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Full Series Do you like Ahsoka or not?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Completed Shows' started by InterestingLurker, May 20, 2013.

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Do you like or dislike Ahsoka?

  1. I like Ahsoka

    66 vote(s)
    66.7%
  2. I dislike Ahsoka

    32 vote(s)
    32.3%
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  1. Narutakikun

    Narutakikun Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2012
    One would think that somewhere in the above-mentioned caste of ascetic warrior-monks there would be someone who would at least have the sense and backbone of a typical dad of the 1970s - "If think you do that leave this Temple wearing that you will, young padawan, another think coming have you..."
     
  2. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    This may not generate much sympathy, but the old Jedi acted like fools in the movies as well. They were written fairly in character in TCW because of that reason. That's why I have no problem with Ahsoka being the only sane person in the order. All others are either fools or an amoral mass murderer who cares more for friends and family than for ideals and duty.
     
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  3. The Hellhammer

    The Hellhammer Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2012
    Disliked her very much at first. Over the, as the character developed, I began to tolerate her and then even like her.
    I didn't really found her to be too overpowered, everyone did awesome overpowered stuff on that show.
     
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  4. spicer

    spicer Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2012
    I don't like her and I don't dislike her either. If you view her simply as what she is (with ignoring the continiunity mess she made, with the movies especially) I guess she is ok. However I do find her pointless for the overall Star Wars saga, especially the PT. It's obvious that she was made in order to appeal mainly to kids and sell toys, and since I wasn't in the "target" group, I don't find her special at all as a character. And TCW overall made a mess of everything set in the clone wars era, including the end of AOTC and beginning of ROTS, so like others said, I also don't count TCW as part of my personal canon. Therefore I couldn't care less about Ahsoka and can't take her seriously.
     
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  5. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    You're certainly not the only one to express that opinion, but *I* hardly think every Jedi was a fool or every decision of theirs was foolish based on their in-universe knowledge and the clouding of the Force. And if true, it's not right that only Ahsoka is the only thinking, rational, sane Jedi.

    [face_laugh]Yeah, like Punching Bag Kenobi.
     
  6. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    What I'm saying is that it's not hard to stand out if most people around you act foolishly or immoral most of the time. Ahsoka doesn't strike me as overly intelligent, just as normal intelligent. Last arc of season 5 she made many, many mistakes like running away from the people that were trying to help her or hooking up with Ventress of all people.
     
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  7. Narutakikun

    Narutakikun Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2012
    Ahsoka is to some degree a product of what surrounded her. The Jedi of her era tended to think with their lightsabers a lot, with Anakin as probably the worst of the lot. Like father figure, like daughter figure. Again, a bad call on the part of the Order. Just as they should have given Anakin to Mace (who was skeptical of Anakin, likely to keep him on a short leash, and powerful enough to do so) instead of Obi-Wan (who believed far too much in Anakin and the prophecy to reign in his worst qualities) to train, so too they shouldn't have given a padawan to Anakin who was known for being impulsive, hotheaded, and quick to try to solve every problem by cutting it in half with her laser sword. There was a chance that would settle him down by showing him the need to moderate those qualities in his own padawan; but there was just as big a risk that the two of them would become a feedback loop with both just encouraging the other's worst tendencies. That's more or less what happened, and it was bound to end badly.

    A smarter move would have been to give Barriss to Anakin and Ahsoka to Luminara. Barriss's problem is that she was a true believer. It's true believers who often end up going kinda nuts when they get a little bit disillusioned. Ironically, people who are a little bit cynical and have a more realistic view of human nature tend to stick with things that disappoint them sometimes because they never expected perfection from them, and so when those things are shown not to be perfect it is merely disappointing and not a soul-shattering existential crisis for them. The cynic mostly expects the thing they associate themselves with - be it a government, a church, a political party, an institution, or what have you - to have decent intentions and a respectable amount of sense and to do the right thing most of the time, which is pretty much all that you can reasonably ask for. Giving Barriss to someone given to rulebreaking and laconic cynicism like Anakin would have brought more realism to her starry-eyed beliefs.

    Conversely, Ahsoka needed someone to teach her patience, to force her to meditate for a couple of hours a day, to learn to put aside passion, to see the value in solving disputes nonviolently, to learn to negotiate and talk things out, to understand that drawing a lightsaber is a last resort, not a first one. Luminara would have fit that bill nicely.

    But, of course, that's not how things ended up.
     
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  8. Seerow

    Seerow Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2011

    This!

    The final arc of TCW proved that she's still a dumbass insecure teenager beneath all her Jedi power and the maturity she displayed in other parts of season 5. The lack of judgement Aahsoka displayed in taking the keycard, running away, and leaving it to herself to catch the one framing her was among the dumbest things anybody has ever done on the show, possibly with the movies thrown in. She just can't stand to have to answer for crimes she didn't commit or yes have her reputation sullied. In the end yes, it wasn't the most mature thing for her to leave.
     
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  9. Circular Logic

    Circular Logic Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2013
    You know, I think things would not have turned out any better had Anakin been given to Mace. The two simply just did not seem to get along well. But more importantly, recall the story of Depa Billaba in Shatterpoint. She was Mace's former Padawan and she turned to the Dark Side. And then Sora Bulq was trained by Mace on the Vaapad technique, and also fell to the Dark Side. Vapaad had conquered Bulq rather than the other way around. Imagine what might happen if Mace had trained Anakin in Vapaad. Anakin could not only have been an even more powerful duelist, but he would have an excuse to enjoy the fight and tap into the Dark Side, potentially accelerating his fall.
    Wasn't Barriss only two years younger than Anakin, or was that little detail retconned by TCW so they could make her closer to Ahsoka's age? In any case, this is unrealistic because in AotC Barriss was already shown to be Luminara's Padawan as the two were fighting side-by-side on Geonosis. Hence, she couldn't be Anakin's Padawan as he was still a Padawan himself back then, and Luminara already had her own Padawan so couldn't take on Ahsoka. But a good point about their contrasting mindsets, regardless.
    This contrast between Anakin and Luminara in Master-apprentice teaching methods is certainly one of the better parts of the Geonosis arc, IMO.
     
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  10. Narutakikun

    Narutakikun Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2012
    That's kind of the point. Anakin becomes arrogant, overconfident, and unable to see his own mistakes. Well, that kind of thing tends to happen when everyone around you constantly tells you that you're the Chosen One, how great you are, how powerful you are, and what fantastic things you'll accomplish. Mace was the only one on the Council who was totally not impressed by Anakin's Chosen One schtick, and who had both the willingness and the power to keep him under control.

    Yes, they wouldn't have gotten along. Good. Your Jedi master is supposed to be your master, not your buddy. Obi-Wan did fail Anakin, as he would eventually admit - he was way too much of Anakin's buddy, wasn't skeptical enough of him, wasn't tough enough on him, let things go, turned blind eyes, sheltered him, coddled him, flacked for him, and generally enabled him until things got out of control. How'd that turn out for everyone?

    Anakin needed someone who was going to kick his butt more and kiss his butt less.

    Bleh. EU.

    But that's just the point - Mace wouldn't have trained Anakin in it until and unless he was sure he could handle it.

    Besides, things really couldn't have turned out any worse than they did.

    Also, let's look at the chain of masters and apprentices we did get: Yoda -> Dooku -> Qui-Gon -> Obi-Wan -> Anakin -> Ahsoka. There's an inordinate amount of Fail in that chain. Giving ourselves the ability to put the above Jedi into more than one category each, we have two future Sith, two who left the Order in a dramatic fashion, three reckless rulebreakers of oft-questionable morality, five who seriously clashed with the Council on multiple occasions, five who bear at least some responsibility for starting a major galactic war, and six who utterly failed at keeping a Sith Lord from taking over the galaxy. That's not exactly a record you'd want to hold up as an example.
     
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  11. Praenomen Cognomen

    Praenomen Cognomen Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 24, 2013

    This is sounding very "no child left behind" to me. I think this puts a little too much responsibility in the hands of the teacher, and not enough on the nature of the individuals themselves. The way of the Jedi was to teach, not to brainwash... to lead horses to water, but not to make them drink.
     
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  12. Narutakikun

    Narutakikun Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2012
    Hey, it's their system, not mine. All I'm doing is pointing out that it seems not to have worked out as well as advertised. I personally prefer the Sith/New Jedi Order method of taking adults instead of children. The whole purpose of taking them young is to indoctrinate them fully into the ways of the Order, but as you've pointed out, that seems not to have worked.
     
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  13. Praenomen Cognomen

    Praenomen Cognomen Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 24, 2013
    Oh, right, but I guess what I failed to mention about my point (re: the whole no child left behind thing) was, it actually makes sense that a difficult student would be placed with the more respected masters; I wouldn't say it was the master's fault (in the same way that teachers of at-risk youth aren't the reason those youth are at-risk... but because those already-at-risk youth were specifically placed the in at-risk class). Perhaps Qui-Gon was more humble as a child, and Dooku influenced him negatively. After all, Obi-Wan seemed very humble when he was young, so they might have been trying to break the chain all along... and then they tried something different with Anakin (allowing Obi-Wan to keep his promise to train him) and his own apprentice (fight fire with fire).

    But remember, we're not actually seeing the Jedi in their prime, the way we thought we were when TPM came out. We're seeing Jedi with low midichlorian counts after years of abstinence, whose order is actually falling apart. I think that was the narrative intent. I mean, hell, look at GL's influence by Joseph Campbell... a man who was absolutely respectful of spirituality, and absolutely dismissive of organized religion.

    Personally, I find the struggles of organized religion in the real world to be super intriguing, so this is something that really keeps me rapt, and I've given a lot of thought to it. So, you're right, really... their system didn't work, but sometimes people (not you specifically, just people in general) think the Jedi Order was nerfed by mistake, but I'm quite confident that's not the case. The PT was simply the culmination of all their organizational principles (which weren't strictly tied to the light side itself, but were simply mandated to keep internal order) coming back to bite them.
     
  14. Narutakikun

    Narutakikun Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2012
    Campbell was a world-class BS artist, but that's not necessarily a bad thing in someone who inspires fiction.
     
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  15. Praenomen Cognomen

    Praenomen Cognomen Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 24, 2013

    Well yeah, and Lucas more than anyone. I think it just informed his take on the pre-organized versus post-organized Jedi.
     
  16. Narutakikun

    Narutakikun Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2012
    I'm not sure whether you saw my post on the parallels between the Jedi Order in the PT and the modern Catholic Church on another thread; if not, you might be interested.
     
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  17. Praenomen Cognomen

    Praenomen Cognomen Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 24, 2013
    Nice, that's exactly where I'm coming from. So yeah, we're on the same page. I wasn't directing those points at you, so much as making them a part of the greater discussion about Ahsoka and how she's somehow wiser than the Jedi Order (which I think is perfectly viable, all things considered).

    Then again, I think there's a huge amount of complexity which goes into the older Jedi deciding to remain a part of the Order despite its flaws. I think it's interesting, far-sighted, and respectable that many religious people feel that a crucial part of worshiping a true God is to be a part of a greater organization, so they feel that retaining their spirituality independent of organized religion would be pointless (essentially, "Even if my religion is not 100% right all the time, leaving it behind would be 100% wrong of me"). Politically and secularly, that would be viewed as weak or objectionable in some way, but think it's quite wise to see that spirituality can't be treated the same way... and I think that's exactly where the older Jedi like Obi-Wan are; they see the value in standing by, trying to be a force for good within, because that's a principal tenet of the Jedi tradition. The Order itself was deteriorating, but they must have told themselves that there was a better way than simply abandoning it. They didn't know what it was, but they stood by.

    So, comparing that to Ahsoka... I think Ahsoka was acting largely on self-interest, but in a way that was entirely within her rights, and wasn't necessarily unwise. I dunno. I can see both sides, really. Ahsoka may have missed the point of the Order, but she stayed alive, so could anyone blame her? It's really a very complex thing.
     
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  18. WatTamborWoo

    WatTamborWoo Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 22, 2011
    This and This!

    I think Season 5 was written brilliantly. In fact Dave Filoni said to Ashley Eckstein (on the SW website blog) that Ahsoka acts in an immature way in the end because she certainly does not understand the persepctive of the Jedi Council.

    Indeed, Season 5 shows the "fog" that the Jedi had entered by being so heavily involved in the War effort. Since their role had changed from what they understood themselves top be it affected how they were as Jedi. They were doing things that strained their own code and the spiritual aspect of their lives. Supporting the insurgency on Onderon, using Hondo to bring in illegal weapons, even Obi-Wan, probably one of the most sensible of the Jedi, goes off alone to help Satine. They had become a contradiction to themselves. It is why the demonstrations against the Jedi at the end was believable. Indeed the contradiction could be seen with the people who worked for them (eg: badly paid - Letta's husband) whilst they lived simple but relatively privilaged lives (eg: Ahsoka says the republic would pay a ransom for her). Ahsoka's bad decisions (and "arrogance") reflect the muddle the Jedi were in themselves.
     
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