinction between homosexuals, heterosexuals, blacks, whites, etc. is the day I will feel that the truth has been uncovered. I am almost certain that day will never come, and absolutely certain it will never come in my lifetime.

However, I would never forgive myself if I gave up that fight simply because it is a goal that is unattainable.

I am reminded of something Denzel Washington said when reporters asked him if he thinks that there will be a day when black actors are on equal footing with white actors... He turned to the media, and challenged them to run a story about his Oscar without making any reference whatsoever to the color of his skin.

 

Okay, this wasn't warned on before, but it's going to be now. I'm not having the fanfic forums turn into a stumping ground for confrontational politics of either stripe.

Threats to make the site "implode" are not acceptable, even if it's as a "side effect." If you choose to exercise your right under the free market to express your disapproval by using a different product, then that's fine. But what amounts to a threat of destruction if your demands aren't met is not. That will get a ban if it's done again.

 

Some kid stumbles upon a slash fic on theforce.net, some mother sees it, decides to sue Lucas because he inspired it, Lucas demands all slash fics taken off the internet.

Coota- I'm going to give you the same advice you once gave me- you might want to tone down the dramatics a bit.

As for the majority rule/lack thereof, this sounds more like a controlled majority rule. In other words- the only time the majority rule is in effect is when the mods agree with it. But when the mods agree with something, it's usually implemented anyway, so it all boils down to mod opinion rather than majority rule (which was the case for the split as well- for without mod approval, the vote never would have taken place).

And I will not let this point go. I am going to hammer it in because the line is way too hazy. It's more of a controlled majority rule than anything else. We have the illusion that we can make a difference, but we really don't.

Is a loving relationship so wrong?

There are Star Wars stories that I have lurked on that involve rape. There are Star Wars stories that I have lurked on that involve prostitution. There is a Star Wars story that I have read that involved a relationship with a newly knighted Jedi and a politician of Alderaan, and the Jedi's struggle with his apprentice (in a non-sexual way, of course).

Of those, the third one I highlighted was among the most beautifully written of all Star Wars stories that I have read.

Ever.

If we can't have same sex relationships, what can we have?

What if Lando Calrissian and Mace Windu were played by white actors? Does that mean we would ban stories with black characters?

Of course not. That's ridiculous.

The same can be said with the same sex relationship stories.

 

If Josh doesn't care about the opinions of the people who post on his site... why on earth should be concerned with the future of this site?

As for banning me... do whatever you must... I'd really prefer you delete my username, if possible, as I can no longer, in good conscience, continue to patronize a site that endorses bigotry.

 

As for the majority rule/lack thereof, this sounds more like a controlled majority rule. In other words- the only time the majority rule is in effect is when the mods agree with it. But when the mods agree with something, it's usually implemented anyway, so it all boils down to mod opinion rather than majority rule (which was the case for the split as well- for without mod approval, the vote never would have taken place).


I'm sorry, but that's simply not true at all.

First, the SSR decision is out of the moderator's hands. We as moderators have had no control over this decision. This is TFN, not the JC administration itself. Please understand that.

I would remind you that each of the past several times the split issue came up, it was voted down, and the administration agreed just fine with it.

It has nothing to do with moderators agreeing with it. It's whether it's a subject that's open for the community to vote on.

 

I would remind you that each of the past several times the split issue came up, it was voted down, and the administration agreed just fine with it.

Ah, so that's why it was brought up to vote repeatedly.

It has nothing to do with moderators agreeing with it. It's whether it's a subject that's open for the community to vote on.

The community is open enough to vote on this. But the moderators disagree and this subject is being shot down.

I'm not a mod, nor do I pretend to know what goes on in the so called "ivory tower", but I really do want to know, for future reference.

 

Ah, so that's why it was brought up to vote repeatedly

I can assure you that there has been no hidden agenda by the administration, and that most are unaware of what goes on with this in Fan Fiction. It was brought up as many times as people here deemed it necessary.

The community is open enough to vote on this. But the moderators disagree and this subject is being shot down.


Are you not understanding that the moderators had no control over the decision? None.

This is TFN administration's business, and we have no authority over them whatsoever. They have decreed that the matter is not open to a vote.

Are you understanding that?

I'm not a mod, nor do I pretend to know what goes on in the so called "ivory tower", but I really do want to know, for future reference.

What would you like to know?

 

KW misspoke. It was never voted on before, just discussed. We didn't have any numbers on it, only a rough idea of how many people were talking. It looks to me like there were a lot of people who wanted the split who hadn't spoken.

The community is open enough to vote on this. But the moderators disagree and this subject is being shot down.

The mods have left the thread open to discuss it all you want, until the day Breezy's poll closes (or until someone crosses the line on insults or threats). But the core staff never offered anyone a single assurance (or even hint) that this vote would have been a deciding factor. It should have been checked with them first.

 

*shakes head*

I am reminded by a quote from a famous media mogul... "The newspapers don't tell you what to think. They simply tell you what to think about."

 

I am reminded by a quote from a famous media mogul... "The newspapers don't tell you what to think. They simply tell you what to think about."

What are you trying to say?

What do you not believe from what we're saying?

 

I'm going to take JediGaladriel on her word that she believes we have the last word from Kadue or Josh on this. That being the case, we have a problem:

Even on just this page of the thread different people have different ideas about what is not being allowed because of the differing opinions of the term "slash".

(a.) Is this disallowing any fiction that portrays established characters in homosexual pairings ie "Han/Luke" fic or "Uhura/Padme" etc?

This has always been my understanding of what "slash" is, I personally wouldn't be interested in reading it, would have no problem with it being on this site, but also wouldn't put up a protest if this site banned it based on preference.

or (b.) Is this disallowing any Same Sex Relationship fiction even if it followed the same PG guidelines as Heterosexual fiction on the board, ie a Star Wars fiction, that used the established universe but had original characters who happened to be gay and engaged in G or PG activity?

If so, this a completely different proposition, this would be blatant bigotry, and unacceptable to many people on the board.

Scifi/Fantasy fandom has always been a haven for outcasts or marginalized groups, ie people of different races, the disabled, those who are just plain nerdy and ostracized and others. To allow this board to be somewhere where any of those groups don't feel they can be represented, destroys any credibility it has with these communities.

If the administration will not clarify the rule, further discussion of it is completely pointless. At that point, the history of social change shows us that the only way to change a rule would be to test it.

I suggest all the fiction writers out there who feel it is important to retain the ability to tell a story how they want to (within the fair bounds of propiety the board requires) write a story set in the Star Wars universe with gay characters (not established ones) engaging in physical activity up to, or below, the PG level mandated.

If the stories are allowed, then choice (a.) above is the rule, and for me, the matter is closed.
If it is not accepted, and no other valid reason is given, then choice (b.) is the rule, and we proceed from there with any other action needed.

I am not personally a fiction writer, i'm not that talented or creative, i'm good with words, but more in this kind of context.
If a fiction writer who feels passionately about this issue wants to write a story, but doesn't want to take the heat, i'll post it (if the forum rules allow that).

 

Um, Jaxx, I wasn't being overdramatic, I was giving an overblown case as an example. I even said, in the very next sentence: "This is an overblown case."

And just one of the other things you seem to have misinterpreted:

Someone: "It has nothing to do with moderators agreeing with it. It's whether it's a subject that's open for the community to vote on. "

Jaxx: "The community is open enough to vote on this. But the moderators disagree and this subject is being shot down."

You misinterpreted what that person said, probably not deliberately. What they were trying to say is that the site owners opened the issue to voting, while they did not open this issue to voting.

You changed their words around to say that the community is 'open' as in 'free-willed' to vote on this. The definition of open you used is leagues apart from the definition of open they used. You're arguing something completely different from what they were arguing. That isn't how an argument works.

 

My last public comments:

This poll was ment to bring this discussion to the authors/readers and out of Coms... to the peons of JCF... (myself included)... although I resent the "it wasn't started by a mod yadda yadda yadda" mentality, we all pretty much knew that it was just a public opinion peice that might have some influance on the PTB, of course we also knew that it might not... the petion is linked on the very first page of this thread...

If you disagree with the PTB, a polite PM to the site owner is probably your best bet... more flies with honey folks... more flys with honey...

OK, I've said my little happy speech... back to my corner now...



Addendum

You know, all this ugly talk about "media circuses" and "shutting down the boards" would be tantamount to throwing the baby out with the bath water... You can't convince JCF to change it's policy if JCF no longer exsist...

Please folks... a little compremise IS possible... for those who can write tasteful SSR fics, read the guidelines and then write a GOOD, Strong story that adhears to them... Hey, once people see that SSR aren't all about Luke and Han getting their jollies with each other, others MIGHT slowly come around...



DB listens to the echos of silence and then the roars of BS that are once again tossed around...

 

How do i get my name on the online petition?

 

First, upon looking back at it, I can see that I missed some words in there that made what was being said unclear. The second line will read: "This includes fiction of other genres that....".


Now, to answer a big part of the reason why the decision was made in this direction. Thanks to MyDebateSock for giving a link to some supporting material too.

This site, and all other fan sites, "lives" at the mercy of LFL. As such there are certain guidelines that we have been given, and communications that come to us about what we are and aren't allowed to do. These guidelines though aren't exactly definitive, or all-encompassing. From memory they are about a few lines of general information. They aren't anywhere detailed enough to cover anything more than the basics. One of those is that generally things have to remain family friendly (before people start saying there are those sites out there that aren't, there aren't any that are of the same wide visibility to the general public). There isn't any clarification on what is exactly meant by that "family friendly" though, which means that the exact definition has to be made by the site, and hope for the best. The staff has determined the line in the sand for this site wide.

Now, whether you agree or disagree with it, slash fics can be classed as non-family friendly. So the choice comes down to the staff as to whether or not they would allow it. Because of the high visibility of this site, we are under great scrutiny from LFL people over what we allow, to the point of being more than other, smaller sites are (I still have e-mails telling us to pull certain material that small niche sites were not asked the same of until someone turned around and e-mail LFL asking why some sites were told to remove it and others weren't). This means that in this case, the decision has been to err on the side of caution in deciding what is and isn't allowed. In doing so the material that has been released by LFL was looked at, and that is the benchmark. As such, all that has been written along this line is a single line that is ambiguous as to the full intent, which is what has been taken as the standard as written in the FAQ. Add to this the article that is linked to by MyDebateSock which shows that LFL do have at least some problem with slash fics, and all that is happening is that we are erring on the side of caution as to what is allowed for "publication". There is no site wide ban on homosexuality talk.

Also, this policy is not 100% set in stone for all time. This isn't a direct quote, but once more is given/shown about this issue by LFL in any of the media that they release, then the policy will be looked at again.

 

I heartily agree with what Bithysith and Darth_Snowdog have been saying.

For someone from Holland, for most of Europe possibly, a discussion like this is startling, fascinating almost. I can't get my mind around it. Reading it feels like taking a trip back to the Fifties -- Fifties America. It evokes an atmosphere I feel very uncomfortable with; a strange, strifling atmosphere.

Some people should try and replace the word "homosexual" by "Jew", and read through it again. (Or try: "overweight people", if that drives the point home for you). Putting restrictions on a certain group, effectively localizes that group as being different, placing it outside of what is regarded as acceptable, proper, and "normal". An action like that, is as one of the most horrible, repulsive things someone can do. Sick and dangerous. I'm putting it mildly there for this "family-friendly" messageboard, where games in which you have to blow off the heads of *NSYNC members are allowed.

Think about that.

It's one of the reasons I've slowly been withdrawing from this site. There really is only so much I can stand. By staying, I feel as if I'm supporting those frightening views, that should be seen as what they are: one massive flame to homosexuals. I'd rather cook and eat puke.

I voted the last option.

 

I think Debo said it best. I rarely leave my city forum. When I heard what was happening over here, I had to come and see it for myself. This will be the last time I post anywhere other than there. You can keep your little corner of the world as conservative as you want. You can all nance about in white sheets for all I care. It all just seems sad and pointless.

 

Edit: Nevermind.

 

KADUE, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "SLASH"?

We're now on your second or third response on this without defining it, it's extremely frustrating.

I'm starting to get really angry at the fact that this keeps being used without a TF.N definition, it leaves the impression (which may or may not be correct, only you can confirm or dispell it) that the site (Josh) wants to ban SSR fiction without the courage in his own convictions to say it clearly and plainly.

 

Some people can afford to take stands, because they have nothing to lose. Some of you said it yourself. You're in the Netherlands. You don't own this site. You're not affected by American legalities. If this site did switch over to slash and made a stand on this subject, and Lucas shut them down, it really wouldn't be any skin off your back.

Same thing goes with that person who was *threatening* to get this site shut down by the media just to prove a point. Why does he care? He didn't put years of work into this site, making it one of the biggest Star Wars sites around.

Yeah, it would be brave of Josh to make a stand against bigotry in this country by allowing slash on the site. I'd approve it wholeheartedly. But if he's not willing to risk something he's worked hard on for a long time, I can understand that. Yeah, a lot of the worlds most horrible things have continued because generally innocent people have stood by and did nothing, and I know you'll argue that. But you're forgetting about the people who did stand up and lost everything. They made that choice of their *own free will*. No group of people forced them to by complaining about equal rights and threatening them with media exposure until they fought the good fight.

They chose to do the right thing because it was right. And it was their right to choose *by themselves*, because they were putting a lot on the line.

Josh would be putting this site on the line, if he allowed slash. That's the reality. I don't like it, you don't like it, Europeans disapprove. Big friggin' deal. If he wants to do the right thing, and risk something like this, let him make the choice on his own.