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Lit Do you like the new canon?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Lord Sith Harloxzz, Sep 8, 2017.

  1. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    Yeah. Those tweets are either unaware of or choosing to ignore the fact that Tarkin and Mothma both received deeper characterization in Legends, too. "But most importantly, both are more than what they were in the OT movies they were featured in." ... That's the most important aspect of the canon reboot? Give me a break.

    Don't get me wrong --- praising the directions that characters are getting taken in the new EU is all well and good --- but it's the pretending that it's new and revolutionary and that it didn't happen in the old EU that makes me shake my head. Granted, Tarkin and Mothma's rebellion-era characterization in Legends came mostly from Sourcebooks rather than literature, but seriously, read this article and try to tell me that Tarkin wasn't "more than what he was in the OT movies" before 2014.

    Besides, Luceno's novel would have fit perfectly into the old EU with only about three words needing to be changed.

    I agree completely with the initial tweet --- "When Lucasfilm rebooted the Star Wars canon a few years ago, they weeded out a confusing and contradictory timeline, allowing them to focus on the saga moving forward. It was a necessary move" --- but after that it just becomes gushingly dishonest. "The canon reboot has deepened the saga. It's given us new viewpoints on the characters we love. But it has also elevated some supporting characters. And that's good. That's very, very good." Oh wow! Deepening the saga? Giving us new viewpoints on classic characters? Elevating supporting characters? I can't believe Legends never thought of any of that!
     
  2. jSarek

    jSarek VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2005
    All members of the Rebel Alliance are rebels, but not all rebels are members of the Rebel Alliance. Not now, not in Legends. (Though The Positive Fan is correct in pointing out that the new canon is better at pointing this out than Legends generally was.)
     
  3. The Positive Fan

    The Positive Fan Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2015
    That's because the OT takes place two years after the formation of the Rebel Alliance, at a point where the terms basically do mean the same thing.
     
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  4. JediBatman

    JediBatman Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 3, 2015
    Yeah there's a bit of nostalgia goggles going on here. Do I need to link to the "Ruined Forever" page again? This is nothing new (although sadly the harassment by some fans is nothing new either . . .) And as far as the "video game scandal" goes, the backlash has been against EA, not Lucasfilm.

    That's because in that episode she gets so pissed off at the Ghorman Massacre she publicly calls Palpatine a "lying executioner", meaning she can no longer pretend to be loyal to the Empire and has to go on the run. She was fighting the Empire before, but now she's exposed.
     
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  5. TheAvengerButton

    TheAvengerButton Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2011
    Yeah, sorry. I remember the EU having way more problems with continuity, outright ignoring other works and just being generally bad.

    IMO, the EU was mostly bad--when there were highs, they were mighty high though. The new canon thus far has been better at connective tissue.
     
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  6. Christus Regnet

    Christus Regnet Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2016
    That was kind of out of the blue.

    Anyways, I don't see that at all. At least not yet. One only need look to the wookie page of any pre-2014 book and see the enormous list of references to other [books] characters, places, events, species, planets, et al. It's quite staggering. The new EU will need to be built up more to get there, but the way SW books are written hasn't changed at all, like the process in which a story is conceived, and an author goes about his/her task is all the same. It's mostly the same people watching over continuity, in the same way they always have.

    As for "Rebellion" vs "Rebel Alliance," Rebel Alliance sort of indicates an alliance of various rebels. If the new EU has explored "factions" more, that's sort of the premise of Rebels(a TV show), and would be akin to saying "We've gotten to explore the clone army a lot more because of The Clone Wars." Along with rebooting the EU/SW, came a new focus on the OT era, which wasn't the case pre-2014. There wasn't as much interest in "Rebels vs Empire" before. They've been producing and marketing material for an almost untapped reservoir. That's not to say that things like "factions" weren't explored. The "falling out" of Mon Mothma and Saw is similar, and may have inspiration from the falling out of Mon Mothma and Bel Iblis, in which Bel Iblis went off and launched his own separate rebellion, refusing to work with the alliance, and vice versa(just like Saw).
     
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  7. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    I can't speak for everyone else, but I remember eagerly reading each new comic and novel in that timeframe, where
    Apparently from another post here Rebel Files or some reference guide shows there WAS a formal censure of Saw. But we never saw this in Rebels, and this wasn't even in a novel but in some reference guide. This censure is indicated in Rogue One but NOT in Rebels itself which like you said reduced it to a phone call. That incongruity between prime sources (tv shows, movies, novels, games--but few people read reference guides) is what I find jarring.

    If Mon Mothma was such a big deal, how come Zeb never heard of her? Zeb is a leading rebel by Secret Cargo. He says something like 'Wow, I can't believe she said that and lived' like he never heard of her before, rather than 'Wow, she's finally being straightforward about her ties with us.'

    In fact, the Senators working with the Rebels from the start were Bail (he was seen in an episode) and Trayvis (who ended up being a traitor all along). NOT Mon Mothma.
    I can't speak for everyone else, but I remember eagerly reading each new comic and novel in that timeframe, whereas now I can't be bothered honestly. Also, all the video games in those days we don't have now, which even new canon fans have to admit is true (the few games we have now are freemium type games or plots to continually give money i.e. the whole lootbox mess for BF2. New BF1 didn't even have a single player campaign!).
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 10:12 AM
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  8. The Positive Fan

    The Positive Fan Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 19, 2015
    You're working very hard to create a continuity problem where none exists. The growing schism between Saw and Mothma is clearly depicted over the course of "Ghosts of Geonosis," "In the Name of the Rebellion," and "Rogue One," by which point Saw is no longer on speaking terms with the Alliance. What the audience needs to know is communicated in the episodes; the stuff the geeks want more information about is communicated later on in reference books.
     
  9. HEDGESMFG

    HEDGESMFG Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2010
    I've said this before, and I'll say it once more...

    I don't really have a problem with a canon purge for certain parts of the timeline. Most post ROTJ content needed a reboot to properly handle a new trilogys' continuity anyway.

    But most pre-Rebels era continuity (6BBY or earlier) greatly fleshed out not only the prequels, but the entire SW universe itself. Tossing all of it out uncerimoniously really was a disservice to the franchise IMHO. Yes, they can re-reference stories/events back into existence.... and even have been doing that, but after 4 films, I've still seen very little from the PT/early Dark Times era that either needed to replace the old, or greatly improved upon it. (I'm not counting TCW here as that was at least initially written with the EU still partially in mind... even if halfheartedly.)
     
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  10. H-BOMB

    H-BOMB Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 21, 2009
    For the most part, I've enjoyed the new canon.

    Lately, though . . . been kinda bored with it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 12:27 PM
  11. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Well, to be fair, there's not been much of it.

    There's the comics, couple of books.... That's it.
     
  12. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    I'm not "creating" continuity problems so much as pointing out that if the intent in new canon is to make Mothma feel like a more organic essential part of the Rebellion from the start (which was the initial contention we are discussing), it is being done very strangely. She is not mentioned at all in the first 2 seasons of Rebels. Suddenly she appears in Season 3 and Zeb clearly hadn't heard of her or her importance before her speech, and in the beginning of Season 4 she is single-handedly calling shots and orders that even Zeb has to follow (who didn't even know her a few months ago). It's forced. I'm trying to remember the Saw schism episode, but basically what we have from what I recall is an issue where Mothma speaks for the entire Alliance in ousting Saw when she had openly declared herself a Rebel probably a few months ago. That's how Rebels comes across as. There's no consultation with anyone else who've been openly with the Rebels longer, like Dodonna, Syndulla, etc. Even Ezra and Sabine were openly with the rebels longer and they now have to wonder whether to obey newcomer Mothma when they end up on an adventure with Saw. It feels very strange.

    Wolverine may have been fighting for mutant rights in the background for a long time (fighting Weapon X and Stryker), but this would be like him joining the X-Men in the 2000 film and kicking Cyclops out just because he doesn't like him without consulting Xavier. Even if some reference guide says he chatted with Xavier offscreen, this theoretical movie would feel very strange.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 12:48 PM
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  13. Jedi Princess

    Jedi Princess Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Was Mon Mothma's work with the early Rebellion detailed in Legends in anything other than a reference book? She shows up in Matthew Wood's Star Wars, but even that is after A New Hope.

    It's being done from the point of view of the characters in the show, who pointedly do not have access to the upper echelons of the movement. I'm sorry they didn't make the Mon Mothma West Wing-style cartoon you seem to have wanted, but from beginning to end Rebels was about that team, to the point that the Alliance is in, what, half a season? And doesn't even show up for the finale?

    Zeb says "Wow! Did she really say that about the Emperor? I'm surprised she's still breathing." Nothing about that implies he's never heard of her before. Do you really want every line out of a character's mouth to be a clunky exposition dump? How explicit does the dialogue have to be before you'll entertain an idea other than the most limited and limiting interpretation?
     
  14. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader does show her discussing the very earliest plans with Bail. And in the ROTS novel, Padme alludes to Mon Mothma and Bail already being in the process of setting up the Rebellion, while Palpatine is making his Safe And Secure Society speech:


    Bail couldn't hear Padme over the din, but he could read her lips.
    So this is how liberty dies, she was saying to herself. With cheering, and applause.
    "We can't let this happen!" Bail lurched to his feet. "I have to get to my pod—we can still enter a motion—"
    "No." Her hand seized his arm with astonishing strength, and for the first time since he'd arrived, she looked straight into his eyes. "No, Bail, you can't enter a motion. You can't. Fang Zar has already been arrested, and Tundra Dowmeia, and it won't be long until the entire Delegation of the Two Thousand are declared enemies of the state. You stayed off that list for good reason; don't add your name by what you do today."
    "But I can't just stand by and
    watch—"
    "You're right. You can't just watch. You have to vote for him."

    "What?"
    "Bail, it's the only way. It's the only hope you have of remaining in a position to do anyone any good. Vote for Palpatine. Vote for the Empire. Make Mon Mothma vote for him too. Be good little Senators. Mind your manners and keep your heads down. And keep doing... all those things we can't talk about. All those things I can't know. Promise me, Bail."

    "Padme, what you're talking about—what we're not talking about—it could take twenty years! Are you under suspicion? What are you going to do?"
    "Don't worry about me," she said distantly. "I don't know I'll live that long."
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 1:23 PM
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  15. The Positive Fan

    The Positive Fan Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2015

    As I hope this clip makes clear, Mothma did not "oust" Saw from an organization he was never a part of (and thus could not be ousted from) during this conversation - nor was there need for Mothma to "consult" with anyone about it.

    (How awesome is Forest Whitaker's performance in this clip, BTW?)
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 1:25 PM
  16. Jedi Princess

    Jedi Princess Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Right, but that era and her actions in it are still canon, even if the details aren't. I meant the Rebels/Rogue One era, since that's what a number of people here are implying was better than what we have.

    Edited to add: Replying to @Iron_lord above.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 1:26 PM
  17. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    That's just it though, Rise of Darth Vader isn't in the new canon. Novels detailing Mothma's work from the start are now reduced to guides or databank entries.

    I am just going to say it (bolded the quote for emphasis): this sentence comes across as not as diplomatic as one would expect in a civil discussion, and is addressing a poster and not the Star Wars work itself. Just because an opinion is different than yours does not make it the most limited interpretation, and I never said that anyone else's interpretation was "limited" and never used those words.

    As stated above, with the loss of works like Dark Lord, Mothma's claim to leadership is now more murky for a new audience. Even if Zeb has heard of her before, the audience does not. We know that Mon Mothma will be a leader in the Alliance because of old canon, but one can't see how this happens just from watching Rebels--she goes from newcomer to leader in a few episodes. Without the force of material like 'Dark Lord' behind it, a reader of the new canon in chronological order (novels, comic books, games, films/tv) will be jarred. Then by Rebel Rising Mothma is already the "presumed leader of the Rebel Alliance". With material like Dark Lord gone, this comes off as far more clunky in the new canon. I'm not attacking any other poster or saying their view is limited; I'm attacking the material in Rebels itself, and it's sad that some posters use this to presume the right to make judgments on the character of the poster with differing views.

    This topic is about whether one likes the new canon. I've stayed on topic and refrained from discussing other posters or namecalling (limited, etc) their opinions.
    Forrest is great. Doesn't this conflict that some reference guide says they did oust him though?

    While canonically there may be no contradictions, the way it's shot makes it seem that Mothma has a lot of power not letting Saw (who could be a great asset) in on their operations, whereas Rogue One has a massive consultation on decision making that Mon Mothma is only one party to.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 1:43 PM
  18. Jedi Princess

    Jedi Princess Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Is there a word you would rather I use to describe the repeated instances in which you interpret the text in a way that limits that text? Because I thought I was stating a fact about your interpretation of Zeb's lines; several users have interpreted them in a way that opens possibilities, you interpreted them in a way that limits them, and you do so frequently in our conversations.

    Also you're changing the goalposts now, from "Zeb doesn't know" to "the audience doesn't know", and expecting me not to notice because you're doing it while calling me out for being "uncivil". I don't love that. Don't really like it either.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  19. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The Force Unleashed (and some allusions in Han Solo Trilogy Book 3: Rebel Dawn) are the "Mon Mothma involved in setting up the Alliance" Legends stories.


    Before that, there was the ROTJ novelization - which, interestingly, implies she was not made the sole leader until after ANH:


    Mon Mothma entered the room. A stately, beautiful woman of middle age, she seemed to walk above the murmurs of the crowd. She wore white robes with gold braiding, and her severity was not without cause—for she was the elected leader of the Rebel Alliance.
    Like Leia's adopted father—like Palpatine the Emperor himself—Mon Mothma had been a senior senator of the Republic, a member of the High Council. When the Republic had begun to crumble, Mon Mothma had remained a senator until the end, organizing dissent, stabilizing the increasingly ineffectual government.
    She had organized cells, too, toward the end. Pockets of resistance, each of which was unaware of the identity of the others—each of which was responsible for inciting revolt against the Empire when it finally made itself manifest.
    There had been other leaders, but many were killed when the Empire's first Death Star annihilated the planet Alderaan. Leia's adopted father died in that calamity.
    Mon Mothma went underground. She joined her political cells with the thousands of guerrillas and insurgents the Empire's cruel dictatorship had spawned.
    Thousands more joined this Rebel Alliance. Mon Mothma became the acknowledged leader of all the galaxy's creatures who had been left homeless by the Emperor. Homeless, but not without hope.
     
  20. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    Yes, don't namecall an opinion you don't agree with at all. Just say you don't agree.

    Again there are assumptions in my supposed motives by saying "I am changing goalposts" and "expecting you not to notice because calling you out for being uncivil". This just isn't true, and I believe I am the only one who would actually know what I am thinking. Yet your second paragraph is worded as a fact, not as an assumption. And an overall discussion about a poster, again, and not the material.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 1:50 PM
  21. Jedi Princess

    Jedi Princess Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Fine. I don't agree. I don't agree that I was name calling either, but whatever. You get to decide for both of us.

    Bye, sorry.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 1:51 PM
  22. JediBatman

    JediBatman Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 3, 2015
    Honestly even during Legends there's been periods when my interest waxed and waned, it all depended on what was coming out at the moment. Plus there's always stuff I have to catch up on.

    I wouldn't agree with the "generally bad" part. But I do think that while Legends had more variety but less cohesiveness, Canon has more cohesiveness but less variety. (Although I thought Legends reference books like The Essential Atlas did a good job of making the sometimes contradictory stories feel cohisive).
     
  23. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2007
    I think that's still one of my major problems with nu-canon. There's not much going on. Back in the day we had like a new novel every other month? Sometimes the quality really suffered but we also had some excellent ones too. I'm not surprised the nu-EU hasn't done much, not with the sequels as a weak foundation for everything else. One of the things I hate most about the sequels is that they basically shut down a lot of story avenues. From Jakku to TFA there's not much going on (with the Bloodline novel and a few other tiny short stories being the best we can hope for, maybe the Poe comic) and due to how TLJ killed off almost everybody, and due to their worry over spoilers, we won't get any post-TLJ stuff until just before IX (or maybe not even then).

    The old EU was a mess, but sometimes it was a beautiful mess, as demonstrated by works like the Atlas and Warfare guides. I fondly remember the WotC sourcebooks too (the KotOR, Legacy, Unknown Regions, etc.). It ended up that way after decades of haphazard management (if there was anyone managing it at all during some years). The nu-EU is almost starting from scratch but should have also learned a lot of lessons from the old, but there's not much going on.

    The only kind of high-profile game we've gotten is the Battlefront series and, well, that hasn't exactly been good press (maybe EA will learn their lesson by the time they rush out Battlefront III to coincide with IX... hm, nah). Rebels was ok, but that's over by now and there's not much big Star Wars stuff going on at the moment. The prequels were far from perfect (and sad to hear how the actors were treated, if unsurprising given how people are) but I remember a lot going on back then, especially once the Clone Wars kicked off. New games and books and comics, attempts at integrating older canon (which sometimes worked and sometimes didn't), but the only big thing I can think of is probably... Resistance? Which probably also will be restricted so as to avoid IX spoilers.
     
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  24. Jedi Princess

    Jedi Princess Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Not much is going on? There have been as many movies in the last three years of Star Wars as there were in the first twenty-five!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  25. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    But... did you read his post? He was talking about the EU surrounding those movies, not the movies themselves. About how the movies haven't opened the doors to a compelling expanded universe. About how the prequel era was exciting because from 1999 to 2002 there were books and comics set between Eps. 1 and 2, and from '02 to '05 there were a ton of Clone Wars books and comics. "There have been four movies in the past three years" isn't a counter to that.