Lit Do you like the new canon?

I liked episode 7, Lost Stars (best Star Wars book of them all imo), Aftermath Trilogy, and most of the comics. However, overall most of the new canon is boring to me. The books and comics feel like companion pieces to the movies that are not allowed to do anything cool. RO and TLJ are my least favourite Star Wars movies (I still like them, just not nearly as much.)

On the other hand, EU was amazing. I have not really found much I do not like there. Thrawn I could not get through (still trying) but the Bane trilogy was fantastic. I loved LTOTS and most comics I read, KOTOR was my absolute favourite piece of Legends. (I love Revan.)

EU > NU however I still enjoy both.

Full disclaimer though, I know my opinions are unpopular among most Star Wars fans. TPM and ROTS are my fave canon movies, I loved the Ewok movies and Holiday Special, and I really am enjoying the Vong series. I really wish I could find more fans who had similar tastes but I feel like I may be one in a million with my opinions lol.

 

What is "essential" about the Thrawn trilogy? There were some babies born in it who became pretty important later, but that is also true of Aftermath. I can't think of any important character beats in that series. If anything, the characters devolved to their The Empire Strikes Back personalities (looking at Han and Lando especially there).

What is "essential" about Tales of the Jedi? It was designed to be just the opposite of essential, to be so far away from any of the already established "canon" that they could do whatever they wanted without potentially hurting other plans (after the weird antagonism between the Thrawn trilogy and Dark Empire).

Dark Empire I'll grant you. I love Dark Empire, the books and comics will probably never make something like Dark Empire again. Part of why they won't, though, is because from the day it came out you had people being just as bitter about it as people are now about the sequel trilogy.

I didn't bring up video games for a reason. I am enjoying the heavily discounted copy of Battlefront II that I got, but I am pretty bummed about the overall situation there.

I'm admittedly a little behind on the comics, but I can't for the life of me remember this "abusive" Leia you've mentioned. I've seen Leia take some A New Hope-style jabs at her friends, but, well, see A New Hope. The characterization is lightyears above the princess who swings wildly from haughty to terrified, who needs the boy from a desert planet to save her from drowning in Splinter of the Mind's Eye (good lord what a stupid element to put in that book).

Ok, but that comic started in year thirty of the old Expanded Universe, not in year three. Or it started in year fifteen, I dunno, people always call the EU "thirty-five years of canon" until I try to talk about the actual beginning of it, and then they say "Oh no, nothing before Zahn really counts."

So check back with me in 2029, or better yet, 2044.

That's... not a discontinuity at all.

So?

It's the Resurrection of the Empire, they're really explicit about it in the game.

So you're mad that the movie... hasn't come out yet? Or that, if it doesn't come up in IX, you'll need to read a book about it?

Did you miss the scene in VII where Kylo is literally praying to his grandfather for guidance? Or that, again, IX hasn't come out yet?

The old EU fell apart when Timothy Zahn decided that Shira Brie should be renamed Mara Jade.

 

I am just guessing from China it's completely different. Did your friends know who Leonard Nimoy was? Because mine didn't. It's the equivalent of Casino Royale having Sean Connery show up as future Bond to tell Daniel Craig to always ask for 'shaken, not stirred'. They don't look anything alike and this old guy is claiming he's from the future. Only someone with a familiarity with Bond's history will not be completely lost.

 

Who Spock is is explained in the movie. If you know who Nimoy is that makes it extra special, if you don't, it's not special, but it doesn't ruin the movie or make it incomprehensible because Nimoy Spock explains who he is and why he is there.

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I'm a bit tired to go at it with you point by point, so I guess we can just agree to disagree. Your signature though sort of correlates to what I'm clashing with on Leia's interpretation--"EVERYBODY STOP YELLING BUT ME!" - Leia Organa, Star Wars #18

You are right, she may have signs of this in the films. For what it's worth, I'm against Han being portrayed as a gambler who gambles the Rebellion's money away too. If Han were the only key male in the franchise, I'd still be against him being portrayed this way especially if he's the "representative" for my entire gender, and I have similar feelings towards Leia being portrayed as this yeller when she's the key female in the franchise, and while I can only guess, I'd imagine I'd feel the same way if I were a woman, but I don't know.

I'm looking forward to Solo. Like I said, 7 and 8 were bad for me but RO was great for me. I'm hoping Solo can be a home run and at least make the new movies "half-great" to me.

RO Catalyst hit the right balance of being relevant, yet not necessary to understand the film. Bloodline and Aftermath don't do this for me.

 

The Thrawn Trilogy and Dark Empire are story wise the equivalent of the Sequel Trilogy. They told the stories about the main heroes of the OT after ROTJ. Back then they were as essential as the ST is today. Of course, they are not essential today in light of the ST as told in the movies, but if no ST was ever filmed, then The Thrawn Trilogy, Dark Empire, the NJO, Legacy etc etc would serve that purpose. In fact, that's the purpose they served until the Episode VII announcement. Unless one is an OT purist or prefers Star Wars to have ended for good with ROTJ, then I guess these stories would not be essential to that person, but then neither would TFA, TLJ and Episode IX.

Tales of the Jedi established the ancient history of the galaxy and some of the key players in it. It was referenced quite often in other EU stories and some elements are slowly being re-canonized today. It's essential due to its world building and influence on subsequent stories in both continuities.

Whether you like any of these stories or not is an entirely different matter (personally, I am not a fan of Dark Empire), but their influence on the lore cannot be understated.

I brought the VG argument as I thought it was worth mentioning in the conversation, but it wasn't directed at you specifically or anyone else.

 

I guess we will find out the answer to this hypothetical scenerio in 2033.

The TFN boards will be rampant with fan outrage in 2033. I'm calling it now!

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The 15 year bit was random, no need to take it so literally

 

Star Trek Online and other tie-in works have done a good job with their EU. I don't see a lot of criticism for Star Trek Online's handling of how they are moving forward the TNG universe.

One has to take into account the content of what people are complaining about. Don't write it off as complaining for complaining sake. For instance there are few complaints about Star Trek Online's story handling now--it's not as controversial as say Discovery for instance. But if STO ran a story where the Borg were assimilating the Federation, and Picard was hiding on a vineyard in France because he had Troi read the emotions of a cadet while asleep and the cadet took it badly--yeah, there would be complaints. A lot of complaints. It's the content of this material that people are complaining about, not just complaining for complaining's sake.

 

I meant it tongue-in-cheek

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ST
E7 is TTT
E8 is DET
E9 is JAT
E10-12 is the NJO series
E13-15 is DNT/LOTF/FOTJ
E16-18 is the Legacy comics.

 

Okay, flashback to 2011, before the sequel trilogy was a thing. I would still ask the same question. What happens in The Thrawn Trilogy that is "essential" to the story of Luke and Leia, Han and Chewie? If the answer is just "this is what happened after Return of the Jedi" then Aftermath is just as "essential", invalidating the idea that none of the current books are as "essential" as the old Expanded Universe.

 

Edited your post a bit to answer the question. Formulated like that, TTT was as essential as the ST because it not only tells what happens after ROTJ, but also tells essential stories about the all of the main heroes. That's distinct from Aftermath.

 

I guess I just don't understand what's "essential" about "after defeating THE EMPEROR our heroes... didn't really succeed in defeating this random underling of the Emperor's, good thing the bad guys are willing to kill their own kind."

 

Going by that logic, you can make a very similar argument about Snoke and all the random underlings that founded the First Order. Which would then beg the question (again, going by the aformentioned logic) what's essential about the ST.

 

I'm guessing the ST's relevance is in showing how the OT characters died. Just like the OT's relevance is in showing how the PT (Kenobi, Yoda, Anakin, Palpatine) characters died...

In which case the EU ST isn't anything published yet, but something between Crucible and Legacy.

EU 7: A new group known as the Knights of Ren build a superweapon on Ilum. In attempting to destroy this weapon, Han is killed by the Master of the Knights of Ren.
EU 8: Luke is killed by Force projecting himself into combat against the Master of the Knights of Ren. Ben Skywalker and the NJO are saddened and puzzled as this power never killed Luke before.
EU 9: ...?

 

There's 64 books? What? How many of them are aimed at people older than 14? ONTOP of that.... how much of them have any SUBSTANCE to them? "Chewbacca and the Porgs" is a book in the new canon.... but has zero substance. Adds zero to the universe. Etc.

At least the first 15 books of the Bantam era (I'm assuming that's Thrawn Trilogy, Jedi Academy Trilogy, Truce of Bakura, the anthologies.... and start of Rogue Squadron?, my dating might be off on these), at least these books added to the universe, pushed the timeline and storylines forward, and added much more than these so-called "64 books" you reference.

 

At least the first 3 years of the EU had it's charm, like this gem from 1979: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Mystery_of_the_Rebellious_Robot . Most of the children's books released now like this Chewie and the Porgs are rather dull...

 

I agree with your point that the Thrawn trilogy leaves Han, Luke, and Leia frozen in amber after Return of the Jedi until Heir to the Empire -- I believe Luke even thinks during the battle at Nkllon that this is the first time he's flown an X-Wing in combat since he became a Jedi -- and doesn't do anything to develop their characters so that they are any different at the end of The Last Command as characters than they were at the start of Heir to the Empire. It's a major flaw for the Thrawn trilogy and also part of the reason why the Bantam continuity is so wonky for the characters, given any development that might occur between ROTJ and HTTE has to be reset.

Dark Empire, at least, had arcs for Luke and Leia: Luke need to shoulder the burden as the last Jedi drifted toward egoism leading him to the dark side, and Leia's growth into becoming a Jedi. But Dark Empire II and Empire's End kind of and definitely sucked, respectively.

 

The PT is the story of the person that gave rise to the Empire and destroyed the Jedi Order.
The OT is the story of the person that defeated the Empire
The ST is the story of the person that began the New Jedi Order.

In the end we will be able to put all these movies together just as they said we would because it will end up being about the destruction and then reemergence of the Jedi Order.

 

Exactly. The post ROTJ Legends was about the person that began the New Jedi Order, just like the ST.

 

In a way you can say that. But for the most part it was just a continuation of Han, Luke, and Leia's story. The three sets of movies have different main characters in each set. The way Legends was set up it would be like saying the exact same set of characters were the heroes in three separate wars.

 

what are we arguing about

 

You forget the part where the New Jedi Order was destroyed. Ultimately Luke's work failed and he died so a new kid could finish it for him. I'm not saying this is objectively good or bad either. But it is a fact.

The more I look at it this way the more tragic the heroes seem. They fight to destroy the Empire only to die by the ghosts of the Empire.

 

not as bad as the short stick Obi-Wan got